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15:59:07 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Roy
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15:59:23 <Roy> meeting: Accessible Platform Architectures Working Group, Publishing Maintenance Working Group Joint Meeting
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16:03:26 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/24-apa-minutes.html matatk
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16:10:37 <matatk> meeting: APA & PM
16:10:45 <matatk> topic: Fixed layout
16:10:48 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
16:10:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/24-apa-minutes.html matatk
16:11:32 <CharlesL1> matatk: where there might be challenges for accessibility.
16:11:48 <CharlesL1> ... 1. support for reading order.
16:12:01 <CharlesL1> ... 2. authoring tool support offering that / User agents.
16:12:10 <CharlesL1> ... 3. title of doument
16:13:18 <CharlesL1> wendyreid: introduction: fixed layout origin - started as a joint community group in cooropteration with EAA / A11y 1.1 spe.
16:13:30 <CharlesL1> ... concern around FL (Fixed Layout)
16:13:47 <CharlesL1> ... miss information fixed layout was exempt misconseption.
16:14:09 <CharlesL1> ... best practices document would be good for stating what you could do with fixed layout for a11y.
16:14:38 <CharlesL1> ... currently not fully accessible.  Publshers can do some work to make it as accessible as possible.
16:14:57 <CharlesL1> ... explain where a11y can be implemented. feedback on language and where to improve.
16:15:16 <CharlesL1> ... we know this does not cover everything, we want to do a techniques document with code examples.
16:15:45 <CharlesL1> ... FL a11y - potential ideas to solve some of these issues.  this Note is not done. there is more work to do.
16:15:52 <matatk> q?
16:16:19 <George> q+
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16:16:33 <CharlesL1> matatk: plans for the future is great and code examples would be super helpful.
16:16:39 <toshiakikoike> present+
16:16:54 <matatk> q?
16:16:59 <matatk> ack George
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16:17:34 <CharlesL1> George: the recommendation for EPUB is a reflow type document which is the most accessible format.
16:18:01 <CharlesL1> ... fixed layout is a problem the WG agreed to publish this as a draft.  this is not finalized.
16:18:33 <CharlesL1> matatk: it does seem more final than that when reading it. but great to know this isn't the case
16:18:49 <janina1> q+
16:19:14 <gautierchomel> q+
16:19:23 <CharlesL1> wendyreid: small error on our part when we published we forgot to put that in the spec when we published.  this is a draft and will be changed.
16:19:37 <matatk> ack janina1
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16:20:26 <matatk> q?
16:20:47 <matatk> ack janina
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16:21:26 <CharlesL1> janina1: knowing there will be problems with FL support for user agents  to try to reflow.  There are some cavets, a techniques document will be very help.  concerned with the title if it stops with accessibility that it will achieve this.  In TR space this is a concern.  suggestion add a : an phrase to retitle this.  setting expectations.
16:21:33 <George> +1
16:21:53 <Lionel_Wolberger> rrsagent, make minutes
16:21:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/24-apa-minutes.html Lionel_Wolberger
16:22:00 <CharlesL1> matatk: : Yes we will get to that specific issue.
16:22:00 <matatk> q?
16:22:00 <CharlesL1> gautierchomel:
16:22:04 <matatk> ack gautierchomel
16:23:03 <CharlesL1> gautierchomel: Limits of FL, it is not reflowable.  aside from that there were different experiments. FL were made where Reading Order (RO) you may not even know you are reading a fixed layout.
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16:24:28 <CharlesL1> ... remaining problem RO path of a FL.  Hachette in France RF inside of FL content with Java Script button to switch.  but realized Screen Reader could access the content of the FL, and announce to the user we thing that the future this reflow can do when using NVDA you can have braille  audio to get the text
16:25:04 <CharlesL1> ... main learning while writing this document the limits of FL could be addressed in the near future. the authoring tools is a concern at the moment.
16:25:22 <matatk> q?
16:25:31 <matatk> subtopic: The spec's support for reading order info
16:25:49 <Hadrien> q+
16:25:55 <CharlesL1> matatk: is there support for RO information.  sounds like yes
16:26:13 <matatk> q?
16:26:17 <matatk> ack Hadrien
16:26:19 <wendyreid> https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-fxl-a11y/#reading-order
16:26:22 <wendyreid> q+
16:26:34 <CharlesL1> Hadrien: spex allows the inclusion of that but it is not well document for FL documents.
16:26:56 <CharlesL1> ... since  no one considers FL books as accessible so they are not including it.
16:27:37 <CharlesL1> ... problem with FL absolute positioning. content is chopped up word by word, letter by letter. which is not helpful, and could not be in the right reading order.
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16:28:33 <CharlesL1> ... also problematic FL also has a concept of Spread of two resources side by side on two pages.  the Reading order is across the spread. from Resource A (left) to Resource B (right) which is a major issue.
16:28:48 <CharlesL1> ... number of FL where there are not text but inside the image.
16:29:43 <CharlesL1> matatk: some cases where the current spec does provide the RO could be useful but some examples where there is no text or text in various resources when in side by side spreads.
16:29:57 <Hadrien> q+
16:30:06 <CharlesL1> janina1: audience are we thinking paper, vs iphone screens etc
16:30:12 <matatk> ack wendyreid
16:31:09 <CharlesL1> wendyreid: I agree happy to go in and bump up the language in that section.  providing additional clarity of RO is perceived which comes from the DOM and spine.
16:31:23 <CharlesL1> ... more clear where RO comes form and how to improve it.
16:32:14 <CharlesL1> ... we do make mention of FL content generally consumers readers readers reading on a variety of devices, from a cell phone to a huge monitor.
16:32:49 <CharlesL1> ... if you are relying on a two page spread on a mobile phone would be next to impossible on these small screens;
16:33:09 <CharlesL1> ... publishers are taking the print version and converting to digital.
16:33:31 <matatk> ack Hadrien
16:34:18 <CharlesL1> Hadrien: FL invented for the IPAD. published in print where the visual design provides information.
16:34:43 <matatk> subtopic: Authoring tool support
16:34:44 <CharlesL1> ... FL is used for Manga and comics.
16:35:01 <George> I have never seen a fixed layout textbook in EPUB.
16:35:34 <wendyreid> q+
16:35:46 <CharlesL1> matatk: aside from the RO issuesfor authoring tools do they support this concept of RO?
16:35:48 <matatk> ack wendyreid
16:36:33 <CharlesL1> wendyreid: authoring tools is tricky depends on who the publisher is. Big publishers have their own proprietary and closed but we can see the output.
16:37:28 <CharlesL1> ... most common is Adobe Indesign.  they are making strides to make it more accessible.  Circular Flow do this for Fixed layout and is very good.
16:37:39 <CharlesL1> ... most smaller publishers are not making FL books.
16:37:46 <matatk> q?
16:37:48 <Hadrien> q+
16:37:54 <CharlesL1> ... there are tool changes out there but are diverse.
16:38:05 <matatk> ack Hadrien
16:38:40 <CharlesL1> Hadrien: publishers for manga and comics but usually dont produce accessible content at all, just images.
16:39:10 <wendyreid> s/Flow/Flo/
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16:39:27 <CharlesL1> matatk: we are asking these questions to drive topic 3 on the title.
16:39:40 <matatk> subtopic: Title of the document
16:41:09 <CharlesL1> matatk: historically documents like this: for titles generally if we find that it is totally possible to make it accessible we would go one route vs. if something isn't possible / gaps we use words like considerations, gaps, etc.
16:41:40 <wendyreid> q+
16:41:47 <matatk> ack wendyreid
16:41:52 <CharlesL1> ... sounds like some areas we could support a11y but other areas where it is a lot more challenging.
16:42:13 <CharlesL1> wendyreid: we took the optimistic approach trying to make FL as accessible as possible.
16:42:42 <AvneeshSingh> q+
16:42:50 <CharlesL1> ... maybe adding "Best Practices" but happy to hear other options.
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16:43:29 <CharlesL1> matatk: we want to avoid someone thinking if they follow the best practices that they are done and fully accessible.
16:43:59 <CharlesL1> ... if there ae limits as long as those are in the document will help.
16:44:24 <CharlesL1> ... even following the best practices is not enough.
16:44:35 <matatk> q?
16:45:03 <matatk> ack AvneeshSingh
16:45:04 <CharlesL1> janina1: techniques and limitations (best practices) could work.
16:45:50 <CharlesL1> AvneeshSingh: title fixed layout best practices and limitations looks good.  how can we meet a11y spec 1.1
16:46:45 <CharlesL1> ... impression we are trying to meet 1.1 it would be nice to restruture in a way here is the a11y challenges and possible solutions.  and those where no solution is clear.
16:47:21 <matatk> q?
16:47:54 <George> q+
16:48:03 <Lionel_Wolberger> scribe+
16:48:13 <matatk> ack George
16:48:20 <Lionel_Wolberger> George: +1 to name change on the document
16:48:46 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... would like to see workarounds or techniques, and opportunities
16:49:03 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... we need a robust solution that meets WCAG Profile AA for comics, manga, children's books
16:49:13 <matatk> q?
16:49:15 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... I see a way forward, but it will require significant work
16:49:44 <Lionel_Wolberger> rrsagent, make minutes
16:49:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/24-apa-minutes.html Lionel_Wolberger
16:49:51 <matatk> topic: Future plans
16:50:11 <matatk> subtopic: Interlinear
16:50:43 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina1: Interlinear is about multi-language support
16:51:09 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... there are many situations where multiple lines of content, in multiple languages, need synchronization
16:51:25 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... not on the word by word level, as languages do not inter-relate in that way
16:51:32 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... but certainly phrase by phrase, and line by line
16:51:49 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... such inter-linear formats are not well supported today neither by ePub nor HTML
16:52:11 <AvneeshSingh> q+
16:52:14 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... I personally rely on TTS to consume such content and it is very challenging to hear a cacaphony of voices and go back and forth
16:52:28 <Lionel_Wolberger> .. also note, full screen braille displays are now on the market
16:52:38 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... which can support multiple lines of content
16:53:02 <Lionel_Wolberger> q+
16:53:27 <Lionel_Wolberger> matatk: One example is learning a language or reading a well known text in a native language
16:53:44 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... in a structural sense, you may have two related tracts of information that require synchronization
16:53:49 <matatk> q?
16:54:02 <matatk> ack AvneeshSingh
16:54:54 <Lionel_Wolberger> AvneeshSingh: We spoke last TPAC on this topic. I support investigating, can these be done in the native specifications?
16:55:07 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... what support do we need from the ePub community?
16:55:32 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina1: We are happy to investigate implementation in HTML as well
16:55:34 <tzviya8> q+ to ask what the specific request is
16:55:54 <Lionel_Wolberger> matatk: We in APA are happy to pursue this in other WGs as well
16:56:08 <matatk> ack Lionel_Wolberger
16:56:13 <matatk> scribe+
16:56:32 <matatk> Lionel_Wolberger: I think interlinear is often needed for canonical texts - prayer books; cultures' holy texts; wide interest.
16:56:39 <matatk> q?
16:56:44 <matatk> ack tzviya8
16:56:55 <matatk> ack tzviya
16:56:55 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask what the specific request is
16:57:18 <Lionel_Wolberger> tzviya8: +1 to the importance. Not clear what is missing. Lack of support on ePub reading devices?
16:57:35 <wendyreid> q+
16:58:27 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger: Tzviya is correct that visual coordination of inter-linear content is well understood
16:58:41 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... and sighted people consume the content as coordinated
16:58:49 <CharlesL1> q+
16:58:52 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... APA's interest is that this coordination is not expressed on a semantic level
16:58:56 <matatk> q?
16:59:05 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... there is no indication for the AT to coordinate the two lines
16:59:22 <George> I have a meeting I must go to.
16:59:22 <Lionel_Wolberger> tzviya8: I want to warn against over thinking this
16:59:33 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... even visually, the association is often merely consecutive
17:00:05 <matatk> ack wendyreid
17:00:29 <Lionel_Wolberger> wendyreid: Regarding crossing the boundary of the spread, what is known as 'over the fold'
17:00:55 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... the next phase of ePub work will have a fragment-based focus rather than resource-based
17:01:18 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... currently we have some cases of fragment-based functionality (via Smile for example)
17:01:44 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... Note, we do not tell publishers how to author their content.
17:02:00 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... we edge into this case regarding accessibility
17:02:05 <matatk> q?
17:02:13 <matatk> ack CharlesL1
17:02:14 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... inter-linear coordination as discussed here seems doable with HTML + CSS
17:02:17 <matatk> ack CharlesL
17:03:05 <Lionel_Wolberger> CharlesL1: Current UX/UI conventions regarding text messaging seems to be a similar coordination challenge as is being raised here
17:03:15 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... I suggest we look to that for ideas and/or inspiration
17:03:22 <wendyreid> q+
17:03:25 <Lionel_Wolberger> rrsagent, make minutes
17:03:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/24-apa-minutes.html Lionel_Wolberger
17:03:55 <matatk> subtopic: Annotations
17:04:33 <Lionel_Wolberger> wendyreid: (1) Annotations.
17:04:43 <matatk> s/subtopic: Annotations/subtopic: Annotations & Locators/
17:04:46 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
17:04:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/24-apa-minutes.html matatk
17:04:54 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... (2) Locators.
17:05:08 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... (3) Fixed layout, and how to make fixed layout reflow
17:05:37 <Lionel_Wolberger> matatk: We understand ARIA is looking into annotations
17:06:18 <matatk> q?
17:06:27 <wendyreid> ack me
17:06:46 <AvneeshSingh> q+
17:06:52 <matatk> q?
17:06:56 <matatk> ack AvneeshSingh
17:06:57 <Lionel_Wolberger> matatk: Other considerations, how rich are the annotations? As Wendy indicated, annotations can be quite complex
17:07:58 <Lionel_Wolberger> AvneeshSingh: AT coordination is difficult because determining reading position is itself very difficult
17:08:04 <wendyreid> +1 Avneesh
17:08:38 <wendyreid> Lionel_Wolberger: I use an epub reader on my iphone, I find footnotes work well
17:08:52 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: The issue is more with the virtual buffer with screen readers
17:08:54 <wendyreid> scribe+
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17:09:20 <wendyreid> janina: There are challenges with cross-platforms, different technologies
17:09:24 <wendyreid> ... different contexts
17:09:31 <matatk> q+
17:09:34 <wendyreid> ... on an airplane versus giving a lecture
17:09:35 <Lionel_Wolberger> q+
17:10:00 <wendyreid> Lionel_Wolberger: I found in one client, footnotes are well-implemented with footnotes
17:10:18 <Lionel_Wolberger> wendyreid: Differentiating footnoates and annotations
17:10:40 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... Footnotes, in old ePub and new frameworks, we have reasonable support for footnotes
17:10:51 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... publishers do not consistently use those frameworks
17:11:30 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... but footnotes are so well established, with durable conventions for where they are located
17:11:31 <matatk> q?
17:11:35 <duga> q+
17:11:40 <matatk> ack me
17:11:45 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... annotations are seperate from the text in a wholly different way
17:11:52 <Lionel_Wolberger> s/seperate/separate
17:12:00 <Lionel_Wolberger> ack Lionel_Wolberger
17:12:39 <Lionel_Wolberger> matatk: Some factors that bear consideration, virtual cursor position, focus order, landmarks
17:12:55 <matatk> q?
17:13:00 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... the latter (landmarks) are surprisingly well supported by screen readers (though not much outside the realm of SRs)
17:13:08 <matatk> q+ janina
17:13:20 <matatk> ack duga
17:13:42 <Lionel_Wolberger> duga: Annotations is not currently in scope of ePub
17:13:46 <wendyreid> q+
17:14:12 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... ePub is agnostic to annotations. I want to emphasize, annotations are an added on feature that, currently, ePub has nothing to say about them
17:14:22 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... with the exception of (perhaps) export
17:14:48 <Lionel_Wolberger> matatk: Is there consensus that ePub will be addressing annotations in future (its semantics)?
17:15:03 <Lionel_Wolberger> duga: IMHO we intend to explore export only
17:15:10 <matatk> ack janina1
17:15:12 <matatk> ack janina
17:15:14 <matatk> ack wendyreid
17:15:41 <Lionel_Wolberger> wendyreid: Yesterday 23 Sept we had an initial exploratory conversation re: annotations (after not addressing them for a while)
17:16:05 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... We see wide variation in the reading systems and the affordances provided by the reading systems
17:16:49 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... perhaps we need to spell out further the desired experience(s): here are the features, here is how we would like it to work
17:17:09 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... many reading systems are working on accessibility, and position is a real challenge
17:17:36 <matatk> q?
17:17:50 <matatk> subtopic: "Expert handlers"
17:17:56 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... we are in a contradictory position where (a) knowing the screen reader cursor would be extremely helpful but (b) to preserve the privacy of the end-user we do not want to know screen reader position
17:18:20 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
17:18:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/24-apa-minutes.html matatk
17:18:40 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina1: Expert handlers are experienced, e.g. in a collaborative document
17:21:27 <Lionel_Wolberger> matatk: Expert handlers might be implemented on the user's side by all kinds of tools
17:21:43 <Lionel_Wolberger> wendyreid: Checking for understanding: Is the PDF renderer in the browser an example?
17:22:22 <Lionel_Wolberger> matatk: MathML, MusicML are rendered in the browser
17:22:44 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... some people want extra program, software or apps to provide a more detailed and interactive rendering of the content
17:23:05 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... 'expert handler' is our term for this type of interaction
17:23:40 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina1: We suspect that ePubs particularly in the educational context will have significant use cases based on these handlers
17:23:41 <AvneeshSingh> q+
17:24:00 <matatk> ack AvneeshSingh
17:24:00 <Lionel_Wolberger> q+
17:24:18 <Lionel_Wolberger> AvneeshSingh: yesterday ePub discussed an educational use case in depth
17:24:51 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... we tentatively concluded that the educational context needs its own approaches here, as they are generally in a Learning Management System
17:25:04 <matatk> ack Lionel_Wolberger
17:25:30 <matatk> Lionel_Wolberger: If ePub has its spec at source, and can't be responsible downstream, why does APA think ePub should be supporting this?
17:25:47 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina1: ePub content will host specialized formats that will never be rendered well by deafult
17:25:49 <matatk> q+
17:26:31 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... mechanisms to handoff back and forth will be helpful
17:26:46 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... in music textbooks there will be examples in the text
17:26:52 <duga> q+
17:27:15 <duga> q-
17:27:57 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger: The word 'embedded' helped me in Janina's response
17:28:14 <matatk> ack me
17:28:16 <matatk> q?
17:28:28 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... ePub may have a method to mark <start> and <end> of an embedded section that may benefit from an expert handler
17:28:34 <Lionel_Wolberger> wendyreid: Thank you, APA!
17:28:36 <Lionel_Wolberger> +1
17:29:00 <Lionel_Wolberger> rrsagent, make minutes
17:29:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/24-apa-minutes.html Lionel_Wolberger
17:29:35 <Lionel_Wolberger> Hadrien: on the Web, I wouldn't be surprised if education platforms end up with specialized viewers/handles as Web apps rather than external expert handlers
17:29:40 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... for example, IIIF viewers feel like one of these expert handlers
17:29:47 <Lionel_Wolberger> rrsagent, make minutes
17:29:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/24-apa-minutes.html Lionel_Wolberger
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20:51:05 <matatk> topic: Accessibility Maturity Model TF & Equity CG
20:51:10 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
20:51:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/24-apa-minutes.html matatk
20:51:17 <CharlesL> present+
20:51:21 <matatk> present+
20:52:44 <PaulG> present+
20:53:03 <matatk> present+
20:53:28 <Roy> present+
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21:00:25 <matatk> present+
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21:00:44 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
21:00:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/24-apa-minutes.html matatk
21:00:51 <janina1> present+
21:00:55 <Angela> present+
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21:01:01 <Sheri_B-H> present+
21:01:13 <jkline> present+
21:01:13 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger has joined #APA
21:01:18 <Lionel_Wolberger> present+
21:01:30 <Lionel_Wolberger> scribe+
21:01:49 <Fazio> present+
21:01:52 <jkline> just fyi...IRC drops me frequently
21:02:13 <Lionel_Wolberger> agenda?
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21:02:30 <Sheri_B-H> q+
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21:06:43 <Sheri_B-H> q-
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21:10:01 <jaunita_george4> Present+
21:11:03 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, who is here?
21:11:03 <Zakim> Present: matatk, PaulG, Roy, iali, gautierchomel, Dr_Keith, Fredrik, mike_beganyi, Angela, joncohn, present, MasakazuKitahara, AvneeshSingh, shiestyle, wendyreid, mgarrish, George,
21:11:07 <Zakim> ... duga, CharlesL, ikkwong, jkamata, gpellegrino, Hadrien, hiroki_endo, toshiakikoike, tzviya, Daihei, JenStrickland, janina, Sheri_B-H, jkline, Lionel_Wolberger, Fazio,
21:11:07 <Zakim> ... jaunita_george
21:11:07 <Zakim> On IRC I see jaunita_george4, JXZ, ikkwong, Lionel_Wolberger, jkline, Sheri_B-H, Angela, JenStrickland2, Fazio, PaulG, nigel, matatk, Roy, janina1, CharlesL, wendyreid,
21:11:11 <Zakim> ... Francis_Storr, kirkwood, jamesn, tzviya8, spectranaut_, RRSAgent, jcraig, anssik, Zakim, gb, agendabot, cwilso, tink, slightlyoff, Rachael, ada
21:11:46 <matatk> subtopic: Is the APA AMM ready for publication? Why?
21:12:14 <Lionel_Wolberger> rrsagent, make minutes
21:12:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/24-apa-minutes.html Lionel_Wolberger
21:12:42 <Lionel_Wolberger> Fazio: We have worked on this for 4 years and socialized it widely. over 200 issues have been handled in github.
21:12:45 <janina1> q+
21:12:49 <jkline> Jennifer, hi! Glad you find the book useful!!
21:14:48 <Sheri_B-H> I would add to Lionel's minutes that we've tested it with several large organizations (without naming names)
21:14:48 <matatk> q?
21:15:00 <matatk> ack janina1
21:15:03 <matatk> ack janina
21:15:09 <Lionel_Wolberger> Sheri_B-H: And the MM has been tested by serveral large organizations
21:15:28 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina1: APA Chairs advocate for moving forward with this document
21:15:28 <jkamata> jkamata has joined #apa
21:15:55 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... one of the organizations that tested it, is attending this meeting
21:16:10 <Fazio> Q+
21:16:23 <Lionel_Wolberger> CharlesL: At Vancouver TPAC Bennetech learned about the maturity model
21:16:37 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... decided to both join the MM Task Force and implement this model
21:16:46 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... this was accepted as an official corporate OKR
21:17:11 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... Bennetech is also exploring a consulting service to leverage this model to assist other organizations
21:17:31 <matatk> q?
21:17:32 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina1: Bennetech's statement illustrates how this MM fills a niche
21:17:41 <bkardell_> bkardell_ has joined #apa
21:17:47 <Sheri_B-H> q+
21:17:51 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... it provides a method to both take a 'snapshot' of accessibility status and enable tracking progress over time
21:17:55 <matatk> ack Fazio
21:17:57 <Lionel_Wolberger> ack Fazio
21:17:59 <chaals> chaals has joined #apa
21:18:18 <Sheri_B-H> q-
21:18:22 <Sheri_B-H> (david covered my comment)
21:18:29 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
21:18:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/24-apa-minutes.html chaals
21:18:44 <Lionel_Wolberger> Fazio: Note, there are other maturity models in the aaccessibility space.
21:19:14 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... a natural outgrowth of using a MM is an opportunity to sell and provision tools needed to meet needs and/or gaps revealed in the process of engaging with the MM
21:19:28 <matatk> q?
21:19:41 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... a major differentiation is that the W3C's MM has no such 'upside' from MM-related selling of services
21:20:24 <matatk> q?
21:20:37 <matatk> subtopic: Is the APA AMM NOT ready for publication? Why?
21:20:37 <janina1> q+
21:20:41 <chaals> present+ chaals
21:20:59 <matatk> ack janina
21:21:05 <Sheri_B-H> q+
21:21:12 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina1: It's been a while since we had a thorough and wide review from the public
21:21:47 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... I concur that we have had engagement with the MM. These tend to be detailed oriented, by insiders with concern with "the weeds"
21:21:55 <CharlesL> q+
21:22:11 <matatk> ack Sheri_B-H
21:22:12 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... I feel there is another kind of socialization and wide review that I feel, from experience, we need prior to recommending this for publication
21:22:52 <Lionel_Wolberger> Sheri_B-H: We foresaw in MM the need for both (a) a document and (b) an associated HTML tool to facilitate its use
21:23:10 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... such a tool would be another differentiator from all the other MM's out there
21:23:17 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... this tool would not host the data
21:23:34 <Fazio> q+
21:24:47 <matatk> ack CharlesL
21:24:49 <Lionel_Wolberger> ack CharlesL
21:25:20 <Lionel_Wolberger> CharlesL: Since last MM updated working draft, we did not see many github issues,
21:25:29 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... but I found glaring errors
21:25:36 <chaals> q+ to suggest building and maintaining serious reporting tools isn't a good thing to do in a W3C WG, but publishing something you have a way to maintain is a good thing to do.
21:25:46 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... this made me concerned that people have not tried the tool.
21:26:02 <matatk> s/but I found glaring errors/but I found glaring errors in the spreadsheet (not calculating things correctly, for example)/
21:26:09 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
21:26:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/24-apa-minutes.html matatk
21:26:17 <matatk> q?
21:26:34 <matatk> ack Fazio
21:28:09 <Lionel_Wolberger> Fazio: I advocate going one step at a time. First, publish the document. Then finetune the tool
21:28:29 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... the latter tool also requires tackling the scoring issues that have arisen
21:28:43 <chaals> ack me
21:28:43 <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to suggest building and maintaining serious reporting tools isn't a good thing to do in a W3C WG, but publishing something you have a way to maintain is a good
21:28:45 <matatk> ack chaals
21:28:46 <Zakim> ... thing to do.
21:29:24 <Lionel_Wolberger> chaals: +1 to David. If there are currently no more comments, go ahead and publish
21:29:38 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... you intend to maintain it, and will receive more feedback prior to publication
21:30:00 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... IMHO a Working Group is not a great place to develop a tool
21:30:11 <Sheri_B-H> Just to make it clear - I don't think the lack of a tool is a sufficient reason to hold it up.  But some might
21:30:24 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... there is an advantage to a non-WG entity, such as a third party, making the tool
21:30:49 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... a WG making the tool has built-in inefficiencies, as the WG has a world view that may end up getting baked into the tool
21:31:07 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... don't try too hard for the WG to make the definitive tool
21:31:20 <Lionel_Wolberger> Fazio: We were thinking of making a template
21:31:39 <Lionel_Wolberger> chaals: Even a template can benefit if created by a grup, seperate from the WG
21:31:46 <matatk> q?
21:31:46 <Lionel_Wolberger> s/seperate/separate
21:32:11 <ikkwong> ikkwong has joined #apa
21:32:58 <matatk> Latest Editor's Draft: https://w3c.github.io/maturity-model/ (sorry for not sending before!)
21:33:09 <Lionel_Wolberger> rrsagent, draft minutes
21:33:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/24-apa-minutes.html Lionel_Wolberger
21:33:16 <matatk> q?
21:34:47 <matatk> subtopic: Are our approaches sufficiently coordinated? How do we do better?
21:37:51 <Lionel_Wolberger> JenStrickland2: Equity CG was started to help define Equity at W3C
21:38:06 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... We looked at Equity, Sustainable Web, in the context of other factors like Privacy
21:38:31 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... the topic of having a Maturity Model arose as we worked on this
21:39:02 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... We prioritize an approach that does NOT change the Accessibility Maturity Model
21:39:16 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... and enforced this approach, as this led us to take some suggested changes to the MM
21:39:48 <Lionel_Wolberger> matatk: Recap: Equity started building on this work, filed some tickets for AMM (accessibility maturity model)
21:40:05 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... then found we at Equity were using an out-of-date version of the AMM
21:40:21 <matatk> q+
21:42:00 <matatk> ack me
21:42:35 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger: Discussion continues on the EMM (Equity Maturity Model), AMM (Accessibility Maturity Model) and their relationship(s)
21:43:00 <Lionel_Wolberger> JenStrickland2: EMM, when it cites AMM, points to AMM and does not seek to alter it
21:43:18 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... EMM also curates pointers to other external groups such as Privacy
21:43:22 <Fazio> q+
21:43:27 <matatk> q+
21:44:09 <matatk> ack Fazio
21:44:32 <Lionel_Wolberger> FazioL: AMM supports EMM's work
21:44:38 <Sheri_B-H> q+
21:44:53 <JenStrickland2> q+
21:44:55 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... AMM began as a CG, where it was honed and narrowed down
21:46:13 <matatk> q?
21:46:31 <chaals> ack ma
21:48:16 <Fazio> this is why we made it extensible
21:48:47 <Lionel_Wolberger> JenStrickland2: Brings a metaphor of a pie, composed of different slices of different pies: a slice of cherry pie, a slice of peach pie, and so on
21:48:58 <Lionel_Wolberger> rrsagent, make minutes
21:48:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/24-apa-minutes.html Lionel_Wolberger
21:49:05 <matatk> q?
21:49:07 <Fazio> and Fazio likes it
21:49:14 <Fazio> the mixed pie
21:49:34 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... this 'pie' is composed of internationalization, sustainable web, accessibility, privacy
21:50:41 <matatk> ack Sheri_B-H
21:51:02 <Lionel_Wolberger> Sheri_B-H: Expands on the history and adds some details
21:51:18 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... MM began as a CG in AGWG
21:51:36 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... then moved over to APA
21:51:52 <matatk> +1 to Sheri_B-H re keeping it accessible (after getting it accessible)
21:52:09 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... making a distinction between WCAG, about 'getting something accessible' and MM, 'keeping it accessible'
21:52:12 <chaals> scribe: chaals
21:52:35 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
21:52:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/24-apa-minutes.html matatk
21:52:46 <matatk> q?
21:52:53 <matatk> ack JenStrickland
21:52:56 <chaals> Jen: Jo...
21:53:07 <chaals> s/Jen: Jo...//
21:53:40 <matatk> subtopic: Is the Equity CG a snapshot of APA AMM? At what point? How maintaining synchronization?
21:54:04 <chaals> s/Equity CG/Equity CGs document/
21:54:37 <chaals> matatk: Is the EquityCG's document a snapshot of what we produce, if so, from when is it taken, and how do you keep it synchornised?
21:54:54 <chaals> JenStrickland2: We copied the content as of August 5 2024 into a Googledoc.
21:55:07 <chaals> matatk: I am still trying to understand where to get a slice of pie, and
21:55:28 <CharlesL> q+
21:55:40 <chaals> ... you are building on the work the other groups are doing, not changing that downstream, so what is the need to start with a snapshot?
21:55:55 <Sheri_B-H> q+
21:56:13 <chaals> JenStrickland2: As a proof of concept to work on something. We're not worried about having to synchronise - we can deal with updates, and we are only building a draft idea at this stage.
21:56:50 <chaals> ... We need something more solid to work with at some point, so starting with the structure of the AMM and then adding some things like a statement of principles is a way for us to work on what we are trying to achieve.
21:56:58 <matatk> ack CharlesL
21:57:39 <Fazio> q+
21:57:40 <chaals> CharlesL: The most recent published draft was 18 June, did you take Editors' draft on August, or take the latest published version from TR (which is actually the content we had as of June)
21:57:45 <matatk> q+ to ask about synchronization (extent to which it may be needed)?
21:57:50 <matatk> q?
21:57:56 <chaals> JenStrickland2: The /TR Working Draft, content is dated June 18
21:57:57 <matatk> ack Sheri_B-H
21:57:58 <Roy> https://www.w3.org/TR/2024/DNOTE-maturity-model-20240618/
21:58:46 <chaals> Sheri_B-H: If we put together a list of Changes, when we republish, then we can hand those off to other groups.
21:59:03 <JenStrickland2> q+
21:59:10 <chaals> chaals: [Producing a clear list of changes from draft to draft is IMHO something that everyone should ALWAYS do ...]
21:59:27 <Lionel_Wolberger> q+
21:59:31 <chaals> s/Changes, when/proposed changes before/
21:59:33 <CharlesL> q+
21:59:34 <matatk> +1 to chaals re changes lists; always helpful!
21:59:35 <matatk> q?
21:59:46 <matatk> ack Fazio
22:00:05 <matatk> q-
22:00:07 <matatk> q?
22:00:16 <chaals> Fazio: Thank you for the explanation - I think you've explained to us what we needed to understand so we can meet your expectations and needs from us.
22:00:27 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
22:00:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/24-apa-minutes.html matatk
22:00:35 <Roy> RRSAgent, make minutes
22:00:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/24-apa-minutes.html Roy
22:00:50 <matatk> q?
22:01:19 <matatk> ack JenStrickland
22:01:27 <chaals> ... This is like copy-editing - you can take our structure and see how well that works for what you are doing, and I think that's a pretty good way to appoarch the development. We can look forward to a future where it's easy to collaborate and see where we both go when we are both further along our development processes.
22:02:50 <chaals> JenStrickland2: Are people familiar with "RACI (Responsible, Accountable, Consulted, Informed)? Could be useful for the AMM as parent to have a RACI chart, so you know who is waiting to hear about changes proposed, people you might consult before you agree a change, ... Equity CG would want to be informed about changes
22:03:03 <chaals> Fazio: We have github repo that lets you do that.
22:03:34 <matatk> q+ janina
22:03:38 <matatk> q+
22:03:42 <chaals> ack li
22:03:48 <chaals> Lionel_Wolberger
22:04:36 <chaals> s/Lionel_Wolberger/Lionel_Wolberger: W3C standards have always depended on each other. This is something we know how to do around here. Not sure there is a special case here./
22:04:43 <chaals> JenStrickland2: We are trying to do that
22:04:58 <matatk> q?
22:05:00 <chaals> Sheri_B-H: We are experiencing some growing pains, as we are learning the ropes in practice.
22:05:00 <Fazio> +1 to growing pains
22:05:28 <chaals> Lionel_Wolberger: There are differences between technical standards for making something, and processes for maintaining a status in an organisation...
22:06:06 <chaals> ... Equity wants to know when AMM changes, are there parallels in other groups that we see working on that pattern?
22:06:36 <matatk> ack CharlesL
22:06:47 <chaals> CharlesL: I don't think we have a change log...
22:06:55 <chaals> janina1: we have github
22:07:31 <Roy> History of publication: https://www.w3.org/standards/history/maturity-model/
22:07:32 <chaals> CharlesL: Not a human-friendly one that people can easily read. I think we should have a human-readable changelog  (not just github record of all commits)
22:07:39 <matatk> q?
22:07:45 <matatk> ack janina
22:07:49 <chaals> ... think we should also have an appendix of people relying on / using the specification.
22:08:01 <matatk> +1 again to the idea of nice change logs :-)
22:08:11 <Sheri_B-H> human-friendly changelog is with a review with Equity and other teams that are relying on it was what I was proposing
22:08:31 <matatk> +1 Sheri_B-H
22:08:44 <chaals> janina: There are people who are happy in github, and people who aren't, in our community. I suggest the same exists in relation to Google Docs. We haven't worked out how to coordinate those two worlds. And not just for this specific example case.
22:08:50 <Sheri_B-H> it== the accessibility maturity model
22:09:21 <chaals> ... There are things we can do that help like writing commit messages that actually explain what is changed, instead of just "update to doc".
22:09:37 <matatk> q?
22:09:45 <chaals> ... Not sure how to characterise doing this from Google Docs.
22:09:58 <chaals> qq+ to say tools, ....
22:10:11 <chaals> ... Github records who said what and where changes came from.
22:10:31 <chaals> ... we should be able to rely on tooling to help, but it takes some effort on top to make it work well.
22:12:06 <chaals> chaals: tooling is always a compromise. There are differences and tradeoffs that have to be made, but that is a constant in the life of a group.
22:12:12 <matatk> ack ma
22:12:15 <chaals> ack ch
22:12:15 <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to react to janina to say tools, ....
22:12:35 <chaals> matatk: I don't want to impose stuff about commit messages on the group but there are simple things we could do.
22:14:25 <chaals> ... I wanted to mention the RACI chart. I read this as "please coordinate" and I think we should make our processes for doing that fulfil what Jen was asking for. There are 3 pathways...
22:14:31 <chaals> ... 1. Friendly changelogs
22:14:42 <chaals> ... 2. Have a human liaison, which we do.
22:15:02 <chaals> ... 3. A horizontal review process.
22:15:34 <matatk> ack me
22:15:35 <matatk> q?
22:15:42 <chaals> ... These give us several ways to make sure the communication that happens, and I hope it is working. We can also talk more if something isn't working, ubt I am optimistic that we can manage this successfully given our current approach.
22:15:47 <JenStrickland2> q+
22:15:55 <matatk> ack JenStrickland2
22:16:23 <CharlesL> q+
22:17:03 <matatk> ack JenStrickland
22:17:28 <chaals> JenStrickland: regarding Equity CG's model, we are trying to sketch a proof of concept at this stage. Would be good to get the CG working from a similar perspective. We're small, new, and we don't manage to be in all the meetings together, so i might just make a rough sketch as a prototype to see if that helps us. We don't yet need to produce a
22:17:29 <chaals> full-blown deliverable.
22:17:31 <matatk> ack CharlesL
22:17:58 <chaals> charrrlesL: You're working in google docs. Are you planning to write something that we can point to like a CG report?
22:18:08 <chaals> JenStrickland: We would like to do that.
22:18:14 <matatk> q?
22:18:23 <Roy> CG report requires -> https://www.w3.org/community/reports/reqs/
22:18:28 <chaals> ... when we get to the point where we are ready to publish stuff.
22:19:07 <Sheri_B-H> slight technical correction - you can point to a google doc (or sheet) from the document in GitHub, but it has to be a w3C google doc/sheet, it can't be owned by someone else
22:19:14 <matatk> subtopic: Has Equity (others) discovered an incompatibility to the APA AMM that requires resolution?
22:20:17 <chaals> JenStrickland: Not really yet, beyond an editorial issue that got resolved.
22:20:36 <matatk> q?
22:21:10 <chaals> matatk: We see no known showstoppers, then...?
22:22:20 <Roy> RRSAgent, make minutes
22:22:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/24-apa-minutes.html Roy
22:23:19 <chaals> matatk: Thank you for this session, I think it has been helpful and we understand each other better, which is good news. Next steps, APA looks at changelogs, between APA and Equity CG we have a liaison, and it seems to be working, and we understand that they snapshot you are working on is fine for your current purposes, and we know how to talk to
22:23:19 <chaals> each other any time there is something we need to talk about.
22:23:55 <chaals> s/scribe: chaals/scribe+ chaals/
22:25:07 <chaals> [BREAK]
22:25:21 <Roy> RRSAgent, make minutes
22:25:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/24-apa-minutes.html Roy
22:44:38 <janina1> janina1 has joined #apa
22:47:51 <Roy> Roy has joined #apa
22:48:55 <JenStrickland2> JenStrickland2 has left #apa
23:24:42 <Roy> Roy has joined #apa
23:30:24 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger has joined #APA
23:31:48 <Roy> RRSAgent, make minutes
23:31:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/24-apa-minutes.html Roy
23:32:20 <Roy> Topic: APA recharter
23:34:54 <Roy> APA charter -> https://www.w3.org/2023/07/apa-wg-charter
23:35:50 <Lionel_Wolberger> Roy: Need to update completion dates
23:35:55 <Lionel_Wolberger> scribe+
23:35:57 <Lionel_Wolberger> Roy: Need to update completion dates
23:36:06 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina1: and explain why they are delayed
23:44:10 <CharlesL> CharlesL has joined #APA
23:44:45 <Roy> scribe+
23:44:54 <Roy> janina1: I am good with mission section
23:46:10 <Roy> ... potential F2F is good
23:47:42 <Roy> Roy: I will update group publication status page. At: https://www.w3.org/WAI/about/groups/apawg/deliverables/
23:55:25 <Roy> Roy: implementation reports -> https://w3c.github.io/adapt/symbols/reports/
23:56:18 <Roy> ... timeline should be updated