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14:51:10 <tpac-breakout-bot> Meeting: Curating the web platform's data and documentation
14:51:10 <tpac-breakout-bot> Chair: Florian Scholz, wbamberg, Estelle Weyl, Vinyl Da.i'gyu-Kazotetsu
14:51:10 <tpac-breakout-bot> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2024-breakouts/issues/34
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14:51:11 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, clear agenda
14:51:11 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:51:11 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe
14:51:12 <Zakim> agendum 1 added
14:51:12 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
14:51:12 <Zakim> agendum 2 added
14:51:12 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session
14:51:13 <Zakim> agendum 3 added
14:51:13 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Discussion
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14:51:13 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
14:51:14 <Zakim> agendum 5 added
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18:17:05 <tidoust> present+
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18:17:25 <tidoust> fscholz: I'll go through some slides first.
18:17:29 <estelle> scribe+
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18:17:41 <Niklas> present+
18:17:44 <tidoust> ... We're Open Web Docs, non-profit with sponsors, thank to them!
18:17:54 <tidoust> ... We work on repositories that you may or may not be familiar with.
18:18:21 <tidoust> ... browser-specs, webref, mdn-bcd-collector, browser-compat-data, web-features and content
18:18:36 <tidoust> ... These repositories make up a lot of data available in documentation.
18:18:48 <tidoust> fscholz: It all starts with browser-specs.
18:18:59 <anssik> Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
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18:19:09 <tidoust> ... The list of specs is not only from W3C, also IETF, WHATWG, CGS, TC39 and so on.
18:19:26 <tidoust> ... Currently, it has 662 specs.
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18:19:44 <tidoust> ... We are reading these specs to document them in a centralized place!
18:20:14 <tidoust> ... browser-specs has this notion of standing. "good", "pending" or "discontinued". You could say that there are 619 "good" specs.
18:20:40 <tidoust> ... From these 619 specs, we have a lot of web platform features, incl. IDL interfaces, CSS properties, HTML elements, et.
18:20:53 <tidoust> ... Our entry on getting data from these specifications is the webref project.
18:21:23 <tidoust> ... It does contain a lot of data, but it does not extract a few others, such as HTTP headers or WebDriver endpoints.
18:21:37 <tidoust> ... webref is the way we can figure out what is available on the web platform.
18:22:11 <tidoust> ... In particular, we have the mdn-bcd-collector project, that checks what's actually implemented in browsers.
18:23:02 <tidoust> ... We get a list of "features" from webref (IDL interfaces, methods/properties/events, CSS properties) and run through them in browsers: about 17880 features.
18:23:28 <tidoust> fscholz: The collector looks at what is actually implemented and feeds that into the BCD project.
18:23:42 <tidoust> ... It only records features that are implemented in at least one browser.
18:24:00 <queengooborg> * it = BCD
18:24:06 <tidoust> ... We land at 15620 features that have seen at least one implementation.
18:24:37 <tidoust> ... BCD is a more than what the collector collects.
18:25:25 <tidoust> ... Now, what the previous breakout session discussed is web-features, which maps these thousands of features to catalog features and calculate baseline status.
18:26:22 <tidoust> ... Throwing a bunch of numbers at you, we end up with 7440 baseline features (widely available).
18:26:34 <tidoust> ... These features are what users can actually use.
18:26:54 <tidoust> fscholz: Someone in our community made a Venn diagram out of it.
18:27:10 <tidoust> ... But then, availability does not tell us anything about feature adoption.
18:27:45 <tidoust> ... There is no consistent use counters in browsers, which I find surprising. I would love if there were some data about how much features are used.
18:27:54 <tidoust> ... There are some work in the State of XX surveys.
18:28:33 <tidoust> ... We're monitoring the specs, collecting the data, and documenting the feature in MDN. I wonder what more we can do so that more features end up in a sweet spot.
18:29:34 <tidoust> fscholz: Any feedback on the process? Things to improve in any of these projects? How to get more features through this process successfully?
18:30:25 <tidoust> ... Also, answering "what is the web platform" in terms of features is hard. The numbers I have on the slides are from this week. They will be different next week.
18:30:55 <tidoust> ... Things will evolve, it would be nice if the velocity of features that make it to browsers would go up.
18:31:19 <tidoust> ... So many specified features in the specifications, but only half of them make it through.
18:31:28 <tidoust> q+
18:31:47 <kadirtopal> q+
18:32:01 <tidoust> past: Is the number of baseline features complete or an estimation?
18:32:25 <tidoust> fscholz: There's a package that computes the baseline status automatically for BCD keys, but the features here are not web-features.
18:32:53 <tidoust> kadirtopal: These are BCD keys, not features. The ratio is roughly one to 10. One web-feature for 10 BCD keys.
18:33:00 <jgraham> q+
18:33:22 <tidoust> ack tidoust
18:33:57 <kadirtopal> tidoust: saying that many features are not baseline need to consider that a lot of those features are in incubation.
18:33:58 <estelle> tidoust> the number of baseline features is missing the incubation stage features, so it's normal that they are not yet baseline.
18:34:13 <jgraham> ack kadirtopal
18:34:38 <estelle> tidoust> oops
18:35:11 <tidoust> kadirtopal: Re. tracking usage of features, there's still work going on to connect usage counters to web-features. We're doing it the other way round, from usage counters to web-features.
18:35:30 <tidoust> ack jgraham
18:36:09 <tidoust> jgraham: I don't think the goal is just shipping new features irrespective of what these features are.
18:36:27 <tidoust> ... There are likely different opinions in the room, different standard positions about features.
18:36:35 <ydaniv> present+
18:37:00 <kadirtopal> q+
18:37:33 <tidoust> fscholz: Yes, my point is that a lot of work goes into specifying and maintaing features and data, so you'd like things to be successful. Not necessarily about doing more things.
18:37:33 <tidoust> q+
18:38:28 <estelle> q+
18:38:32 <tidoust> jgraham: For example, we found that use counters are less useful than you might think. Some features are not intrinsically used because they only apply in specific contexts, e.g., WebRTC.
18:38:50 <tidoust> ... You need a lot of context to understand the figures.
18:38:53 <tidoust> ack kadirtopal
18:39:30 <tidoust> kadirtopal: Those things that are one browser only, how do they distribute over years? Is it getting better? Or worse? It would be interesting to compute that information.
18:40:26 <tidoust> ack tidoust
18:41:42 <past> q+
18:42:35 <tidoust> -> https://github.com/w3c/browser-specs/issues/1481#issuecomment-2328549515 Review and clarify spec selection criteria in browser-specs
18:43:02 <queengooborg> ack estelle
18:43:04 <tidoust> tidoust: [adding specs in browser-specs sometimes feels like rolling dice]
18:43:46 <tidoust> estelle: [scribe missed]
18:43:55 <queengooborg> ack past
18:44:36 <tidoust> past: The purpose of MDN should be to document every possible way for developers to build their web site on the web today. It could be that they are targeting a specific context, in one particular browser on one particular form factor.
18:45:16 <estelle> Rick Viscomi from Google leads the annual web almanac, we could feed him the list of the 7K+ features or otherwise access his automation tests to test what features are being used and how popular/common they are
18:45:42 <tidoust> fscholz: To be clear, the point in time when we document features in MDN is when they ship in at least one browser. That hasn't changed over the years.
18:46:01 <kadirtopal> q+
18:46:04 <estelle> https://almanac.httparchive.org/en/2022/
18:46:13 <kadirtopal> q-
18:46:40 <tidoust> past: The numbers are not clear between the second and third numbers, 17880 and 15620.
18:47:01 <tidoust> fscholz: That's where we filter out features that are not yet in one browser
18:47:42 <tidoust> queengooborg: A mixed bag of features, we may also remove deprecated features. Features that have landed in a spec but are never implemented.
18:47:54 <emeyer> scribe+
18:48:01 <emeyer> tidoust: We try to have specs in good standing
18:48:20 <emeyer> …For consistency reason, we have to force a spec standing to be "good" because it gets referenced by other specs
18:48:34 <emeyer> …Part of the guarantee with the data is that it’s consistent and makes sense as a whole
18:48:41 <emeyer> …So sometimes we have to force spec status
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18:49:00 <tidoust> tidoust: We may end up forcing a spec in good standing in browser-specs because its IDL starts to be referenced by another spec, for consistency.
18:49:19 <past> q+
18:49:22 <kadirtopal> q+
18:49:24 <tidoust> q+
18:49:29 <tidoust> ack past
18:49:36 <tidoust> qq+ past
18:49:58 <tidoust> fscholz: Every new feature needs to be documented, please keep that in mind :)
18:50:38 <tidoust> past: The number of tutorials in MDN could be an interesting metric to track as well.
18:50:40 <tidoust> ack past
18:50:40 <Zakim> past, you wanted to react to past
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18:51:15 <tidoust> fscholz: Web-features could actually help with that. Less fine-grained, so we should end up with 10 times fewer entry points.
18:51:20 <tidoust> ack kadirtopal
18:51:47 <tidoust> kadirtopal: It should be easy to identify which features have tutorials and how-tos in the end.
18:52:18 <tidoust> ... Re. compat data in browsers that are not main them. How are we currently maintaining them?
18:52:45 <queengooborg> qq+
18:52:59 <tidoust> fscholz: Done through the concept of mirroring. Opera is Chrome from a few versions back. The Opera data is not that well maintained.
18:53:52 <tidoust> ... For other browsers, it's more complex than this.
18:54:24 <tidoust> kadirtopal: Do you have a backlog of what you still need to process?
18:54:38 <tidoust> estelle: Last time I checked it was about 200.
18:54:55 <tidoust> fscholz: Some large APIs that remain, e.g., WebNN.
18:55:13 <tidoust> ack queengooborg
18:55:13 <Zakim> queengooborg, you wanted to react to kadirtopal
18:55:16 <emeyer> s/about 200/about 1200/
18:55:23 <fscholz> https://openwebdocs.github.io/web-docs-backlog/
18:55:56 <tidoust> queengooborg: I still run the collector on Opera. If it's supported, we go through mirroring, if it's not, we flag it.
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18:56:10 <queengooborg> ack tidoust
18:56:42 <estelle> https://openwebdocs.github.io/web-docs-backlog/
18:57:19 <emeyer> tidoust: I wonder if there’s something we could do for HTTP headers and WebDrivers
18:57:49 <emeyer> fscholz: Our way in is webref; the more we can make things machine-readable through webref, the better
18:57:57 <queengooborg> Open issue about collecting WebDriver data through the collector: https://github.com/openwebdocs/mdn-bcd-collector/issues/1762
18:58:14 <emeyer> …As you say, where would we put too much effort on the spec authors
18:58:20 <emeyer> …More HTTP headers would be nice
18:58:36 <emeyer> …I think it would be helpful for us so we can document more of them
18:58:43 <estelle> 493 widely available features are not yet documented (https://openwebdocs.github.io/web-docs-backlog/baseline/). 416 are SVG related. 27 are DOMMatrix related
18:59:09 <emeyer> …Webref has helped us to figure out what’s in every new browser release to see what’s new
18:59:11 <emeyer> …We used to rely on browser engineers to tell us
18:59:20 <estelle> 493 widely available features are not yet documented (https://openwebdocs.github.io/web-docs-backlog/baseline/).
18:59:29 <emeyer> …The machine-readableness of this is necessary; otherwise our efforts fail
18:59:29 <past> example of WebDriver info in a spec: https://webbluetoothcg.github.io/web-bluetooth/#automated-testing
19:00:01 <emeyer> tidoust: I can try looking into the HTTP headers thing
19:00:09 <queengooborg> tidoust: I can look into HTTP headers for webref
19:00:17 <emeyer> fscholz: I also have Henrik from Mozilla looking into the WebDriver stuff
19:00:38 <emeyer> fscholz: Okay, I think that’s it; come find me for OWD stickers
19:00:55 <tidoust> RRSAgent, draft minutes
19:00:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-openwebdocs-minutes.html tidoust
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