14:55:47 RRSAgent has joined #ladybird 14:55:51 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-ladybird-irc 14:55:51 RRSAgent, do not leave 14:55:52 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:55:53 Meeting: 🐞Ladybird: A new, independent browser engine — written from scratch 14:55:53 Chair: Michael[tm] Smith (sideshowbarker), Andrew Kaster, Jelle Raaijmakers, Tim Ledbetter 14:55:53 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2024-breakouts/issues/56 14:55:53 Zakim has joined #ladybird 14:55:54 Zakim, clear agenda 14:55:54 agenda cleared 14:55:54 Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe 14:55:55 agendum 1 added 14:55:55 Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy 14:55:55 agendum 2 added 14:55:55 Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session 14:55:57 agendum 3 added 14:55:57 Zakim, agenda+ Discussion 14:55:57 agendum 4 added 14:55:57 Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues 14:55:58 agendum 5 added 14:55:58 tpac-breakout-bot has left #ladybird 15:10:13 tidoust has joined #ladybird 15:48:21 anssik has joined #ladybird 16:54:17 akaster has joined #ladybird 16:56:45 gmta has joined #ladybird 17:00:07 riju1 has joined #ladybird 17:02:41 bkardell_ has joined #ladybird 17:02:42 duga has joined #ladybird 17:02:48 kevin has joined #ladybird 17:02:48 ZoeBijl has joined #ladybird 17:02:53 present+ 17:02:59 oriol has joined #ladybird 17:03:00 alice has joined #ladybird 17:03:01 siye has joined #ladybird 17:03:01 mustaq has joined #ladybird 17:03:03 present+ 17:03:05 JJ has joined #ladybird 17:03:06 emeyer has joined #ladybird 17:03:09 present+ 17:03:10 present+ 17:03:10 present+ 17:03:11 cpn has joined #ladybird 17:03:13 present+ 17:03:14 present+ 17:03:17 presetn+ 17:03:17 present+ Chris_Needham 17:03:19 present+ 17:03:22 caribou has joined #ladybird 17:03:24 present+ 17:03:25 Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen 17:03:39 rrsagent, pointer 17:03:39 See https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-ladybird-irc#T17-03-39 17:03:43 sefeng has joined #ladybird 17:03:44 alastairc has joined #ladybird 17:03:46 scribe+ 17:03:47 smaug has joined #ladybird 17:03:47 kenneth has joined #ladybird 17:03:52 tink has joined #ladybird 17:04:07 estark has joined #ladybird 17:04:08 sideshowbarker has joined #ladybird 17:04:09 present+ Léonie Watson 17:04:12 present+ 17:04:16 Yay Servo ;) 17:04:16 marie has joined #ladybird 17:04:20 Jay has joined #ladybird 17:04:21 carlosj has joined #ladybird 17:04:50 TOPIC: Introduction 17:04:54 Chuck has joined #ladybird 17:05:03 present+ 17:05:25 omt has joined #ladybird 17:05:26 Michael introducing himself, nicknamed Mike 17:05:53 Mike informs us that he starts the day by eating fermented soya beans (with joy) 17:06:12 Jelle is introducing himself as one of the devs 17:06:37 cbiesinger has joined #ladybird 17:06:51 krosylight has joined #ladybird 17:07:01 present+ 17:07:37 Andrew is introducing himself with multiple roles 17:07:42 present+ 17:07:51 TOPIC: Upfront questions 17:08:18 Leonie: accessibility tree documentation or alternatives 17:08:39 Someone: what to do when there is no existing spec 17:08:54 accessibility tree documentation /accessibility tree implementation / 17:08:59 Person: how does it (ladybird) do on benchmarks 17:09:13 MikeW has joined #ladybird 17:09:19 Attendee: who is Ladybird intended for 17:09:34 mentioning debugging is useful for them 17:09:58 Questions about security, architecture, process model 17:10:12 Question about browser extensions, auto-fill behavior 17:11:01 Question about funding - you got some funding; but need more - how do you want to scale up? 17:11:29 Question about the effects of social media on open-source 17:12:01 Question about web driver implementation 17:12:15 mjwilson has joined #ladybird 17:12:29 q? 17:12:55 TOPIC: Ladybird overview 17:13:24 Is this a fork? NO. It's completely written from scratch. 17:13:51 There's some issues with audio quality. It seems like Mike's mic doesn't work on Zoom, and we're only hearing the room mics 17:14:24 What makes the project different? It's truly independent and there is a promise that the project will not accept search engine revenue and user monitization. Result = dependent on sponsorships. 17:15:59 Ladybird progressed over time, it started as an HTML viewer. Starting from 2022, Andreas started to create a user interface and named the project Ladybird. Late 2022, Andreas decided to work full-time on Ladybird and it became independent from the OS development it was a part of. 17:16:28 There are three board members now, Andreas, Chris and Tim 17:17:01 Community involvement is very important to Ladybird 17:17:11 TOPIC: Roadmap 17:17:19 Currently not doing any releases. 17:17:31 If you want to try the browser, you have to build it from the source code 17:17:43 [Mike gives the Ladybird history: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2024-breakouts/issues/56] 17:17:45 It will stay this way for 2 more years 17:18:08 From 2026 there will be an alpha version release (downloadable installer) 17:18:18 Stable release is planned for 2027 17:18:44 TOPIC: Why are we doing this browser from scratch 17:18:45 r has joined #ladybird 17:18:58 msw has joined #ladybird 17:19:04 It started because we wanted a browser for the OS project 17:19:19 On Linux we had a headless browser engine working 17:19:49 We wanted to build this for us because we wanted to build everything from scratch, including the browser 17:20:27 After a blog post there was an overwhelming response from the community which led to seeing how far we could take this browser 17:21:16 It was also driven by rebellion to show there is an alternative to monocultures and to taking search engine money 17:21:44 TOPIC: Social Media presence 17:22:01 Mentioning that Andreas has a relatively high profile and created over 1000 YouTube videos 17:22:46 Mike is mentioning how he got involved because he liked the energy and inspired him 17:24:01 Comparison with Servo browser engine 17:25:15 Someone in public making a point about if it's desirable to be driven by social media presence 17:25:28 TOPIC: Funding 17:26:00 Jelle mentioning that Andreas has managed to get serious funding to continue the development 17:26:19 garykac has joined #ladybird 17:26:31 Chris and his family donated 1 million USD. This gives the team a runway of 1,5 to 2-3 years 17:26:49 Ladybird now has a 503c based in California 17:27:10 People can sponsor the project by donating 17:27:23 Companies can also sponsor the project 17:27:31 q? 17:27:33 q+ 17:27:44 Target group is people/companies in tech industry 17:27:46 ack bkardell_ 17:28:21 What is the incentive to donate for people and companies? 17:28:35 "no strings attached"? 17:28:48 Good drivers vs bad drivers? 17:29:13 s/503c/501c3/ 17:30:16 q+ 17:30:19 Mike mentioning an additional significant donation from Eron Wolf from Futo 17:31:07 Jelle mentions that the shared motivator for donations has been the startup vibes / new kid on the block and excitement to see a new browser 17:31:17 q+ 17:31:45 q- 17:31:52 ... how are we going to replace the funding? No clear plan yet 17:32:56 ... goal is truly to work with people/companies no strings attached - only exception is trying to get that person/companies website to work with ladybird 17:33:32 hiroshige has joined #ladybird 17:33:38 Andreas: mentions that Eron believes that developers who work in big tech should not work there but should instead build things that are helpful to the larger developer community 17:34:46 ... mentioning the difference between Ladybird and Servo is the story about the origin, speed, etc. that catches peoples attention. Servo has had its starts and stops which might be less motivating. 17:35:02 q? 17:35:33 Andrew mentioning eron wolf story, andreas is not on the call :) 17:36:05 s/Andreas:/Andrew: 17:36:10 ack duga 17:36:27 hyojin_ has joined #ladybird 17:37:52 duga: mentioning their confusion of the funding model because donations might influence the direction 17:38:14 Q? 17:38:25 Agenda? 17:38:43 Jelle: explaining that the board is in control and they will check if things are in line with the mission 17:39:10 q+ 17:39:49 scribe+ 17:40:03 Q+ to ask about a code of conduct 17:40:05 s/board/maintainer team/ 17:40:10 mjwilson has joined #ladybird 17:40:15 Mike: mentions how companies might help by paying for developer time or developing something that is in line with the Ladybird mission 17:40:17 Topic: Security 17:40:56 estark: Interested in security architecture 17:41:12 Andreu: We have a separate security process 17:41:29 …We have a lot of different processes: networking, image rendering, etc. 17:41:41 …The processes talk to each other 17:41:42 …We don’t quite have site isolation 17:42:01 …The model is that every tab gets its own process that shares the same JS 17:42:15 …We want to move to one process per origin, either for alpha or beta 17:42:21 Igarashi has joined #ladybird 17:42:31 …We are trying to experiment with having all workers getting their own process, including dedicated workers 17:42:44 present+ 17:42:58 …For other security architecture things, we’re planning to do OS-level sandboxing 17:43:02 …I don’t think that will be any time soon 17:43:18 q+ 17:43:18 …We are using separate processes for things we’re ingesting 17:43:46 q- 17:43:52 gerald has joined #ladybird 17:43:58 robwu: What is the meaningful security boundary between a page process and a worker? 17:44:22 Andrew: I don’t think I have a detailed answer 17:44:34 sideshowbarker: We can follow up later in detail 17:44:43 ???: Are you using a different model? 17:44:54 Andrew: We’re trying to follow best practices 17:45:05 …Other browsers are doing things better than us and we’ll catch up 17:45:17 …I think we can get to that same level of security with effort 17:45:33 q? 17:45:40 ack bkardell_ 17:45:50 ack ZoeBijl 17:45:50 ZoeBijl, you wanted to ask about a code of conduct 17:46:07 ZoeBijl: I was wondering about the lack of a code of conduct 17:46:15 sideshowbarker: We will address that 17:46:33 q- 17:46:43 q+ 17:47:09 sideshowbarker: (missed by scribe) 17:47:25 …Let’s talk about Code of Conduct 17:47:45 Andrew: The culture we’re trying to cultivate is one where anyone can come in and contribute 17:47:52 …If it’s good code, we’ll accept it 17:47:58 …If there are bad actors, we’ll ask them to leave 17:48:15 …We have some sense of expectations in our Discord and contributor document 17:48:25 Q+ 17:48:34 …We haven’t nailed that down into a CoC because there’s resistance from some folks to having such a thing 17:48:46 Q+ to ask about that resistance 17:48:50 …The goal is to keep things going and address problems as they arise 17:49:20 ???: We do have contributing guidelines that do embody CoC policies, and we hope people read them and take them into account 17:49:33 …In due time, we might end up adding a formal CoC document 17:49:49 …Although it’s not a document, we do have guidelines we live by 17:50:18 ???: What is the open source license for Ladybird, and is it copyleft? 17:50:26 BSD2 clause, so not copyleft 17:50:42 ???: Is there anything preventing someone from taking it and making it commercial? 17:50:50 Andrew: I don’t think so. 17:51:00 sideshowbarker: There are social brakes on that 17:51:20 …Back to CoC, I’m not involved that long; since end of July 17:51:37 …My perspective is that I have not noticed an unwelcoming culture 17:52:04 …I have a very limited perspective, but I talked with others and haven’«t heard any problems with inclusiveness 17:52:29 …We did have someone on Discord who seemed to misinterpreting something on social media and was negative 17:52:37 q 17:52:41 q? 17:53:00 …Other people on the project made it clear he was being negative and out of line; he wasn’t contributing and was only pushing his agenda 17:53:07 …He was shut down pretty quickly 17:53:15 Andrew: That sounds about right 17:53:37 …If people want to stir things up, they can go back to social mnedia 17:53:43 ack kevin 17:54:05 kevin: A question about the accesibility tree and 20-odd years of work 17:54:13 sideshowbarker: I did write a small patch for the ARIA code 17:54:32 …We were following the ARIA spec and an attribute had been commented out 17:54:43 …Other browsers implemented it before it was commented out 17:54:58 …We came in later, after commenting out, and we failed reflection tests 17:55:14 …So I got that fixed in the ARIA spec and implemented on the assumption of that change happening 17:55:34 denkeni has joined #ladybird 17:55:34 …I’m the one touching the ARIA code and I intend to make a fully conformant ARIA implementation 17:55:41 q+ to ask about more basic accessibility semantics like implicit HTML semantics 17:55:46 …I don’t know how to test this; all I can test is reflection 17:55:58 …I don’t think any of us on the team know how to do accessibility testing 17:56:15 …I’m looking to contribute to all accessibility, the tree and all 17:56:34 …Can’t speak to the overarching plans, but personally, that’s a giant priority vfor me 17:56:42 ack me 17:56:42 tink, you wanted to ask about more basic accessibility semantics like implicit HTML semantics 17:56:43 …We’re getting it done from the beginning 17:57:15 ack ZoeBijl 17:57:16 ZoeBijl, you wanted to ask about that resistance 17:57:26 ZoeBijl: You mentioned resistance to a CoC 17:57:33 …Whatever that resistance is, you should solve it 17:57:47 q+ 17:57:50 …It showing privilege, and you can’t expect open contributions from everyone without a CoC 17:58:01 …This is a W3C event, which has a good CoC 17:58:08 sideshowbarker: I agree 17:58:18 q+ to ask about all the questions solicited at the beginning that there is no longer time for 17:58:26 hiroshige has joined #ladybird 17:58:27 …I won’t forget about this, and will push for this 17:58:43 …To the degree I’m able to, the cultural and diversity aspects will be improved 17:58:49 …If there’s reisitance, we’ll work it out 17:58:57 ZoeBijl: I’m happy to help with such a thing 17:59:01 q? 17:59:26 ack bkardell_ 17:59:53 bkardell_: Have you discussed joining W3C? 17:59:58 sideshowbarker: We have not 18:00:13 …I’ll have that discussion at some point 18:00:25 ack garykac 18:00:25 garykac, you wanted to ask about all the questions solicited at the beginning that there is no longer time for 18:00:49 garykac: What do you do when there’s no spec or when things are way out of line with modern specs 18:01:16 Andrew: The short answer is there’s two things: 18:01:21 …what is in WPT? 18:01:38 …If there’s no other option, we can look at other browser engines from 50 paces away with our eyes closed 18:02:00 …User interaction based on feedback will guide us as well 18:02:22 garykac: There’s a huge gaping hole around internationalization 18:02:36 sideshowbarker: Yeah, in cases like that, we do have to write from scratch 18:03:07 …For those whose questions we didn’t get to, please find me and we’ll talk about it 18:03:10 …Thanks for everyone coming and asking good questions 18:03:20 Topic: End of session 18:05:09 kenneth has left #ladybird 18:05:42 Zakim, end the meeting 18:05:42 As of this point the attendees have been duga, ZoeBijl, alice, JJ, bkardell_, oriol, emeyer, Chris_Needham, kevin, mustaq, Anssi_Kostiainen, Léonie, Watson, estark, Chuck, Jay, 18:05:45 ... krosylight, Igarashi 18:05:45 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 18:05:46 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-ladybird-minutes.html Zakim 18:05:53 I am happy to have been of service, emeyer; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 18:05:53 Zakim has left #ladybird 18:06:19 RRSAgent, excuse us 18:06:19 I see no action items