IRC log of mdn-security on 2024-09-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-mdn-security-irc
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RRSAgent, do not leave
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RRSAgent, make logs public
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Meeting: What security guidance should we give web developers?
15:03:52 [tpac-breakout-bot]
Chair: wbamberg, Daniel Appelquist
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Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2024-breakouts/issues/96
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Zakim, clear agenda
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agenda cleared
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Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe
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agendum 1 added
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Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
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agendum 2 added
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Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session
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agendum 3 added
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Zakim, agenda+ Discussion
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agendum 4 added
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Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
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agendum 5 added
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https://wbamberg.github.io/web-security-w3c-breakouts-september-2024/Templates/Overview.html
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20:16:29 [wbamberg]
https://wbamberg.github.io/web-security-w3c-breakouts-september-2024/Templates/Overview.html
20:16:39 [dom]
Slideset: https://wbamberg.github.io/web-security-w3c-breakouts-september-2024/Templates/Overview.html
20:17:30 [estelle]
Secure Web Application Guidelines
20:17:48 [dom]
wbamberg: this relates to a recently launched SWAG CG (Secure Web App Guidelines)
20:18:06 [jbroman]
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... giving an update on some of the recent discussions happening there
20:18:26 [dom]
... I'm a Technical doc writer and hope to make documentation useful to developers
20:18:58 [dom]
... will open up a discussion on what other security topics may be worth our collective attention
20:19:18 [dom]
... I work for Open Web Docs, an open collective of technical writer that document the Web mostly on MDN and maintain open web data
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[slide 2]
20:19:22 [DKA]
Open Web Docs: https://openwebdocs.org
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Present+ wbamberg, DKA, fscholz, estelle, Dom
20:20:47 [dom]
[slide 3]
20:22:08 [dom]
[slide 4]
20:23:06 [aaronshim]
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https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Security/Practical_implementation_guides
20:23:22 [dom]
[slide 5]
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RRSAgent, draft minutes
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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-mdn-security-minutes.html dom
20:24:56 [dom]
[slide 6]
20:26:21 [dom]
[slide 7]
20:28:00 [dom]
[slide 8]
20:29:16 [dom]
DKA: it also emerged from the dev research we did in preparation for the workshop last year was that developers don't have information about the security features available to them
20:29:32 [dom]
... what security related features should we be aware of that have low level of awareness/adoption?
20:29:38 [fscholz]
Results of said survey https://github.com/web-platform-dx/developer-research/blob/main/mdn-short-surveys/2023-05-15-security-dx/interpretation.md
20:29:59 [mkwst]
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20:30:37 [wbamberg]
security features: https://github.com/w3c-cg/swag/issues/2
20:32:20 [dom]
dom: any thought about how to address the different subaudiences of security needs? different type of developers will have different level of resources/control and risks of attacks
20:33:15 [estelle]
Suggested article/guide: "Do you need a CSP?"
20:33:35 [dom]
wbamberg: the 101 addresses some of them
20:34:23 [dom]
@@@: CSP is very hard for the average developers to use CSP documentation to make a determination; ideally, they would get out of the box by default in frameworks/libraries
20:34:51 [dom]
Estelle: as a developer, I want to know if I need a CSP before I adopt it in framework
20:34:59 [dom]
s/@@@/David_Google:/
20:35:21 [dom]
Oliver_Google: I work in the Web Extensions CG where we have a number of similar considerations
20:35:41 [dom]
... extensions have specific security features; some extensions can weaken the security of the default Web experience
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20:36:01 [dom]
... e.g. some web extensions remove the X-Frame prevention for their own use
20:36:26 [dom]
... extensions come with a default CSP that can be weakened but only to some extent
20:36:31 [dom]
Estelle: any pointer?
20:37:00 [dom]
Rob: there is already some documentation on CSP on MDN; it has good & bad examples, may be lacking guidance
20:37:12 [DKA]
q?
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20:38:36 [r]
Examples of documentation in extensions: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Add-ons/WebExtensions/manifest.json/content_security_policy
20:38:39 [dom]
AaronShim_Google: re developers understanding the feature before opting-in - a number of features get provided by default by frameworks without requiring developers opting in; with frameworks abstracting away the complexity for their end users
20:39:20 [jbroman]
dom: targeting framework developers is very different from targeting other developers
20:39:52 [jbroman]
... do we need to address the broader range of developers? we need a community understanding of the audience
20:39:57 [dom]
estelle: but framework developers would still need documentation
20:40:25 [dom]
Aaron: +1 we need both documentation for all , and easy to use tools
20:41:11 [dom]
wbamberg: for instance, openwebdocs.org could use netlify one-click CSP nonce - but I don't know what's gonna break - I as a developer need at least to understand the impact
20:41:22 [dom]
... and in this case, this is is not a default, I need at least to know if it matters
20:41:54 [dom]
David: the not-on-by-default is part of the challenge - it increases the need for documentation if developers need to get to that level of understanding
20:42:22 [dom]
Jeremy: the nonce example is interesting: the nonce-based CSP is very pervasive with impact throughout the deployment
20:42:40 [dom]
... it would be useful for developers to know how to find the releavant framework information on this particular point
20:43:25 [dom]
@@@: do we know how often developers are learning of the difference pieces? through tooling? documentation? there may be an opportunity to improve the path to documentation, e.g. via the developer console()
20:43:33 [jbroman]
s/@@@/rdcronin (Google)/
20:43:38 [dom]
... has there been any reasearch
20:43:41 [r]
Another example of CSP guidance in extensions: https://developer.chrome.com/docs/extensions/reference/manifest/content-security-policy
20:44:11 [estelle]
q+ (comment)
20:44:22 [dom]
Aaron: adding a data point: I don't how users find that documentation; but there are papers highlighting how hard it is to deploy CSP and trusted types
20:44:51 [dom]
@@@: lots of developers lookign for classes and certifications - they would also be a good target audience
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20:45:36 [dom]
estelle: looking at OWASP cheatsheet - if a feature has a particular intersection with e.g. CSP, it would be good to have a dedicated section in the relevant page
20:46:11 [dom]
wbamberg: that's part of the 2nd goal highlighted on slide 8
20:47:29 [dom]
rdcronin: meeting the developers where they happen to be feels important
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20:48:47 [dom]
Rob: BCD has information; would it be relevant to flag some of the features as having security considerations? e.g. to help with surfacing in editors/IDEs
20:49:26 [dom]
fscholz: research has shown two types of developers: action-oriented developers (try and iterate) vs concept-based developers (taking a more holistic/theoretical apprach)
20:50:10 [wbamberg]
q+
20:50:21 [jbroman]
dom: I wonder if there would be value in mapping in more detail the developer journey in a security context
20:50:33 [jbroman]
... one idea is that documentation is part of a broader set of support that developers need
20:51:12 [jbroman]
... in particular, if we are clear about what developers need at what time in their journey -- here we are talking about current development patterns -- part of what makes CSP challenging is what it will break
20:51:19 [jbroman]
... if you can test it, it changes the discussion significantly
20:51:24 [jbroman]
... testing itself requires a lot of documentation
20:51:49 [jbroman]
... looking through the whole journey, not just with a narrow focus on reading documentation might be useful
20:51:57 [jbroman]
... also to calibrate the type of documentation you might be encountering
20:52:46 [dom]
David: lighthouse include security guidance as part of performance audits
20:53:15 [dom]
wbamberg: re including annotations in BCD - I think BCD should only concern compat
20:53:30 [dom]
... but having a way to structure information about this sounds like a good idea
20:53:50 [dom]
Rob: having structured information would help with surfacing it
20:53:57 [DKA]
q+
20:54:08 [DKA]
ack wb
20:54:23 [dom]
fscholz: some APIs require specific security setting, e.g. sharedarraybuffer require cross origin isolation
20:54:49 [dom]
ack comment
20:54:52 [dom]
ack DKA
20:54:55 [dom]
q- (comment)
20:55:26 [dom]
DKA: the end result we're driving for is a more secure web - people less subject to security problems when they use the web; fewer people have their info stolen, or get malware
20:56:17 [dom]
... how do we prioritize the work that we're doing to address the security issues are actually facing the Web?
20:56:38 [jbroman]
q+ on deprioritizing older things?
20:56:46 [dom]
fscholz: we don't have e.g. on MDN a mapping of threats to end users with the underlying mitigation
20:56:56 [past]
q+
20:57:11 [dom]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:57:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-mdn-security-minutes.html dom
20:57:29 [dom]
jbroman: there is a long list of things MDN suggest doing
20:57:42 [dom]
... I wonder if it's worth deemphasizing things that are less necessary
20:58:36 [jbroman]
dom: this reminds me of Baseline
20:58:52 [jbroman]
... it is a definition from WebDX CG of features that have been interoperable across major browsers for enough time to be considered widely available
20:58:57 [jbroman]
... hint that developers should feel safe to use it
20:59:07 [jbroman]
... this is a specific projection to this topic
20:59:39 [jbroman]
... conversely, if something has market share outside of the baseline in terms of relevance, maybe indeed it shouldn't be highlighted, or should be made less "required", or in a "security considerations for old browsers"
20:59:52 [jbroman]
... one of the big challenge from my narrow experience in security is knowing where to start and where to finish
21:00:01 [jbroman]
... getting a clear sense of what is biggest bang for the buck
21:00:17 [jbroman]
... if you're mainly targeting recent browsers, extra material might be detrimental to the impact we want to have
21:00:34 [jbroman]
q?
21:00:35 [dom]
s/less necessary/less necessary, e.G. since most browsers now have a good default referrer policy, the value of specifying it is no longer critical
21:00:38 [jbroman]
q- jbroman
21:00:40 [jbroman]
ack past
21:01:27 [dom]
past: re third-party library, is it about highlighting "good" libraries or should it focus on the threats from supply chain attacks?
21:01:52 [dom]
DKA: supply chain would be part of evaluating libraries/frameworks from a security perspective
21:02:28 [dom]
... there is a gap between the common pracitce in open source in focusing in supply chain security and the Web community has a much more fuzzy approach to this
21:03:13 [dom]
wbamberg: if you expect developers to use frameworks and give them good indication (e.g. use X or Y to do authentication)
21:03:31 [dom]
... vs "to do X, think about security before making a selection"
21:04:29 [dom]
DKA: this isn't only about big monolithic frameworks, but also libraries to achieve specific functions
21:04:39 [jbroman]
dom: to relate this to the developer journey
21:04:53 [jbroman]
... the security work that you need to do when choosing dependencies
21:05:36 [jbroman]
... making sure that you give guidance -- down the line it probably impacts using SRI, CDN, etc -- but before that, telling them: how do you assess whether you library is going to be compatible with your CSP? is it doing something that is consistent with your security policies in the broad sense
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21:05:46 [jbroman]
... guiding developers on that reflection would be really important
21:06:07 [jbroman]
... mapping it out through the lifecycle of a project -- it's not just a one-time thing you do, but needs to be considered each time you add a dependency, etc
21:06:19 [dom]
q?
21:06:47 [dom]
fscholz: in the A11Y, there is WCAG
21:06:55 [dom]
... the security world doesn't have the equivalent
21:07:05 [dom]
... are we trying to come up with the security equivalent of WCAG?
21:07:35 [dom]
... WCAG is also used in the regulatory context
21:08:02 [dom]
... I wonder if the need for guidelines e.g. in the context of the EU CRA will arise as well
21:08:19 [dom]
DKA: in OpenSSF, we're arguing for the use of SBOMs
21:08:28 [dom]
... which the EU CRA is providing guidance on
21:08:48 [dom]
s/SBOMs/Software Bill of Materials (SBOMs)
21:09:14 [dom]
... which can impact procurement down the line
21:09:21 [wbamberg]
q+
21:09:51 [dom]
... I don't think we should aim at being regulatory guidelines, but at being able to guide developers
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21:10:39 [dom]
Emilie_MS: I'm interested in ensuring not just creation of documentation, but maintenance, since these are fast moving spaces and guidance needs to evolve
21:11:26 [jbroman]
dom: a structural issue is that some of you have high level security expertise and understanding of changing priorities
21:11:37 [jbroman]
... but to what extent does that understanding easily reach us when we need to write the documentation
21:11:52 [jbroman]
... to know, e.g., that Referrer-Policy might not need to be as prominent
21:11:57 [jbroman]
... awareness of such changes is not obvious
21:12:20 [dom]
fscholz: main motivation for the SWAG WG to connect these expertises
21:13:01 [dom]
MikeW: guidance changes over time as new capabilities are brought to bear or as we brought new features to the platform
21:13:20 [dom]
... the threats and the category of attacks against which we want to defend are stable
21:13:31 [dom]
... teaching about these threats is a useful way to guide developers against these threats
21:13:55 [dom]
... developers only need to care about CSP because of the risk posed by injection attacks
21:14:01 [jbroman]
q+ re kinds of threats, corp
21:14:05 [DKA]
+1
21:14:20 [dom]
... educating developers about these threats before or more than the mitigations
21:14:49 [dom]
... understanding the core concept for security perspective is a good anchoring to guide for specific countering these threats
21:15:26 [dom]
... WebAppSec put out a note with a threat model laying out scenarios - only useful if people understand this is a problem they have
21:16:32 [dom]
DKA: one of the challenges is developing the right level of guidance on these threats; if it gets too complicated it becomes impossible for developers to ingest
21:16:45 [dom]
q?
21:17:33 [dom]
dom: in terms of next steps, SWAG CG is the place to be
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21:18:46 [dom]
jbroman: for instance, MDN lists CORP as required - but without more clarity on the underlying threat and how it applies to my resources
21:18:56 [mkwst5]
Some links: https://resourcepolicy.fyi/, https://www.w3.org/TR/post-spectre-webdev/
21:19:23 [dom]
DKA/ I don't think we plan to overlap with the threat modelling CG; Simone is involved in both groups
21:19:47 [dom]
s|/|:
21:19:50 [jbroman]
q?
21:19:51 [dom]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-mdn-security-minutes.html dom
21:19:58 [jbroman]
q- jbroman
21:19:58 [ddworken]
Also https://arturjanc.com/coi-threat-model.pdf
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RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:40:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-mdn-security-minutes.html dom
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