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15:04:43 <tpac-breakout-bot> RRSAgent, do not leave
15:04:44 <tpac-breakout-bot> RRSAgent, make logs member
15:04:45 <tpac-breakout-bot> Meeting: W3C Sustainability meeting
15:04:45 <tpac-breakout-bot> Chair: Tantek Çelik
15:04:45 <tpac-breakout-bot> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2024-breakouts/issues/100
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15:04:46 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, clear agenda
15:04:46 <Zakim> agenda cleared
15:04:46 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe
15:04:47 <Zakim> agendum 1 added
15:04:47 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
15:04:47 <Zakim> agendum 2 added
15:04:47 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session
15:04:48 <Zakim> agendum 3 added
15:04:48 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Discussion
15:04:48 <Zakim> agendum 4 added
15:04:48 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
15:04:50 <Zakim> agendum 5 added
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20:18:38 <jgraham> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:18:41 <jgraham> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:18:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-sustainability-minutes.html jgraham
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20:18:54 <addison> present+
20:18:57 <tantek> present+
20:19:00 <Rachael> present+
20:19:03 <tantek> chair: tantek
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20:20:02 <tantek> scribenick: hdv
20:20:06 <tzviya8> present+
20:20:06 <hdv> scribenick: hdv
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20:20:26 <hdv> tantek: this is the sustainability breakout session
20:20:33 <dmarti> present+
20:20:33 <jeroen> Present+
20:20:35 <Daniel> present+
20:20:44 <tnitot> present+
20:20:46 <Ben_Tillyer_> present+
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20:21:04 <rigo> RRSAgent, pointer?
20:21:04 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-sustainability-irc#T20-21-04
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20:21:29 <hdv> tantek: how many of you had a chance to look at the projects and work areas of this group? show of hands?
20:21:36 <BrianE> Present+
20:21:42 <hdv> [very few hands]
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20:21:42 <tantek> event: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/849a2a8e-07bc-4bca-9a8b-24995e3a15e1/
20:22:00 <tantek> projects and work areas: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Sustainability#Work_Areas
20:22:21 <hdv> tantek: like I summarised in the description… it's been an eventful past year for sustainability at W3C
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20:22:34 <hdv> tantek: we have a Sustainability Interest Group charter that has gone to AC for vote
20:23:04 <hdv> tantek: tzviya8 was hired by W3C to work on member related things as well as sustainability
20:23:21 <hdv> tantek: the TAG put the ethical web principles forward to make it an official W3C statement
20:23:41 <hdv> tantek: it received no objections
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20:23:56 <hdv> tantek: while the processing happens we can take it with fairly strong confidence that W3C will publish a statement that contains a strong wording re sustainabiliy
20:24:04 <hdv> s/sustainabiliy/sustainability
20:24:20 <hdv> tantek: the statement is one thing, the other is to put it into practice
20:24:31 <hdv> tantek: the project that made most process is the sustainable web guidelines, that's the primary deliverable of the interest group
20:24:49 <tzviya8> SWIG Charter: https://www.w3.org/2024/09/sustyweb-charter-202409.html
20:24:54 <hdv> tantek: that leaves us with what's next for sustainability at W3C
20:25:16 <hdv> tantek: one of the harder and hopefully most valuable first… how do we establish a process of sustainability horizontal review
20:25:31 <tantek> q?
20:25:36 <hdv> tantek: in the same way we have it for accessibility and other things at the W3C
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20:25:45 <tzviya8> q+
20:25:46 <fbedora> present+
20:25:46 <Ben_Tillyer_> 5 people on zoom
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20:25:54 <tantek> ack tzviya8
20:25:58 <cwilso> present+
20:26:13 <hdv> tzviya8: tantek mentioned it's part of my job now. I am hoping to work on developing horizontal review
20:26:26 <tantek> q+ tnitot
20:26:30 <tantek> ack tzviya8
20:26:35 <tantek> ack tzviya
20:26:38 <hdv> tzviya8: another great news is that tnitot has joined the TAG
20:27:25 <hdv> tzviya8: I don't think anyone has the time to review every single specification… so is it something like is this specification ruining the planet? it is mostly about the impact that the spec has, not the spec itself
20:27:28 <tantek> ack tnitot
20:27:58 <hdv> tnitot: I am Tristan, have been involved with web standards for a while… spent 17 years at Mozilla, now for the past 5-6 years have been focusing mostly on sustainability
20:28:05 <hdv> tnitot: have recently been appointed TAG member
20:28:15 <hdv> tnitot: still trying to figure out how to help
20:28:29 <hdv> tnitot: I think sustainability horizontal review is very promising
20:28:36 <tantek> q?
20:28:37 <hdv> tnitot: if you have ideas on how I can help, come talk to me
20:28:44 <addison> q+
20:28:49 <tantek> ack addison
20:29:12 <hdv> addison: one thing to think about re horizontal reviews… there is reviewing spec, but one thing that worked well for us is to build a short checklist
20:29:17 <hdv> q+
20:29:32 <hdv> addison: this helps focus the work
20:29:32 <tantek> q+ to strong +1 a checklist and see who here would be interested in drafting one in the Sustainability CG?
20:29:34 <tzviya8> q+ to ask what sustainability means
20:29:40 <tantek> q- later
20:29:57 <hdv> tnitot: do you think along the lines of privacy and security is it along those lines?
20:29:57 <tantek> present+ hdv
20:30:00 <tantek> present+ tnitot
20:30:04 <tantek> present+ cwilso
20:30:06 <tantek> q?
20:30:13 <tzviya8> scribe+
20:30:17 <tantek> ack hdv
20:30:29 <tantek> present+ ralph
20:30:33 <tantek> present+ rigo
20:30:37 <tzviya8> hdv: We have a11y checklist called FAST, and it might be useful as well
20:30:44 <tantek> q?
20:30:50 <tantek> ack tzviya
20:30:50 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask what sustainability means
20:30:50 <hdv> https://w3c.github.io/apa/fast/
20:31:14 <hdv> tzviya8: maybe we can talk about… what does sustainability mean?
20:31:26 <hdv> tantek: I can link to the ethical web principles
20:31:52 <tantek> https://www.w3.org/TR/2024/NOTE-ethical-web-principles-20240813/#sustainable
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20:32:26 <hdv> tantek: it talks about environmental sustainability, there are a few examples, like carbon emissions and reducing electronic waste
20:32:40 <hdv> tantek: I would personally also add water consumption, or, in general, natural resource consumption
20:32:43 <tzviya8> https://w3c.github.io/sustyweb/intro.html#what-is-web-sustainability
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20:32:54 <hdv> tantek: if we don't have a good definition of what it means it makes it hard to make a checklist
20:33:00 <jenstrickland> present+
20:33:47 <tantek> q?
20:33:58 <tnitot> q?
20:34:01 <dmarti> q+
20:34:14 <hdv> tantek: as a sustainability enthusiast I know enough to be dangerous so glad to facilitate folks who know more as a chair
20:34:38 <hdv> tantek: we could look at what new technology might do as opposed to what technology could do
20:34:42 <Ben_Tillyer_> q+
20:34:46 <hdv> tantek: it's hard to anticipate how things could go wrong
20:34:55 <tnitot> q+
20:35:01 <hdv> tantek: do certain technology patterns lead to certain harms in certain situations?
20:35:12 <tantek> q?
20:35:15 <tantek> ack tantek
20:35:15 <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to strong +1 a checklist and see who here would be interested in drafting one in the Sustainability CG?
20:35:20 <hdv> tantek: how could a new technology impact sustainability? probably requires a lot of collaboration including with other folks
20:35:45 <hdv> tantek: to me a checklist is a great way to get horizontal review to start
20:36:16 <tantek> sees tzviya, tnitot, dmarti, timo, jgraham
20:36:20 <tantek> raises their hands
20:36:33 <hdv> tantek: who would like to help with this?
20:36:55 <hdv> tzviya8: and the to be fomed sustainability interest group would probably have great folks to help with this
20:37:09 <tantek> q?
20:37:10 <hdv> tantek: is anyone particularly interesting in drafting or editing?
20:37:17 <alastairc> The CG put together a big list, it appears that starting with that and finding the ones applicable to horizontal review? https://w3c.github.io/sustyweb/#web-development
20:37:32 <hdv> tzviya8: question for us to ask is if it would be based on web sustainability guidelines or not?
20:37:42 <hdv> tantek: I think they're related but not the same
20:37:46 <tantek> q+ q?
20:37:48 <tantek> q?
20:37:52 <tantek> q- q?
20:37:53 <tantek> q?
20:37:58 <tantek> ack dmarti
20:38:18 <Daniel> s|https://w3c.github.io/apa/fast/|https://w3c.github.io/apa/fast/
20:38:20 <hdv> dmarti: wanted to ask about lifespan of devices, does that include right to repair or would that get us too far from web sustainability?
20:38:27 <tantek> q?
20:38:49 <hdv> dmarti: and the right to repurpose, eg if your device is not updated you could at least get a web browsing station out of it
20:39:11 <tantek> ack Ben_Tillyer_
20:39:21 <hdv> tzviya8: can't remember if these are in but seem important to include
20:39:27 <tantek> present+ Ben_Tillyer_
20:40:05 <tantek> q?
20:40:08 <hdv> Ben_Tillyer_: looking from an accessibility perspective, if we were to include a new standard that improves the equity on the web for certain disability groups, but then it also increases power consumption considerably, how do we balance that when we do horizontal review?
20:40:11 <tantek> ack tnitot
20:40:20 <tzviya8> q+ to respond to balance of priorities
20:40:51 <hdv> tnitot: if we want to hink sustainability properly, we should start with lifecycle assessments, it's not just water or resources or manufacturing, it's all of them, it needs to be cmplete
20:40:55 <hdv> s/cmplete/complete
20:40:59 <addison> q+ to respond to the question about cross-horizontal
20:41:05 <tantek> s/to hink/to think
20:41:18 <tantek> q?
20:41:22 <hdv> tnitot: otherwise you could, say, decide to reduce carbon emission but then waste more water
20:41:23 <tantek> ack tzviya
20:41:23 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to respond to balance of priorities
20:42:05 <hdv> tzviya8: along those lines, it's going to be about lifecycles and finding the right balance… re Ben_Tillyer_'s question, if you're trying to find the balance between performance and future delivery, I can't answer that question, have to answer what customer wants or CEO wants
20:42:13 <hdv> tzviya8: maybe it could be you give your users choices
20:42:24 <tantek> q+ to also attempt an answer at Ben's question per existing set of horizontal reviews that could conflict
20:42:42 <hdv> tzviya8: can you give users a choice, eg ask users do you want the option that uses less carbon
20:43:27 <tantek> +1 to getting started
20:43:28 <tantek> q?
20:43:31 <tantek> ack addison
20:43:31 <Zakim> addison, you wanted to respond to the question about cross-horizontal
20:43:35 <hdv> tzviya8: these are hard to measure, just like with accessibility, the checklist isn't going to cover all cases and therefore this isn't something that will be ready quickly
20:43:46 <hdv> addison: there's got to be a tension. that we'll collectively navigate
20:44:04 <hdv> addison: some don't want us to finerprint, others want us to have more personalised information
20:44:16 <hdv> addison: we have to think meaningfully about the tradeoffs
20:44:24 <jenstrickland> q+
20:44:28 <hdv> addison: the more horizontal things we do, the more competing things we'll have too
20:44:32 <tantek> q?
20:44:36 <tantek> q- later
20:44:42 <hdv> addison: challenge for us collectively as W3C, going forward
20:44:43 <tantek> ack jenstrickland
20:44:55 <tantek> present+ jenstrickland
20:45:08 <hdv> jenstrickland: I think we need to remember, there should be informed consent, allow people the choice, as tzviya8 was saying
20:45:30 <hdv> jenstrickland: because privacy and i18n concerns for historically targeted communities are more life impairing to some
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20:45:39 <hdv> jenstrickland: remember people who are not in the room
20:45:52 <tantek> vq?
20:45:55 <hdv> jenstrickland: we are impacting if they can survive or take care of their family
20:45:57 <tantek> ack tantek
20:45:57 <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to also attempt an answer at Ben's question per existing set of horizontal reviews that could conflict
20:46:17 <hdv> tantek: we already have 4 areas for horizontal review
20:46:27 <hdv> tantek: I would offer the best thing we can do there is to be very direct and clear in each area of horizontal review
20:46:46 <hdv> tantek: don't pre-do that tradeoff
20:47:01 <hdv> tantek: I think the task of doing that tradeoff rests on the AC
20:47:38 <tantek> q?
20:47:40 <hdv> tantek: shouldn't put the burden of responsibility on just one of those groups, we need broader stakeholder involvement to address those kinds of tradeoffs
20:47:44 <Ben_Tillyer_> Thanks
20:47:52 <jenstrickland> Feel free to consult us in the Equity CG, too.
20:48:14 <hdv> tantek: the other point jenstrickland makes re inclusivity…  I think we should do most of this work in the CG
20:48:24 <hdv> tantek: that's currently W3C's most accessible forum for participation
20:49:01 <tantek> Proposed: develop a draft sustainability checklist in the Sustainability CG
20:49:13 <hdv> +100
20:49:16 <addison> +1
20:49:17 <ioana> +1
20:49:19 <tantek> +1
20:49:20 <tnitot> +100
20:49:21 <ericaconnell> +1
20:49:23 <Ben_Tillyer_> +
20:49:27 <Daniel> +1
20:49:28 <jeroen> +1
20:49:32 <Rachael> +1
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20:49:36 <tzviya8> +1 with explicit invitation to Sustainable Web CG team
20:49:40 <cwilso> +1
20:49:40 <jenstrickland> +1
20:49:56 <cwilso> +1 to Tzviya's addition, too
20:49:58 <jenstrickland> * note also to invite the Equity CG to provide input.
20:50:03 <jgraham> +1
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20:50:26 <emeyer> present+
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20:50:35 <tantek> RESOLVED: develop a draft sustainability checklist in the Sustainability CG
20:50:41 <tantek> q?
20:50:45 <fbedora> +1
20:51:10 <hdv> tantek: going beyond a checklist/self-questionaire… it's a good start, but not the end
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20:51:33 <hdv> q+
20:51:40 <addison> q+
20:51:50 <tantek> ack hdv
20:52:12 <tzviya8> hdv: Reviewing Specs is one thing, but will we review charters as well?
20:52:16 <Ben_Tillyer_> +1 to the idea of looking at charters
20:52:16 <tantek> deliverables
20:52:19 <tantek> +1
20:52:20 <tantek> ack addison
20:52:49 <hdv> addison: for us, primary thing is to review requests… there is a breakout later today where the horizontals are… throwing rocks at each other
20:52:54 <tantek> q?
20:53:02 <hdv> addison: I wish chairs knew better what to expect and so on
20:53:11 <hdv> addison: still chasing people to get stuff done
20:53:18 <tzviya8> q+ to add to addison
20:53:25 <hdv> addison: early review and early engagement is still a challenge
20:53:57 <hdv> addison: WHATWG and CSS are kind of the big ones, I have hundreds of issues open with them
20:53:58 <tantek> q?
20:54:11 <hdv> addison: I don't know if sustainability has that level
20:54:43 <hdv> addison: we're not here to make you eat your vegetables, we're here to help you improve your specs
20:54:49 <tantek> ack tzviya
20:54:49 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to add to addison
20:55:05 <jenstrickland> Sustainable Web has done a wonderful job of creating that helpful culture.
20:55:34 <hdv> tzviya8: horizontal review is one of the greatest things at W3C… and there's also many problems with it, we rely on a small number of people to review everything
20:55:54 <hdv> tzviya8: if I need to review 100s of specs per year it is probably not going to happen, so we have to help people do it themselves too
20:56:15 <hdv> addison: education is probably more important than checking it later
20:56:17 <tantek> q+ to ask about parallelizing - in particular is there interest in doing some "practice" sustainability review at the TAG? (tnitot)
20:56:25 <tantek> ack tzviya
20:56:35 <hdv> tantek: what tzviya8 brings up re scale and bottlenecks is really important
20:56:57 <hdv> tantek: getting through a massive queue is where things get stuck and/or burn people out, and that's not sustainable
20:57:10 <hdv> tantek: I don't want to let perfect be the enemy of good enough
20:57:46 <hdv> tantek: want to call for ideas re parallelising
20:58:07 <hdv> tantek: if we develop a self review checklist, would help to have example technologies so that we can try to do some assessments
20:58:24 <Rachael> +1 to iterative approach that rotates between checklist development and experiiments in assessing
20:58:37 <kirkwood> present+
20:59:22 <Rachael> q+
20:59:23 <tantek> +1 jgraham: systematic harms vs individual harms
20:59:26 <tantek> ack tantek
20:59:26 <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to ask about parallelizing - in particular is there interest in doing some "practice" sustainability review at the TAG? (tnitot)
20:59:40 <kirkwood> W3C Environmental Impact Statement.
20:59:43 <hdv> jgraham: it's not clear to me how this actually works in practice, without having done the exercise it is hard to tell, maybe different from a11y, because often with sustainability, the harms are non-local, imagine a user who has this set of circumstances, and if they use this technology it causes harm to them, with sustainability it's more global. So looking at it in practice will help
20:59:45 <tantek> ack Rach
21:00:33 <kirkwood> q+
21:00:35 <hdv> Rachael: I agree there are some differences between accessidbility and sustainability, but both have things that need to be addressed… the more you rotate between different data areas, the better it wroks
21:00:38 <tantek> ack kirkwood
21:01:04 <hdv> kirkwood: for a little background, I'm an environmental engineer who went into web
21:01:45 <tantek> q+ to explicitly note contrast between horizontal review harms individual vs systemic or immediate vs only at scale
21:01:55 <hdv> kirkwood: re environmental impact assessment… I have some past experience with this… I am very interested in the ability to create some impact here… looking at power consumption could work, but tradeoff of information exchange around environmental issues could offset that
21:02:33 <tantek> q?
21:02:37 <hdv> tantek: not sure how much you looked at Web Sustainability Guidelines?
21:02:50 <hdv> kirkwood: yeah people can have a half empty / half full kind of perspective
21:03:17 <tantek> q?
21:03:20 <tantek> vq?
21:03:47 <hdv> tantek: James noted the difference between individual harms and systemic harms as an interesting contrast
21:03:59 <rigo> q+ to ask about data collection
21:04:08 <hdv> tantek: there are these kinds of contrasts in a11y and i18n, most of the harms there are noticeable by the individual
21:04:32 <hdv> tantek: some of them may also be eventual impacts too, if enough websites used a bad technoloy could cause pain over time too
21:04:53 <hdv> tantek: but with sustainability that indirect impact is much bigger… probably same for security and privacy
21:05:20 <Ben_Tillyer_> q+
21:05:40 <tantek> ack tantek
21:05:40 <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to explicitly note contrast between horizontal review harms individual vs systemic or immediate vs only at scale
21:05:41 <hdv> tantek: things that use a lot of power, eg used to be bitcoin, now training LLMs
21:05:43 <tantek> ack rigo
21:05:43 <Zakim> rigo, you wanted to ask about data collection
21:06:10 <hdv> rigo: open question… I worked on the digital product passport, the goal there, within the Green Deal, was to create databases to allow people to make decisions based on being informed
21:06:42 <hdv> rigo: to be able to make those assesments, the checklist as such is nice but how do you gather data. If the group is starting horizontal reviews, question is how do we gather and organise data, so that it corresponds to our checklist
21:06:42 <Ben_Tillyer_> q-
21:06:52 <tantek> ack Ben_Tillyer_
21:07:27 <hdv> tantek: this has been a really rich discussion so far, it feels like there is momentum for this issue
21:07:46 <hdv> tantek: are there other project areas, from the sustainability cg efforts that people would like to explore or talk about? can name a few of them if that helps
21:08:00 <tantek> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Sustainability#Work_Areas
21:08:38 <jenstrickland> I'm interested in Principles.
21:08:39 <tantek> q?
21:08:39 <hdv> tantek: if we take the TAG's ethical web principle re sustainability, how can we expand on that, should we expend on that?
21:08:45 <jenstrickland> q+
21:08:46 <tzviya8> q+
21:08:50 <tantek> ack jenstrickland
21:09:28 <hdv> jenstrickland: we use something from a policy template where we incorporated a statement of principles, would love to be part of documenting principles
21:09:30 <tantek> ack tzviya
21:09:52 <hdv> tzviya8: I am concerned we have two community groups, there is overlapping interests
21:10:12 <hdv> tzviya8: not sure what happens since last TPAC in this group, would like to see this to have more activity
21:10:20 <hdv> tzviya8: maybe merging the groups could help
21:10:31 <hdv> tzviya8: as there is real interest in getting this off the ground
21:10:39 <tantek> q?
21:11:11 <hdv> tantek: my quick assessment of that… it's the cooks in the kitchen problem, with so much work to do, eg horizonal review, web sustainability guidelines, there is some amount of division of labour that this could benefit from
21:11:48 <hdv> tantek: and now we have the IG that is being launched, then we have two CGs and an IGs, could then look at divison of labour better, things scale better if we allow smaller groups of people to work on things, as long as there is very good cross communication
21:12:12 <kirkwood> present+
21:12:45 <hdv> tantek: one of the chairs of the sustainability cg had to step down, that just left me… I've had a bunch of other project, could benefit from a co-chair if there's someone here who has the ability to drive things, would be happy to share that responsibility
21:12:58 <jenstrickland> q+
21:13:38 <hdv> tantek: if you're interested in co-chairing the CG let us know, CGs work well when there's multiple cochairs
21:13:41 <jenstrickland> q+
21:13:42 <jenstrickland> q+
21:13:43 <Chuck> q?
21:13:54 <tantek> ack jenstrickland
21:14:59 <hdv> jenstrickland: wanted to offer a suggestion… the sustainable web group… they're one of the most finely machines I've ever seen at the W3C… those folks deserve not just blue 3D-printed trophies
21:15:11 <hdv> jenstrickland: they are getting a lot done
21:15:40 <hdv> jenstrickland: if we collaborate and then sub groups can take on specific projects
21:15:51 <hdv> tantek: appreciate the suggestion
21:16:15 <hdv> tantek: agreed that group is very productive, but came to different conclusion… I don't want to upset their focus and productivity
21:17:23 <hdv> tantek: this work requires a very active editor
21:17:38 <hdv> tantek: if we can find someone who has the time that is the key next step
21:17:57 <tantek> q?
21:18:21 <emeyer> emeyer has left #sustainability
21:18:27 <hdv> tantek: you can join this channel or the Slack channel for sustainability
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21:18:45 <hdv> tantek: thanks everyone! And once again if someone wants to cochair sustainability cg and/or edit the self questionnaire, that'd be great!
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21:19:06 <taylore> what is the slack channel link?
21:19:22 <tantek> taylore see https://www.w3.org/wiki/Slack to start
21:19:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-sustainability-minutes.html tantek
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22:01:18 <Daniel> s|https://w3c.github.io/apa/fast/|https://w3c.github.io/fast/|
22:01:37 <Daniel> rrsagent, make minutes
22:01:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-sustainability-minutes.html Daniel
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