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15:02:32 <tpac-breakout-bot> Meeting: Trust the Origin, Trust the Content - Originator Profile
15:02:32 <tpac-breakout-bot> Chair: Michiko Kuriyama, Shigeya Suzuki
15:02:32 <tpac-breakout-bot> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2024-breakouts/issues/90
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15:02:33 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, clear agenda
15:02:33 <Zakim> agenda cleared
15:02:33 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe
15:02:34 <Zakim> agendum 1 added
15:02:34 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
15:02:34 <Zakim> agendum 2 added
15:02:34 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session
15:02:35 <Zakim> agendum 3 added
15:02:36 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Discussion
15:02:36 <Zakim> agendum 4 added
15:02:36 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
15:02:37 <Zakim> agendum 5 added
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15:29:32 <kazho> present+ Kazuhiro_Hoya
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15:30:27 <dom> Present+ Dominique Hazael-Massieux, Chris_Needham, Martin_Thomson, Rick_Byers, Anthony_Nadalin
15:30:39 <shiestyle> present+
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15:30:44 <naomi> present+ dom, sheistyle, tantek, shigeya, kurosaka, Jay, osamu, mgarrish, Jun, hiroki_endo, oomata, dynamis6,
15:30:53 <cpn> present+ Chris_Needham
15:30:54 <naomi> Michiko: welcome to OP breakout session
15:31:03 <dom> Present+ Max_Gendler
15:31:09 <naomi> ... to our discussion we welcome your input
15:31:18 <naomi> ... to explore our solution
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15:31:41 <naomi> [Michiko explains slides]
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15:32:01 <gendler> present+
15:32:29 <naomi> ... if this fake informatioon distributed, people will get trouble
15:32:37 <naomi> ... how we can avold this kind of situation
15:32:48 <dom> Present+ Leonie_Watson, Wendy_Reid, Tzviya_Siegman
15:33:02 <naomi> ... technology can and should help that
15:33:15 <naomi> ... OP collabolated with partnership, established 2023
15:33:30 <naomi> ... including local newspapers, publishers, etc
15:33:44 <naomi> ... global orgs are participating as well
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15:35:03 <naomi> [Michiko shows an example of Yomiuri shimbun online]
15:35:08 <wendyreid> present+
15:35:47 <naomi> ... in a further small window, you can see info which can be seen easy way with safe way
15:36:00 <naomi> [we are watching a video how OP works]
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15:36:31 <tzviya8> present+
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15:38:15 <naomi> present+ ryuichi, Wendy_Reid, Leonie_Watson, Daisuke_Kodajima, Bert, Takahiro_Aritaki
15:38:30 <mt> was that 2 trillion USD or JPY?  big difference between the pictures and words
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15:42:24 <kazho> q?
15:42:40 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
15:42:41 <naomi> Michiko: mt, 2 trillion is JPY. We will share the video and materials later
15:42:44 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:42:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-trust-origin-minutes.html kaz
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15:42:59 <naomi> Shigeya: about design of OP
15:43:15 <naomi> ... we are adding content attestation, not only the entire web page
15:43:26 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura
15:43:34 <duga> present+
15:43:34 <naomi> ... 1, identity, data model and presentation
15:43:42 <naomi> ... government info as well
15:43:59 <kaz> i|welcome to OP|topic: Organization|
15:44:04 <naomi> ... OP is bit generalize to the web pages
15:44:11 <rbyers> present+
15:44:12 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:44:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-trust-origin-minutes.html kaz
15:44:22 <naomi> ... inside of content attesttation set, it provides proof and link to sites
15:44:37 <naomi> ... which consists of key materials and @1
15:44:45 <estark> present+
15:45:12 <kaz> scribenick: kaz
15:45:20 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:45:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-trust-origin-minutes.html kaz
15:45:27 <mt> is this technical material available anywhere?  The o-p website still says that English material is not available yet
15:45:46 <naomi> s/key materials and @1/Core Profile, Web Media Profile and one more Profile Annotations/
15:46:00 <kaz> i/welcome to/scribenick: naomi/
15:46:26 <kaz> i/about design of/topic: Technical explanations/
15:46:36 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:46:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-trust-origin-minutes.html kaz
15:46:48 <kaz> shigeya: (talks about the key points)
15:46:57 <kaz> ... Identity
15:47:16 <kaz> ... OP includes both human redableand machine processabile information
15:47:54 <kaz> ... consisting of Core Profile, Web Media Profile and Profile @@@
15:48:03 <Bert> s/redableand/redable and
15:48:12 <kaz> ... Presentation
15:48:29 <kaz> ... implemented as browser extension
15:48:37 <kaz> ... Baseline Governance Framework
15:48:48 <kaz> ... profile issuers for initial deployment
15:48:55 <Bert> s/processabile/processable
15:49:21 <kaz> ... core profile, app-specific profile and organization profile
15:49:47 <kaz> ... JP newspapers, 3rd-party embership certification
15:49:56 <kaz> ... Chain of Trust and Machine Processing
15:50:20 <kaz> ... designed to allow lightweight decision making
15:50:50 <kaz> ... OP consumers can decide whether accept of reject
15:51:29 <kaz> ... Gaps OP fils
15:51:38 <kaz> ... identity vs X.509 PKI
15:52:01 <kaz> ... scalability challenges there
15:52:05 <kaz> ... Development Status
15:52:17 <kaz> ... initial development done
15:52:26 <kaz> ... 3 phases
15:52:43 <kaz> ... 1. limited number f media outlets
15:53:01 <kaz> ... 2. outlet via aggregators, digital ads
15:53:07 <kaz> ... 3. local gov outlets
15:53:16 <kaz> ... Standardization and Discussions
15:53:26 <kaz> ... data, identity and presentation
15:54:11 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:54:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-trust-origin-minutes.html kaz
15:54:25 <kaz> ... when to start verification?
15:54:48 <Bert> s/ f / of /
15:55:09 <kaz> ... SRI for external resources and SRI extension (1)
15:55:35 <kaz> ... content attestation includes integrity property
15:55:56 <kaz> ... select HTML elements with CSS selectors
15:56:06 <kaz> ... SRI for external resources and SRI extension (2)
15:56:17 <kaz> ... support SRI for additional external resource types
15:56:28 <kazho> q?
15:56:43 <kaz> ... define integrity property for multiple resource with single tag
15:57:08 <kaz> michiko: (notes we'll share the slides later)
15:57:12 <wendyreid> q+
15:57:26 <kazho> ack w
15:57:26 <mt> q+
15:57:28 <cpn> q+
15:57:48 <kaz> wendy: any example?
15:58:10 <kaz> ... curious about how it works
15:58:22 <kaz> shigeya: can't provide resources in English, sorry...
15:58:28 <kaz> ... to be provided soon
15:58:30 <dom> ack mt
15:58:31 <shigeya> q?
15:58:38 <kaz> martin: tx for the explanation
15:58:44 <kaz> ... helpful to see documentation
15:59:04 <kaz> ... would ask what the goal is
15:59:20 <kaz> .. trying to create a governance system?
15:59:34 <kaz> ... sounds kind of ambitious
15:59:52 <kaz> tatsuya: would like to introduce the technology today
16:00:15 <mt> let the minutes reflect that I used the word "dystopian"
16:00:16 <kaz> ... Web contents to be verified by all the users
16:00:40 <dom> s/governance system/governance system to determine what truth is
16:00:49 <kaz> ... using 3rd-party certification, etc.
16:00:59 <dom> s/ambitious/ambitious and possibly dystopian
16:01:06 <kaz> ... it's just launched
16:01:13 <kaz> ... try to start certification providers
16:01:33 <rbyers> q+
16:01:52 <tzviya8> q+ to clarify trust model
16:01:52 <kaz> shigeya: we don't think we're creating dystopian world
16:02:06 <kaz> ... not going to become so
16:02:14 <kaz> ... we need to verify authenticity of the originator
16:02:19 <kaz> ... we dont have that yet
16:02:21 <wendyreid> q+ to ask about whether threat modelling has been conducted
16:02:23 <estark> q+
16:02:39 <kaz> ... we're not aiming entirely controlled world
16:02:44 <dom> q?
16:02:47 <dom> ack cpn
16:03:09 <kaz> chris: we should be winding back to the use cases
16:03:32 <kaz> ... would like to hear about use cases we have
16:04:16 <kaz> ... one of the things we do as the owner of our web site
16:04:26 <kaz> ... would like to do some indication
16:04:43 <kaz> ... the content genuinely comes from us
16:04:55 <kaz> ... trust relationship of BBC
16:05:09 <kaz> ... would like to see possible solution for that purpose
16:05:31 <kaz> ... the other view on news distributor
16:05:55 <kaz> ... difficulty of service verification
16:06:17 <kaz> ... any sort of technical indication
16:06:38 <kaz> ... what the content comes from is important
16:06:49 <kaz> ... having indication where the information comes from
16:07:22 <kaz> ... identify those kinds of problems
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16:07:40 <kaz> jun: OP doesn't care about whether the information itself is true or false
16:07:48 <shigeya> q?
16:07:49 <kaz> ... handles the originator of the information
16:08:10 <kaz> ... some kind of mechanism provided to the end user to verify that
16:08:48 <kaz> shigeya: how the fragments of the news to be handled
16:09:08 <kaz> ... some news from Yomiuri or Yahoo news to be distributed
16:09:20 <mt> q+
16:09:22 <kaz> ... aggregator mechanism can identify which comes from which
16:09:34 <kaz> tatsuya: we're focusing on simple problems
16:09:41 <kaz> ... regarding your concerns
16:09:50 <kaz> ... may related to ads
16:10:08 <kaz> ... e.g., many natural disasters there in Japan
16:10:08 <dom> q?
16:10:14 <kaz> ... we can see many fake news sites
16:10:34 <kaz> ... we need to clarify which information is really provided by Yomiuri
16:10:55 <kaz> ... we can split the definitions
16:11:09 <kaz> ... just started to verify the originator
16:11:23 <kaz> @@@: important problem
16:11:30 <naomi> ack rbyers
16:11:37 <naomi> s/@@@/rbyers/
16:12:07 <kaz> ... not sure f possible to handle each component within the Web content
16:12:18 <kaz> ... different level of trust mechanism included there
16:12:57 <kaz> ... authentication for the headline and the content
16:13:08 <kaz> michiko: (shoes an example)
16:13:19 <kaz> ... each part handled separately
16:13:37 <kaz> rbyers: actual story inside of the extension window?
16:13:52 <kaz> shigeya: the content is not shown in the extension window
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16:14:06 <kaz> ... don't have the live demo at the moment
16:14:24 <kaz> ... extension just shows which part comes from where
16:14:35 <kaz> rbyers: have done penetration tests?
16:14:42 <cpn> rrsagent, pointer
16:14:42 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-trust-origin-irc#T16-14-42
16:15:08 <kaz> shigeya: the extension is implemented as a browser extension using JS
16:15:14 <kaz> ... so could be attacked
16:15:39 <kaz> ... the verification of where the content comes from is done here
16:15:56 <kaz> ... it's not good enough from security viewpoint at the moment
16:16:05 <kaz> ... but the functionality is useful
16:16:28 <kaz> rbyers: very bad attacker can handle that
16:16:32 <naomi> q?
16:16:32 <dom> q?
16:16:41 <dom> ack tzviya8
16:16:41 <kaz> tzviya: very interesting presentation
16:16:46 <dom> ack tzviya
16:16:48 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to clarify trust model
16:16:51 <kaz> ... similar to Chris
16:17:03 <tzviya8> https://www.w3.org/2018/10/credibility-tech/
16:17:07 <kaz> ... credible web did something also
16:17:26 <kaz> ... related to reputational risks
16:17:48 <kaz> ... trying to create some mechanism attackers can't make spoof
16:18:05 <kaz> ... millions of fake books there
16:18:33 <kaz> ... cheaper content might be fake
16:18:43 <kaz> ... also would like to see examples
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16:18:54 <louay> present+ Louay_Bassbouss
16:18:55 <dom> ack wendyreid
16:18:55 <Zakim> wendyreid, you wanted to ask about whether threat modelling has been conducted
16:18:57 <dom> q?
16:19:14 <kaz> wendy: wanted to talk about threat modelling
16:19:32 <kaz> ... many of encryption/authentication for publishing also
16:19:40 <kaz> ... any resources on that?
16:19:59 <kaz> tatsuya: let me clarify the question
16:20:24 <kaz> wendy: challenges on different components introduced within one page, etc.
16:20:29 <kaz> ... resources are broaden
16:20:41 <kaz> ... wondering about threat model
16:20:45 <kaz> tatsuya: tx
16:20:49 <kaz> ... my opinion is...
16:20:58 <kaz> ... same answer to the previous questions
16:21:08 <kaz> ... spoofing is a big problem to us too
16:21:13 <shigeya> q?
16:21:17 <kaz> ... heard some news from Forbs
16:21:32 <kaz> ... huge web site providing huge contents
16:21:42 <kaz> ... some of them as fake
16:22:01 <kaz> ... difficult to recognize which content comes from Forbs actually
16:22:08 <kaz> ... very important to show that
16:23:04 <kaz> ... we have 2000 local govs in Japan
16:23:15 <kaz> ... fighting with fake information
16:23:21 <dom> q?
16:23:53 <kaz> ... we're now trying to work for that
16:24:17 <kaz> jun: local gov responsibility is largely about disaster handling
16:24:35 <kaz> ... distribute information for every disaster situation
16:24:40 <shigeya> q?
16:24:49 <kaz> emily: 2 questions
16:25:05 <naomi> ack estark
16:25:12 <kaz> ... key differences from extending validations, C2PA, etc.
16:25:27 <kaz> shigeya: C2PA based on X.509
16:25:37 <kaz> ... has their own trust framework
16:25:44 <dom> s/extending validation/extended validation certificates
16:26:09 <kaz> ... EB certificate is not enough
16:26:24 <rbyers> q+
16:26:34 <kaz> ... some of the certification for news outlet association can be used additionally
16:26:35 <dom> Zakim, close the queue
16:26:36 <Zakim> ok, dom, the speaker queue is closed
16:26:41 <kaz> ... seems to be useful
16:26:47 <shigeya> q?
16:27:08 <kaz> emily: how they interpret information?
16:27:21 <kaz> shigeya: source information is verified by OCCIP
16:27:27 <kaz> s/OC/OP/
16:27:42 <kaz> ... we can view the certification information
16:27:56 <kaz> ... but how to present the results is a question
16:28:05 <kaz> ... no good way on browser yet
16:28:16 <kaz> ... need some good mechanism
16:28:16 <dom> s/how they interpret information?/have you tested with users how they interpret information?/
16:28:27 <dom> q?
16:28:32 <dom> ack mt
16:28:34 <rbyers> q-
16:28:44 <kaz> martin: still unclear about the property and the system
16:29:10 <kaz> ... is this about some sort of secondly entity itself?
16:29:25 <kaz> ... content produced, e.g., by BBC?
16:29:29 <kaz> shigeya: both
16:29:59 <kaz> maritn: goal to be applied to social media, messaging service also?
16:30:11 <kaz> shigeya: not to be applied to them yet
16:30:19 <kaz> ... they have different characteristics
16:30:35 <kaz> q?
16:30:44 <shigeya> q?
16:31:06 <kaz> ... this is the first session about OP (at W3C)
16:31:19 <kaz> ... next step to show more details
16:31:34 <kaz> ... let us know about your opinions
16:31:47 <kaz> tatsuya: looking for opportunity to join the CG
16:31:55 <kaz> q?
16:31:57 <kaz> q+
16:32:14 <kaz> ... practical CG
16:32:44 <kaz> kaz: which CG?
16:32:51 <kaz> ... Credential CG?
16:33:00 <kaz> ... or some other possible CG(s)?
16:33:14 <kaz> shigeya: would like to start to work within the Credential Web CG
16:34:02 <Bert> s/maritn:/martin:
16:34:52 <kaz> s/Credential Web/Credible Web/g
16:35:05 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/groups/cg/credibility/ Credible Web CG
16:35:06 <kaz> [adjourned]
16:35:10 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:35:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-trust-origin-minutes.html kaz
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