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15:04:18 <tpac-breakout-bot> Meeting: Mitigate Threats for Digital Credentials API
15:04:18 <tpac-breakout-bot> Chair: Simone Onofri
15:04:18 <tpac-breakout-bot> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2024-breakouts/issues/98
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15:04:19 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, clear agenda
15:04:19 <Zakim> agenda cleared
15:04:19 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe
15:04:20 <Zakim> agendum 1 added
15:04:20 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
15:04:20 <Zakim> agendum 2 added
15:04:20 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session
15:04:23 <Zakim> agendum 3 added
15:04:23 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Discussion
15:04:23 <Zakim> agendum 4 added
15:04:23 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
15:04:23 <Zakim> agendum 5 added
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18:19:07 <rbyers> present+
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18:22:09 <reillyg> scribe+
18:22:24 <reillyg> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:22:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-credential-threats-minutes.html reillyg
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18:23:22 <kdenhartog> present+
18:23:32 <Geun-Hyung> present+
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18:24:05 <reillyg> slideset https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/10wT2N4b5I2DX41hQY7uPX8cMpmHzCBcflp33ZB9I67s/edit?usp=drivesdk
18:24:05 <ErikAnderson> present+
18:24:06 <bumblefudge> present+
18:24:12 <wes-smith> present+
18:24:17 <bumblefudge> should we self-introduce on irc?
18:24:17 <reillyg> [slide 3]
18:24:17 <AramZS> present+
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18:24:39 <GregB> present+
18:24:41 <Wip> present+
18:24:43 <mandyv> present+
18:24:52 <reillyg> [slide 4]
18:25:02 <DavidTurner> present+
18:25:12 <svaldez> present+
18:25:59 <reillyg> [slide 5
18:26:06 <reillyg> s/[slide 5/[slide 5]/
18:27:33 <reillyg> [slide 6]
18:28:36 <reillyg> [slide 7]
18:28:52 <reillyg> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:28:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-credential-threats-minutes.html reillyg
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18:29:16 <xfq> present+
18:32:03 <reillyg> [slide 8]
18:32:38 <reillyg> [slide 9]
18:33:27 <reillyg> simone: The user (holder) only needs to trust the browser and wallet.
18:33:42 <reillyg> [slide 10]
18:35:55 <reillyg> [slide 11]
18:37:07 <reillyg> [slide 12]
18:37:58 <reillyg> [slide 13]
18:38:33 <rbyers> q+
18:38:50 <reillyg> [slide 14]
18:39:44 <reillyg> [slide 15]
18:39:58 <reillyg> [slide 20]
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18:40:22 <bumblefudge> threat modeling document not open on gdocs
18:40:33 <bumblefudge> or rather, the credentials i'm presenting aren't enough to see it :D
18:41:13 <reillyg> ack rbyers
18:41:13 <bumblefudge> q?
18:41:27 <bumblefudge> Q+ to talk about framing concepts
18:41:39 <reillyg> rbyers: Let's discuss perpetuating sharing of data by making an API available.
18:42:17 <reillyg> ... Today with the EUDI wallet when using a custom scheme it goes directly to the wallet, while the browser API goes through extra screens.
18:42:20 <kdenhartog> q+
18:42:34 <reillyg> ... So the browser API has greater friction. Does that make it less available?
18:43:02 <bumblefudge> for the scribe
18:43:12 <bumblefudge> that's anthony nadalin
18:43:34 <bumblefudge> https://github.com/WICG/mobile-document-request-api/issues/6
18:43:34 <bumblefudge> ^ tried adding this to the slides as a definition of Jevon's Paradox but its permissions are locked down
18:44:10 <reillyg> Tony: You might trust the custom scheme more than the browser because the API is more opaque to it.
18:44:41 <reillyg> rbyers: The question here is whether the browser here to be the user's agent (protecting user privacy) or is it a threat actor (potentially mining user data)?
18:44:51 <reillyg> ... That's a reasonable perspective but I disagree.
18:46:04 <simone> q+
18:46:04 <reillyg> Muhammad, is an API or custom scheme easier for the developers?
18:46:21 <reillyg> rbyers: I don't think choice of tech will influence adoption, except for interoperability.
18:46:42 <reillyg> Tony: Browsers may deprecate or block specific custom URI schemes.
18:47:11 <reillyg> rbyers: Chrome's latest position is that it will not block custom URI schemes, but may introduce speedbumps.
18:47:37 <reillyg> ... We were concerned about malicious web sites reaching out to wallets via custom schemes
18:47:52 <reillyg> ... I believe Firefox has gone on the record that they may block.
18:47:59 <bumblefudge> q?
18:47:59 <reillyg> Tony: There are issues both ways.
18:48:04 <wseltzer> q?
18:48:08 <simone> q?
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18:48:26 <simone> ack bum
18:48:26 <Zakim> bumblefudge, you wanted to talk about framing concepts
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18:49:15 <reillyg> bumblefudge, It feels like we've jumped ahead to assuming that a browser API is how all credentials will be passed.
18:49:51 <reillyg> ... which formats are used needs to be part of the conversation
18:50:29 <reillyg> ... the threat model should consider the non-technical threats of allowing credentials to be passed anywhere that browsers are installed
18:51:07 <reillyg> ... more or less browser friction doesn't solve the legal problem, the Jevon's Paradox problem
18:51:41 <bumblefudge> q-
18:51:52 <rbyers> q+
18:52:25 <reillyg> simone: The objective of the threat model is to understand the global threats
18:52:48 <reillyg> ... Also to understand the requirements, what are the privacy and security properties we need to protect
18:53:56 <reillyg> ack kdenhartog
18:54:27 <bumblefudge> aram: evaluative methods !== solving underlying problems, it's encouraging implementers to own their role in the rollout of technology in society
18:54:30 <reillyg> kdenhartog: We see that there are 2nd order effects that come into play when bringing in an API.
18:54:52 <bumblefudge> governments LOVE evaluative methods to tell them which levers and cudgels are worth reaching for
18:54:56 <reillyg> ... This ossifies the way that it should be done.
18:55:20 <reillyg> ... E.g. we've seen issues trying to take out cookies
18:56:35 <reillyg> ... How we're going to pass credentials in the browser defines and ossifies how we're going to share credentials.
18:56:44 <kdenhartog> q-
18:56:44 <simone> q?
18:56:48 <reillyg> ack simone
18:57:03 <kdenhartog> q+
18:57:11 <bumblefudge> *simone we also need comment rights here: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1fvZ4aR5Q7ipoMRcrHnoJQ8aiiLJLC8UF/edit#slide=id.p1
18:57:26 <reillyg> simone: What can we do on different levels?
18:57:43 <bumblefudge> q?
18:57:43 <reillyg> ... (Asks the audience.)
18:57:48 <reillyg> ack kdenhartog
18:58:35 <reillyg> kdenhartog: We posit that this tech has been worked on for quite a long time and we wanted adoption when working in this space.
18:58:47 <reillyg> ... It wasn't until we left this space that there were social implications that come into play.
18:59:18 <reillyg> ... We've been able to limit the extent of the technology by limiting adoption.
18:59:35 <reillyg> ... Let this technology continue to grow on its own.
18:59:45 <reillyg> ... Once we have an understanding of the threat model, let it ossify.
18:59:53 <reillyg> ... Wait and see. Don't ossify now.
19:00:17 <dezell> q?
19:00:19 <reillyg> ... Why are we certain that this is the correct time to design, when we haven't seen it adopted.
19:00:28 <dezell> q+ to comment on mDL
19:01:05 <reillyg> Tony: mDL has an API, the goal of ISO was to find a more supported way of getting things out of the wallet
19:01:19 <reillyg> ... The interface is very specific about what you can get out of the wallet.
19:02:16 <reillyg> simone: While we wait... what can we do?
19:02:31 <reillyg> ... What would you (kdenhartog) like to see while we are waiting?
19:03:01 <reillyg> kdenhartog: We just wait. Is this the right time to move fast and break things?
19:03:12 <reillyg> ... We shouldn't be moving fast. Move slow and figure out the right answer.
19:03:30 <reillyg> ... If browser APIs are a form of ossification (like cookies) we shouldn't be moving fast.
19:03:41 <bumblefudge> q+ pam dingle is on the queue
19:03:48 <GregB> q+
19:03:54 <bumblefudge> q+ to put pam dingle is on the queue
19:04:28 <reillyg> simone: If I just wait, there might be a worse situation. While we wait, what should we be doing?
19:04:35 <wseltzer> q+ pam
19:04:41 <reillyg> kdenhartog: As a browser, do nothing. For people in this space, iterate at the app level.
19:05:08 <wseltzer> q+ nadalin
19:05:15 <AramZS> q+ John
19:05:24 <bumblefudge> q-
19:05:34 <dezell> q?
19:05:56 <reillyg> rbyers: I previously agreed, but governments moved to advance this tech, we risk missing the boat because it was ossifying already.
19:06:09 <reillyg> ... Do we let it ossify, or engage now to try to improve it.
19:06:30 <reillyg> ... It's more responsible to accept that it is happening and engage.
19:06:43 <reillyg> ... Google will not legally be allowed to ignore it.
19:07:00 <kdenhartog> q+
19:07:05 <reillyg> ... If we do nothing now, the W3C will be too late to do anything at all.
19:07:11 <simone> ack rby
19:07:15 <simone> ack dez
19:07:15 <Zakim> dezell, you wanted to comment on mDL
19:07:18 <rbyers> ack rbyers
19:07:48 <reillyg> dezell: I represent the convenience store industry. We've had to engage in age checking requirements.
19:08:15 <reillyg> ... Rejected mDL in the past, preferred Verifiable Credentials as it does not infect a data set
19:08:56 <simone> q?
19:09:03 <simone> ack greg
19:09:24 <reillyg> GregB: I come from VC perspective (application layer from your perspective).
19:09:49 <AramZS> q?
19:10:08 <reillyg> ... We're happy to help here and are working on new crypto standards for unlinkability.
19:10:20 <bumblefudge> q+ to push back on "decentralized versus federated" model a little
19:10:37 <reillyg> RRSAgent, draft minutes
19:10:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-credential-threats-minutes.html reillyg
19:10:50 <simone> q?
19:10:50 <AramZS> q+
19:11:11 <simone> q?
19:11:12 <reillyg> GregB: We can help on these issues.
19:11:23 <simone> ack pam
19:11:31 <reillyg> Pam: I'm glad we're having this conversation.
19:11:51 <reillyg> ... Ossification of de-facto vs. an intentional design
19:12:00 <simone> q?
19:12:10 <simone> ack nad
19:12:14 <simone> ack Joh
19:12:41 <reillyg> John_Bradley: Speaking with my EUID wallet provider hat on.
19:13:20 <reillyg> ... The research and education community has been building its own wallet.
19:13:53 <reillyg> ... We are concerned that QR code system introduces security vulns
19:13:57 <reillyg> ... Working on better cross device
19:14:24 <reillyg> ... Also concerned about a JS API that only supported mdocs
19:14:47 <reillyg> ... People are involved in our project because they want to see a more privacy-preserving option
19:15:16 <reillyg> ... If we do nothing, 40% of the ecosystem will have an mdocs-only API
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19:16:02 <reillyg> ... There are a lot of things stopping us from delivering perfect solutions on day 1.
19:16:35 <simone> q+ tony
19:16:37 <reillyg> ... European Commission at least wants a unified solution for age verification.
19:16:58 <reillyg> ... How do we direct some of the energy happening in the government space in a better direction.
19:17:03 <bumblefudge> q?
19:17:11 <reillyg> Tony: There is already an mdoc browser API.
19:17:19 <reillyg> ... It doesn't solve cross-device.
19:17:39 <reillyg> ... ISO is looking for a browser API to solve that, but it opens up some different problems.
19:17:44 <simone> q?
19:18:10 <reillyg> RRSAgent, draft minutes
19:18:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-credential-threats-minutes.html reillyg
19:18:51 <simone> ack kdenhartog
19:19:05 <reillyg> Zakim, close the queue
19:19:05 <Zakim> ok, reillyg, the speaker queue is closed
19:19:43 <reillyg> kdenhartog: To use FedCM as an example, OpenID has existed for a long time and bow is the point where a browser API is coming into play.
19:19:52 <reillyg> s/bow/now/
19:20:11 <reillyg> kdenhartog: If the goal is interoperability that is speeding up adoption and Jevon's Paradox.
19:20:47 <reillyg> ... We can make some decisions, like we've done in FedCM, but we're forcing decisions now.
19:21:06 <reillyg> ... We're going to determine the proper way of doing it by setting a browser API
19:21:35 <reillyg> ... mDLs haven't succeeded yet, so there isn't a good app-level design to turn into a browser API
19:21:35 <simone> q?
19:21:40 <reillyg> ack bumblefudge
19:21:40 <Zakim> bumblefudge, you wanted to push back on "decentralized versus federated" model a little
19:21:42 <simone> ack bum
19:22:04 <reillyg> bumblefudge: We shouldn't spend too much time on the speed up/down decision.
19:22:37 <reillyg> ... All the formats being compared here have different decentralization properties.
19:23:17 <reillyg> ... All of these layers aren't three-party models.
19:23:30 <reillyg> ... All of this has consequences for governments and regulators.
19:24:04 <reillyg> ... The evaluative questions matter as much as the threat model.
19:24:43 <reillyg> ... How you right an evaluative document can have more influence than API good/bad.
19:24:55 <simone> q?
19:25:00 <reillyg> ... Most important work is to evaluate the impact of the formats.
19:25:34 <reillyg> ... Governments would love that input from technical experts.
19:25:48 <reillyg> ack AramZS
19:25:52 <simone> ack ara
19:26:09 <reillyg> AramZS: It seems like there will be an increasing number of entities who feel they have to consume these credentials.
19:26:35 <reillyg> ... Consider whether consumers won't want to consume all the data in these credentials.
19:26:54 <reillyg> ... Then on the other hand consumers who want data that we don't want them to consume.
19:27:13 <reillyg> ... I don't want people to have to present their driver's license to prove they're human.
19:27:30 <simone> q?
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19:27:39 <reillyg> ack Tony
19:27:46 <reillyg> RRSAgent, draft minutes
19:27:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-credential-threats-minutes.html reillyg
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