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14:45:52 <tpac-breakout-bot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:45:53 <tpac-breakout-bot> Meeting: Discuss: How to build a new feature for the web platform — and make it a success with developers
14:45:53 <tpac-breakout-bot> Chair: Michael[tm] Smith (sideshowbarker)
14:45:53 <tpac-breakout-bot> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2024-breakouts/issues/7
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14:45:54 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, clear agenda
14:45:54 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:45:54 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe
14:45:55 <Zakim> agendum 1 added
14:45:55 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
14:45:56 <Zakim> agendum 2 added
14:45:56 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session
14:45:56 <Zakim> agendum 3 added
14:45:56 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Discussion
14:45:57 <Zakim> agendum 4 added
14:45:57 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
14:45:57 <Zakim> agendum 5 added
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20:22:01 <annette_g> present+
20:22:28 <petele> present+
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20:24:02 <zcorpan> ScribeNick: zcorpan
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20:24:09 <JJ> present+
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20:24:30 <zcorpan> Topic: Feature Success
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20:24:39 <dbaron> Present+
20:24:40 <zcorpan> RRSAgent: make minutes
20:24:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-feature-success-minutes.html zcorpan
20:24:49 <zcorpan> q?
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20:25:20 <zcorpan> Adrian: I'm with the ARIA WG, my interest is helping to make sure new features are accessible
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20:25:21 <arma> present+
20:25:28 <ty-everett> present+
20:25:31 <zcorpan> Adrian: exposed in a way that users can understand, use etc
20:25:33 <JaseW> present+
20:25:35 <karlcow> q+
20:25:40 <jamesn> q+
20:25:46 <ty-everett> q+
20:25:47 <eemeli> present+
20:25:50 <kgovind9> q+
20:25:58 <aki> present+
20:26:05 <eemeli> q+
20:26:07 <zcorpan> Karl: features are implemented in different timelines sometimes
20:26:26 <zcorpan> Karl: ???
20:26:36 <zcorpan> q?
20:26:38 <jamesn> ack me
20:26:42 <zcorpan> ack karlcow
20:26:47 <selya> q+
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20:27:14 <karlcow> S/???/How do we handle differences of implementations? How do we handle the breakage across browsers? (Interop/webcompat)
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20:27:17 <zcorpan> jamesn: it's hard to build enthusiasm around accessibility features
20:27:17 <niklas> present+
20:27:32 <zcorpan> mike: it's neglected someitmes
20:27:39 <zcorpan> mike: don't have a good way to measure
20:27:46 <zcorpan> q?
20:28:09 <zcorpan> ty-everett: I'm interested in learning the process around getting new features added to browsers
20:28:12 <zcorpan> ack ty-everett
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20:28:21 <aardrian> present+
20:28:49 <zcorpan> kgovind9: I work for Chrome. We have various processes etc. One thing I noticed that a lot of devs aren't familiar with W3C
20:29:15 <zcorpan> kgovind9: We say "can you open an issue", folks don't have a github account or don't have experience working with standards
20:29:18 <zcorpan> q?
20:29:21 <zcorpan> ack kgovind9
20:29:44 <zcorpan> eemeli: I work in localization, mozilla. It's a thing developers think they can fix afterwards
20:29:51 <zcorpan> eemeli: everyone invents their own thing
20:30:09 <zcorpan> eemeli: we've been working with the unicode CLDR, introducing a new standard messaging format
20:30:13 <kgovind9> q-
20:30:27 <zcorpan> eemeli: hwo can we make sure the thing we're building that does all the things actually gets adoption
20:30:48 <zcorpan> ack eemeli
20:31:21 <zcorpan> selya: Common problems that can be addressed in the early stages of the design
20:31:35 <zcorpan> ack selya
20:31:42 <zcorpan> mike: There are no magic answers
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20:31:56 <arma> q+
20:31:56 <zcorpan> q?
20:32:36 <zcorpan> arma: We (Intel) have been implementing device sensors. Hard to get feedback
20:32:59 <zcorpan> arma: how is it for other browsers or other people. Who is using our API, how can we interact with them
20:33:17 <aki> q+
20:33:27 <zcorpan> zcorpan: ???
20:33:51 <dbaron> zcorpan: one thing is doing an origin trial if your feature is new.  At least Chromium has a way to get feedback from people participating in the origin trial.
20:34:04 <dbaron> zcorpan: Firefox has origin trials but doesn't have a formal way to collect feedback from them.  That's one way.
20:34:33 <dbaron> zcorpan: Another way, if your feature is shipping in stable already, there's a project called HTTPArchive, where you can query for anything having to do with source code of websites in the data
20:34:58 <dbaron> zcorpan: so if you have a use counter for your feature that's queryable in HTTPArchive, can get a list of websites and find contact information for those websites.
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20:35:43 <zcorpan> karl: partner with someone who is asking for the feature
20:35:48 <andreubotella> q+
20:36:02 <zcorpan> ack arma
20:36:07 <zcorpan> q?
20:36:11 <zcorpan> ack aki
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20:36:28 <zcorpan> aki: curious if there are web devs in the room. A few folks raise hands
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20:36:58 <zcorpan> (blockchain, webviews...)
20:37:01 <zcorpan> q?
20:37:24 <zcorpan> eemeli: I've build YAML which has a few users
20:37:46 <annette_g> I build web apps for scientists
20:37:48 <zcorpan> mike: get feedback as early as possible on feature design
20:37:58 <zcorpan> q?
20:38:10 <zcorpan> mike: w3c is open now, it didn't used to be that way
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20:38:26 <aardrian> present+
20:38:34 <zcorpan> mike: don't even need to be a w3c member to have influence
20:38:54 <niklas> q+
20:38:56 <zcorpan> ack andreubotella
20:39:18 <zcorpan> andreubotella: We were discussing, in order to fix something you need to know what needs fixing
20:39:31 <zcorpan> andreubotella: browser centric workflow
20:39:44 <zcorpan> andreubotella: web dev workflow is they already have an issue
20:39:54 <zcorpan> andreubotella: can hire Igalia to fix browser issues
20:40:08 <zcorpan> andreubotella: can also figure out if your proposal makes sense etc
20:40:39 <zcorpan> q?
20:40:44 <zcorpan> ack niklas
20:41:10 <zcorpan> niklas: browser versions break things in our apps. Raised issues but no response
20:41:12 <petele> q+
20:41:16 <karlcow> https://bugs.webkit.org/ WebKit
20:41:16 <karlcow> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/ Firefox
20:41:16 <karlcow> https://issues.chromium.org/issues
20:41:16 <karlcow> Broken web browser https://webcompat.com/
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20:41:31 <karlcow> q+
20:41:38 <zcorpan> niklas: reported a few years ago, with repro. Sometimes no replies
20:41:47 <zcorpan> q?
20:41:57 <zcorpan> ack petele
20:42:00 <zcorpan> ack karlcow
20:42:22 <zcorpan> karlcow: you can report to webcompat.com for broken websites in any browser
20:42:49 <zcorpan> karlcow: web devs can file bugs there
20:42:57 <jamesn> q+
20:43:15 <zcorpan> karlcow: issues can go from there to the browsers own bug trackers
20:43:34 <zcorpan> niklas: in my case it was a webview issue
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20:44:14 <zcorpan> mike: In my experience, I look at a lot of bugs, I try to be a good citizen. Karl does this fulltime at webkit
20:44:46 <zcorpan> mike: I cc karlcow and put a certain keyword in the keyword field...
20:45:15 <zcorpan> mike: anyone can do this. If you see a bug and it doesn't get attention, see who you need to alert
20:45:29 <zcorpan> q?
20:45:33 <karlcow> I'm karlcow
20:45:36 <jamesn> ack me
20:45:38 <zcorpan> ack jamesn
20:45:57 <zcorpan> jamesn: for webcompat, for live sites... what if you're still developing
20:46:12 <aardrian> +1 to James on the accessibility issue reporting
20:46:34 <zcorpan> karlcow: you could do it on webcompat.com
20:47:00 <zcorpan> karlcow: people will look at it and forward
20:47:31 <zcorpan> jamesn: is it just an extra layer, or not
20:48:04 <zcorpan> q?
20:48:54 <zcorpan> mike: one opera person left, another one came in. So we have 4 again
20:49:35 <zcorpan> dbaron: if you have somethign that you know is a bug in particular browser, I would encourage you to file it for that browser directly
20:49:38 <zcorpan> zcorpan: I agree
20:49:48 <karlcow> Karlcow: agreed
20:50:12 <zcorpan> mike: web dev feedback... hard problem to solve
20:50:13 <aki> q+
20:50:54 <zcorpan> mike: I'm an elected moderator at stackoverflow... went on strike last year. I didn't return
20:51:20 <zcorpan> mike: before chatgpt, it was easier. Folks went there to ask questions. I mined that data, in a manual or semi-automated fasion
20:51:38 <zcorpan> mike: I tried to figure out what are the things that are causing people pain
20:51:43 <zcorpan> mike: for the web platform
20:51:53 <zcorpan> mike: something we can do, but is timeconsuming
20:52:16 <zcorpan> mike: there are tags, e.g. websocket
20:52:41 <zcorpan> mike: requires resources and time for someone to do that. But should be possible to do in a better way than I did
20:52:49 <zcorpan> q?
20:53:00 <zcorpan> ack aki
20:53:21 <zcorpan> aki: I'm from Ecma. Universities pay dues
20:53:32 <zcorpan> aki: they do research
20:53:48 <zcorpan> aki: put together effective research questions. How folks use our APIs
20:54:00 <gsnedders> q?
20:54:05 <zcorpan> aki: it's not automated, it's hard, but gets useful info
20:54:29 <aki> *Universities pay NO dues to participate in Ecma
20:54:32 <zcorpan> mike: recommend https://browser.engineering
20:54:56 <zcorpan> mike: tutorial on how to build a browser engine in python
20:55:25 <zcorpan> mike: the authors Chris Harrelson, Pavel Panchekha
20:55:41 <zcorpan> mike: Pavel has students who are also interested in our problem space
20:56:04 <zcorpan> mike: how can we hook into a way that the students can do research on etc
20:56:24 <zcorpan> mike: how we can exploit academia :D
20:56:48 <zcorpan> mike: when you look for dev problems, things you assume is a great solution e.g. service workers
20:57:04 <zcorpan> mike: in practice, web devs have said, it's not the greatest thing
20:57:18 <zcorpan> mike: appcache tho
20:57:25 <zcorpan> mike: a lot of folks use websockets
20:58:02 <zcorpan> mike: try to drive adoption, sometimes still don't get it right
20:58:11 <zcorpan> aki: getting merchants to participate is hard
20:58:15 <zcorpan> q?
20:58:33 <zcorpan> ack dbaron
20:58:36 <zcorpan> dbaron: in the response to getting things wrong
20:58:47 <zcorpan> dbaron: one thing we see is valuable, is getting real feedback sooner
20:58:58 <zcorpan> dbaron: sometimes ship peacemeal
20:59:21 <zcorpan> dbaron: sometimes dangerous to design a whole new thing, without knowing how to validate that it's good
20:59:28 <zcorpan> q?
20:59:57 <zcorpan> mike: Step 0, I learned from Ian Hickson
21:00:04 <zcorpan> mike: go back and describe your problem
21:00:24 <zcorpan> mike: when ask people to do this, they often don't give you a use case, they give you a solution
21:00:42 <zcorpan> mike: identify in a few sentences, what problem are you trying to solve
21:00:53 <zcorpan> mike: get agreement that it's a problem
21:01:01 <aki> q+
21:01:17 <zcorpan> mike: monitoring usage and success
21:01:21 <zcorpan> mike: Interop 2024
21:01:53 <zcorpan> mike: kadir and foolip identify a discrete set of web dev pain points
21:02:10 <zcorpan> mike: what's the process to get things into browsers, first describe the problem
21:02:46 <zcorpan> mike: if the problem needs a change to the HTML spec, file an issue at whatwg/html
21:03:17 <zcorpan> mike: optionally, if you care to propose a solution, you can offer a concrete description of a solution
21:03:41 <zcorpan> mike: going the other way doesn't work well
21:04:11 <zcorpan> mike: if we don't have evidence that it's a common web dev problem, won't be prioritized
21:04:43 <zcorpan> mike: another common mistake is folks get too involved in their solution and forget the original problem
21:04:55 <zcorpan> q?
21:05:03 <zcorpan> ack aki
21:05:32 <zcorpan> aki: I agree. Once you have identified the problem, figure out if it's someone else's problem
21:06:12 <zcorpan> mike: something that's measurable or confirmable
21:06:38 <zcorpan> mike: Book, how to win friends and influence people
21:07:11 <karlcow> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_People
21:07:16 <zcorpan> mike: I often give a copy away
21:07:31 <zcorpan> mike: you can't do things on your own
21:08:00 <zcorpan> mike: unless you'll implement it yourself, which you can, but you still need to get someone to review
21:08:00 <zcorpan> q+
21:08:09 <zcorpan> mike: go back to first principles
21:08:17 <zcorpan> mike: communicate things in the right way
21:08:26 <zcorpan> mike: fall into "someone's wrong on the internet"
21:09:06 <zcorpan> mike: one of the things in the book is "you can't win an argument"
21:09:32 <zcorpan> mike: shouldn't rathole in issue trackers over an argument
21:09:53 <zcorpan> mike: focus on convincing people of things, treat interactions as a job interview for a job you really want
21:10:05 <zcorpan> mike: maybe the interviewer is not super competent
21:10:32 <zcorpan> mike: what can I do to get this unfortunate interview interaction, to convince the person
21:10:52 <zcorpan> mike: get people to act on what you say
21:11:18 <zcorpan> zcorpan: ???
21:12:15 <zcorpan> s/???/still need to convince browsers that the thing is important and something they want to maintain/
21:12:34 <zcorpan> karlcow: cost is very high to introduce something to the web. Need to maintain forever
21:12:44 <zcorpan> mike: need to convince the code owners
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21:13:08 <zcorpan> mike: if you write a spec, need to be committed to maintaining that spec for the rest of your life
21:13:30 <zcorpan> mike: you'll get bug reports on the spec
21:13:41 <aki> or worse, you'll get CVEs
21:13:43 <zcorpan> zcorpan: https://wpc.guide
21:14:33 <zcorpan> mike: was this useful?
21:14:50 <zcorpan> mike: open to feedback
21:15:32 <zcorpan> RRSAgent: make minutes
21:15:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-feature-success-minutes.html zcorpan
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