15:54:24 RRSAgent has joined #me 15:54:28 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-me-irc 15:54:52 cpn7 has joined #me 15:55:07 cpn7 has left #me 15:55:13 Zakim has joined #me 15:55:25 Meeting: MEIG TPAC Meeting 15:56:04 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/media-and-entertainment/issues/109 15:58:04 nigel has joined #me 15:59:17 kaz has joined #me 15:59:42 kaz has joined #me 16:00:03 zakim, who is on the call? 16:00:03 Present: (no one) 16:00:15 present+ Kaz_Ashimura 16:00:23 present+ Nigel_Megitt 16:00:29 rrsagent, make log public 16:00:37 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:00:38 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-me-minutes.html kaz 16:00:49 cpn has joined #me 16:00:49 ovf has joined #me 16:00:49 englishm has joined #me 16:01:52 gendler has joined #me 16:01:52 Wolfgang has joined #me 16:01:52 cpn has joined #me 16:01:52 ovf has joined #me 16:01:52 englishm has joined #me 16:03:12 Tomo has joined #me 16:03:12 gendler has joined #me 16:03:12 Wolfgang has joined #me 16:03:12 cpn has joined #me 16:03:12 ovf has joined #me 16:03:12 englishm has joined #me 16:03:46 agenda: https://github.com/w3c/media-and-entertainment/issues/109 16:03:54 JohnRiv has joined #me 16:04:15 Tomo has joined #me 16:04:15 gendler has joined #me 16:04:15 Wolfgang has joined #me 16:04:15 cpn has joined #me 16:04:15 ovf has joined #me 16:04:15 englishm has joined #me 16:04:15 kuriyama3 has joined #me 16:04:31 present+ Francois_Daoust 16:04:56 present+ John_Riviello 16:05:13 scribe+ nigel 16:05:20 Ohmata has joined #me 16:05:20 markafoltz has joined #me 16:05:20 kazho has joined #me 16:05:20 kuriyama3 has joined #me 16:05:20 Tomo has joined #me 16:05:20 gendler has joined #me 16:05:20 Wolfgang has joined #me 16:05:20 cpn has joined #me 16:05:20 ovf has joined #me 16:05:20 englishm has joined #me 16:05:24 scribe+ tidoust 16:05:42 Topic: M&E IG Introduction 16:06:09 cpn: Igarashi-san, Chris Lorenzo and myself co-chair the IG. Kaz is our staff contact. 16:06:29 ... The role of this group is to provide a forum for media related discussions. 16:06:41 Niko has joined #me 16:06:41 Igarashi has joined #me 16:06:41 Ohmata has joined #me 16:06:41 markafoltz has joined #me 16:06:41 kazho has joined #me 16:06:41 kuriyama3 has joined #me 16:06:41 Tomo has joined #me 16:06:41 gendler has joined #me 16:06:41 Wolfgang has joined #me 16:06:41 cpn has joined #me 16:06:41 ovf has joined #me 16:06:41 englishm has joined #me 16:06:53 ... We maintain relationships with other groups within W3C and other organizations to help bring requirements from outside of W3C within W3C. 16:07:06 ... So that they can be used as input to Working Group discussions.* 16:07:19 ... Looking at the entire spectrum from media inception to rendering. 16:07:40 i|The role of|-> https://www.w3.org/2023/11/meig-charter-2023.html MEIG Charter| 16:07:52 osamu has joined #me 16:07:52 Niko has joined #me 16:07:52 Igarashi has joined #me 16:07:52 Ohmata has joined #me 16:07:52 markafoltz has joined #me 16:07:52 kazho has joined #me 16:07:52 kuriyama3 has joined #me 16:07:52 Tomo has joined #me 16:07:52 gendler has joined #me 16:07:52 Wolfgang has joined #me 16:07:52 cpn has joined #me 16:07:52 ovf has joined #me 16:07:52 englishm has joined #me 16:07:57 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:07:58 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-me-minutes.html kaz 16:08:04 okin has joined #me 16:08:04 ... The group was at the inception of what became Media Source Extensions and Ecnrypted Media Extensions. 16:08:09 present+ Niko Färber 16:08:16 ... Ongoing revisions of these specs are now happening. 16:08:26 ... The web platform is much more powerful regarding media. 16:09:14 ... We look at use cases, requirements and gaps to feed into existing working groups. When it's something new, we can look into creating a community group to incubate a solution before it transitions to a working group. 16:09:30 okin has joined #me 16:09:30 osamu has joined #me 16:09:30 Niko has joined #me 16:09:30 Igarashi has joined #me 16:09:30 Ohmata has joined #me 16:09:30 markafoltz has joined #me 16:09:30 kazho has joined #me 16:09:30 kuriyama3 has joined #me 16:09:30 Tomo has joined #me 16:09:30 gendler has joined #me 16:09:30 Wolfgang has joined #me 16:09:30 cpn has joined #me 16:09:30 ovf has joined #me 16:09:30 englishm has joined #me 16:10:08 cpn: [presenting a slide with links to M&E IG resources] 16:10:43 hiroki_endo5 has joined #me 16:10:43 okin has joined #me 16:10:43 osamu has joined #me 16:10:43 Niko has joined #me 16:10:43 Igarashi has joined #me 16:10:43 Ohmata has joined #me 16:10:43 markafoltz has joined #me 16:10:43 kazho has joined #me 16:10:43 kuriyama3 has joined #me 16:10:43 Tomo has joined #me 16:10:43 gendler has joined #me 16:10:43 Wolfgang has joined #me 16:10:43 cpn has joined #me 16:10:43 ovf has joined #me 16:10:43 englishm has joined #me 16:11:22 cpn: 3 sessions today, this morning, then joint session with Timed Text, and then again this afternoon. 16:11:41 ... [going through the agenda of the morning session] 16:12:27 shiestyle has left #me 16:13:26 louay has joined #me 16:14:50 Topic: Next Generation Audio codec API proposal 16:15:19 Presenter: Bernd Czelhan 16:15:24 Bernd: Together with Chris from BBC and colleagues from Fraunhofer, we've been working on a proposal for next generation audio codec API. 16:15:49 ... Next generation audio experiences are defined in an EBU factsheet. 16:16:05 ... The definition is a little abstract but has some key points. 16:16:32 slideset: https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/images/0/0b/W3C_NGA_Interface_no_video.pdf 16:17:35 scribe+ cpn 16:17:43 ... The demo shows different mixes, switches between different language commentaries, possibility to change the prominence of the dialogues. 16:18:02 ... And you can change the presets. 16:19:02 ken has joined #me 16:19:12 Bernd: There are differences with traditional audio codecs. Main difference is the use of metadata embedded, that allow the user to select a prefered contenxt version. It's also to adjust the gain/prominence of certain components. 16:19:23 ... It's also possible to adjust the position of certain audio components. 16:19:39 ... We need a dedicated interface to accept these knobs. 16:20:07 ... From a use case perspective, you could imagine a Home Team and an Away Team presets. 16:21:08 ... Second use case is prominent of audio objects. Very useful to follow a video with audio in a foreign language when the actor can be hard to understand for non-native speakers. 16:21:22 Bernd: Third use case is ? 16:21:59 Bernd: TFourth use case is position interactivity, e.g., if you are visually impaired. 16:22:05 AramZS has joined #me 16:22:06 markafoltz has joined #me 16:22:36 Bernd: Last use case is controlling multiple components at the same time. For example, the breaking noise of a car may be very important for story telling. 16:23:12 Bernf: I will sketch a possible NGA API, that could perhaps be incubated in a Community Group. 16:23:20 s/Bernf/Bernd 16:23:25 s/Third use case is ?/Third use case is selecting among a set of audio objects, components representing different content languages 16:23:39 s/TFourth/The fourth/ 16:23:45 Bernd: Some goals include covering the full potential of NGA and be codec agnostic. 16:23:53 q? 16:23:57 ... Thank you for the integration. 16:24:04 q+ 16:24:11 ack markafoltz 16:24:33 markafoltz: Do what extent are the use cases specifc to pre-recorded content? 16:24:54 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:24:56 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-me-minutes.html kaz 16:25:03 Bernd: metadata can be created for live as well as pre-recorded content. 16:25:03 Bernd: Someone needs to take care of creating the metadata, but the demo I showed was a live show. 16:25:10 q+ to ask what are the API requirements 16:25:19 markafoltz: To what extent do we expect that the metadata already exists or could be synthesized? 16:25:24 chair: ChrisN, Igarashi 16:25:31 Bernd: Assumption so far is that metadata already exists. 16:25:34 scribe+ Wolfgang 16:26:34 Bernd: Our idea is to make NGA available in the Web context. 16:26:49 Nigel: Can you be more specific about the metadata being exposed? 16:26:55 Bernd: metadata has been defined in MPEG ISOBMFF 16:27:06 ... This is to be able to expose options to the user in the player. 16:27:14 Bernd: Yes. 16:27:54 Nigel: Why is that a good thing to depart from the DASH/HLS model? 16:27:58 q+ Wolfgang 16:28:06 ack n 16:28:06 nigel, you wanted to ask what are the API requirements 16:28:37 ?1: It allows to be more efficient e.g., with one mono-channel in two different languages. 16:28:51 nigel: It's more efficient at the provider side? 16:28:55 ?1: Yes. 16:29:25 Wolfgang: There are other use cases that make more sense. I wouldn't say that the DASH model is being made obsolete, or that the proposal is even comparable with the DASH problem. 16:30:05 ... What you need is a way to control the decoder with regards to how it uses the metadata. 16:30:27 s/?1/Niko Färber/ 16:30:42 q? 16:30:45 ack W 16:31:12 nigel: Thinking about the accessibility of this, do you have a scheme in mind for a way to associate the choice that the user might make in terms of preselection and an associated text track. 16:31:44 ... Let's say you switch to French. Do you think anything additional is needed to associate the chosen language with the subtitles? 16:32:14 Bernd: The API would give you the metadata so that you can easily see what languages are included. 16:33:05 Wolfgang: If you're using this with DASH, I would expect all the preselection metadata to be also available in the DASH manifest. 16:33:08 okin has joined #me 16:33:29 q? 16:34:30 cpn: What's being proposed here is to take these use cases and move to the next stage of work: taking these requirements and turning them into some kind of Web APIs that browsers would implement in order to enable web applications to make use of these customization features. 16:35:16 l_Megitt, Francois_Daoust, Timo_Kunkel, Wolfgang_Schildbach, Chris_Needham, Tatsuya_Igarashi, Kaz_Ashimura, Kensaku_Komatsu, Mark_Foltz, Nikolaus_Faerber, Bernd_Czelhan, Hiroki_Endo, Hisayuki_Ohmata, Song_Xu 16:35:16 present+ Lingyun_Xie, Dan_Druta, Youenn_Fablet, Michael_Wilson, Kzauhiro_Hoya, Michiko_Kuriyama, Evan_Liu, Takumi_Ishihara, Akira_Nagaoki, Osamu_Nakamura, Kota_Yatagai, Erik_Sprang, Ryoya_Kawai, Brian_Kardell 16:35:18 ... The question to the room is, do we think that's a valuable thing to be working on? If so, what do we do to take it to that next stage? If not, what are the concerns or barriers that might exist? 16:35:48 q+ 16:36:08 markafoltz has joined #me 16:36:25 present+ 16:36:33 nigel: My response to that question is: who is interesting to implement and deploy this? There's work going on in ISO for defining some of this stuff. What's the implementation outlook for this? 16:36:35 present+ Max_Gendler, Aram_Zucker-Scharff , Hongchan_Choi, Nigel_Megitt, Francois_Daoust, Timo_Kunkel, Wolfgang_Schildbach, Chris_Needham 16:36:43 present+ Tatsuya_Igarashi, Kaz_Ashimura, Kensaku_Komatsu, Mark_Foltz, Nikolaus_Faerber, Bernd_Czelhan, Hiroki_Endo, Hisayuki_Ohmata, Song_Xu 16:36:47 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:36:48 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-me-minutes.html kaz 16:36:54 ... Is there a chicken and egg situation? 16:37:31 Wolfgang: In terms of implementations, I know that the Dolby and Fraunhofer NGA codecs have supported these features since the beginning. These features are just not exposed in a Web context. 16:37:57 ... We know some consumers who use these features in a native space and would like to use them in a web context too, but cannot right now for lack of an API. 16:38:36 Wolfgang: The MPEG Systems group at ISO has recently published a final draft. It's final, it won't be changing anymore. 16:38:39 q+ 16:38:42 ack nigel 16:39:04 tidoust: That's all audio API - there's probably metadata in the video space as well, 16:39:23 .. created by cameras etc. Is there an interest in approaching that with both angles at once? 16:39:25 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:39:27 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-me-minutes.html kaz 16:39:35 .. Like we do in other contexts, treating audio and video the same? 16:39:46 Wolfgang: We presented this as an audio API because we're audio guys 16:40:01 .. In ISO/MPEG this was discussed in a media independent way, and it does transfer 16:40:12 .. to video, for example with picture in picture or multiview video. 16:40:27 .. if you have codecs where HDR is available as a post-processing layer, switching it on or off 16:40:33 .. could be exposed via preselections as well. 16:40:38 .. So it could be relevant for video. 16:40:47 .. I haven't thought about subtitles, maybe it could be a use case as well 16:41:08 s/as well./as well. Use cases like picture in picture or multi-view video./ 16:41:11 q+ 16:41:27 ack tidoust 16:41:38 Bernd: We're interested in a general API and our idea is that if we move to the next stage 16:41:50 .. then people will bring their contributions to it. 16:41:53 ack markafoltz 16:42:01 .. (video people, not us, we're audio people!) 16:42:40 markafoltz: Pieces of feedback: Before drafting an API, try to understand precisely what the tehcnical gaps are. 16:43:27 ... And two, if you're not trageting codecs per se, try to explain the limitations of what you're trying to do. For example, metadata that is carried within the codec or on the side. 16:43:33 q+ 16:44:03 q+ 16:44:23 q- later 16:44:31 Bernd: You may have certain requirements that you cannot play some components instead of others, for example, no way to disable a component entirely. 16:45:15 Wolfgang: Maybe I'll clarify the out-of-bitstream delivery. With ISOBMFF, the metadata will be in the init segment. With MSE, you would be able to inspect the metadata. 16:45:47 ... The practical gap is telling the decoder which of these metadata to apply. I don't think that can be easily emulated. 16:46:01 q? 16:46:05 q- 16:46:16 ack kaz 16:47:01 q+ 16:47:05 kaz: Applying this to 3D audio and 3D video, at some point we may want to look at the relationship between this API and geolocation information of the speaker and listener. 16:47:16 ... A way to express the actual location of the audio input and output. 16:47:31 Wolfgang: For the audio, it's possible to qualify what the layout of the audio is. 16:47:45 q- 16:47:51 ... I think that would be possible to express this in the metadata. That would be a question more for the file formats. 16:48:08 q? 16:48:37 cpn: With this kind of codec, does it work well with outputs such as headphones binaural to position things in a 3D space? 16:48:46 nigel has joined #me 16:49:03 Bernd: Live meetings could come to mind. That's a possibility, but then someone needs to create the metadata in the first place. 16:50:06 nigel has joined #me 16:50:07 Wolfgang: I think sources can be positioned in a room, and then some metadata can be used to create interactivity, but that's already a very advanced use case. The very basic "selecting one of a set of versions" works with immersive audio, but it's more basic. 16:51:12 youenn: The API would be about allowing the web app to tell the user agent to selecting this or that setting. By default, I would expect the user agent to be good at selecting the right choice. 16:51:42 rrsagent, make minutes 16:51:43 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-me-minutes.html nigel 16:51:49 ... Describing exactly why the web application may be in a better position to choose would help pushing this forward. 16:51:57 ... In terms of accessibiliy, usually, the user agent is in a good place. 16:52:54 Bernd: In the use cases I presented, the ability to change the prominence of a component is a good example of where things may be hard to determine for the user agent. 16:52:56 q? 16:54:34 cpn: Back to identifying gaps, it seems to me that what is being proposed here is coming from a place where new codecs were developed to satisfy a set of use cases. Mark, you're suggesting to look at it independently of whether new codecs had had been created to understand where the gaps precisely are. 16:55:45 song has joined #me 16:55:47 present+ Harald_Alvestrand, Elad_ Alon, Mark_Vickers 16:55:48 markafoltz: One example is real-time mixing. How can the metadata interact with the Web Audio API. Identifying the gaps would be useful for that. I don't think browsers today understand NGA codecs. 16:55:56 q+ 16:56:17 Wolfgang: I believe that the browser needs to understand a specific codec in practice, the metadata is codec agnostic. 16:57:00 in response to youenn: Agree we should investigate which are the cases where the browsers' default choice is not optimal. As Bernd says, there are some "one size does not fit all" cases. 16:57:26 song: I'm working on NGVC (Next Generation Video Codec). To introduce a new codec, I need to prove what the new codec brings is necessary. 16:58:15 ... Examples of power consumption, efficiency. I'm not familiar with next generation audio. Is the task to introduce new codecs and/or the API? 16:58:21 q+ 16:58:37 ... Do we have any plan to introduce NGV to the Web too? 16:58:44 ack s 16:58:58 q- 16:59:15 Bernd: We're really just focusing on interface. The technology is deployed today otherwise. 16:59:38 song: If we introduce the NGA to the web, do we have any plan to introduce the NGV? 16:59:59 Wolfgang: I don't think a plan exists. As we mentioned earlier, this proposal that we're bringing, we think, apply to video as well. 17:00:18 ... We're looking for feedback on what needs to be changed or added to also make it work for video. 17:01:30 cpn: Trying to bring some conclusion. There isn't strong support to look at incubating an API is the right next step. More support to specify more thoroughly the analysis of use cases, requirements and gaps. That is something that the Media and Entertainment IG can do. 17:02:06 ... I would find it helpful that continuing work in this direction is seen as worthwhile doing. 17:02:50 ... Focusing on audio as we have been, the following question is about broadening the scope to video. 17:03:05 ... Both of these things can be addressed in the IG. 17:03:17 ... How much interest is there in the outcome of the work? 17:03:32 ... Who's interested in helping write this analysis document? 17:03:55 q+ to note that signalling alternative playback options more generally could be useful 17:04:07 Wolfgang: We're willing to contribute to the gap analysis. We'd be looking forward to having more contributors to the gap analysis. 17:04:26 ZheWang: Huawei would also be happy to join this gap analysis. 17:04:28 q? 17:05:24 remote: Florent_Castelli, Gabriel_Brito, John_Riviello, Liang_Zhao, Louay_Bassbouss, Nishitha_Burman, Peter_Thatchr, Rijubrata_Bhaumik, Tomoaki_Mizushima, Weiwei_Xu, Zhe_Wang 17:05:34 nigel: For players, there's a place where players could be made aware of different options. Maybe we should think from that perspective. For example, we mentioned DASH and NGA, there's no point if metadata disagree. 17:06:16 ... I can think of many cases where this kind of thing is helpful for audio. I don't think I've ever seen different video options available. 17:06:32 ... Sign-language interpretation could perhaps come to mind. 17:07:16 present+ Rik_Cabanier 17:07:17 Bernd has joined #me 17:07:42 ... A holistic view of the picture would be useful. A step beyond that, how should they be making a decision for what the users need? From an accessibility perspective, it is not easy to know what settings need to be applied. MovieLabs has an algorithm to compute scores that can help make a choice. 17:08:01 Wolfgang: I can relate to the difficulty of making a selection. 17:09:01 cpn: Proposed next step: elaborate a gap analysis in this IG. The scope can include the use cases. We may include both NGA and NGV. That's what I'm proposing that we do next. 17:09:02 q+ 17:09:06 ack nigel 17:09:06 nigel, you wanted to note that signalling alternative playback options more generally could be useful 17:09:08 ack tidoust 17:10:06 tidoust: Anyone willing to become the main editor who can drive the analysis? 17:10:09 Bernd: Happy to. 17:10:26 Topic: Media Capabilities 17:11:22 Timo: We brought forward this proposal last year at TPAC in the AV4browsers CG. We're now thinking of moving this proposal to this IG. 17:11:25 i/Presenter: B/[slides tbd@@@]/ 17:11:27 ... This is a quick update. 17:11:41 ... Starting point is the Media Capabilities specification. 17:11:52 i/We brought/[slides tbd@@@2]/ 17:11:55 present+ Louay_Bassbouss 17:11:58 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:11:59 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-me-minutes.html kaz 17:12:09 ... We've been looking at how to specific HDR format support. 17:12:41 ... Currently, you have color gamut and transfer function, which is a great start but there's no way to target commercial formats. 17:14:10 Timo: Proposal to adopt similar rules for HdrMetadataType 17:14:14 Timo: Proposal is to add commercial formats, but not in enum but through a registry instead 17:14:20 .. Would love to see a way to develop this further and make it a reality 17:14:39 .. Define registry entries, the three existing ones, plus Dolby Vision and any others that are needed 17:14:45 .. Can look at how this could be materialised 17:14:56 .. Continue discussion in this group and bring it over from the CG to this group 17:15:00 .. One comment that came up: 17:15:05 .. To have more documentation available. 17:15:16 .. Since last year we have published a lot of documentation on line about how Dolby Vision works 17:15:19 .. and how to implement. 17:15:29 .. [slide] Links to resources 17:15:41 .. Hope these slides will be shared later. 17:15:48 slideset: https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/images/a/a6/MediaCapabilities_Proposal_Update.pdf 17:15:52 .. Nothing new compared to last year, just a recap as to what we discussed. 17:15:55 .. This is just a recap. 17:16:02 q+ 17:16:02 .. Comments, are we making omissions? 17:16:10 q+ to ask about Registry definition ownership 17:16:25 cpn: Is it sufficient to have a single Dolby Vision Metadata value, or is more granularity needed? 17:16:30 ack c 17:16:48 Timo: to my understanding yes, but there is flexibility for new values if needed in the Registry in the future. 17:16:56 .. At the moment, it's just one. 17:17:30 q+ 17:17:59 ack n 17:17:59 nigel, you wanted to ask about Registry definition ownership 17:18:13 Nigel: For a Registry, you need a WG to own the Registry Definition. Have you talked to any WG about this? 17:18:18 Timo: Not yet 17:18:32 Nigel: Also they could delegate management of the Registry table values to an IG, potentially. 17:18:48 cpn: Media WG would be a good fit for owning this, if they agree they want to do it. 17:19:00 .. Media WG has a large number of existing Registries. 17:19:14 .. Like for EME, MSE Web Codecs, etc. Used to managing Registries in that group. 17:19:37 .. Would change the API Specification, from having an enum value to other identifiers. 17:19:47 .. There's complexity with enums, we switched to strings. 17:19:50 tidoust3 has joined #me 17:20:00 .. We could revisit the decision to have a Registry if it's felt that just adding an enum value to the 17:20:05 .. existing spec is the appropriate way to go. 17:20:18 .. The concern that we had when we discussed it last year was variability between implementations 17:20:30 .. that meant that the presence of the Registry wouldn't necessarily mean all implementations 17:20:37 .. would be required to include it. Is that correct? 17:20:45 Timo: Not sure, there was concern to add a commercial enum value. 17:20:56 .. From our point of view we would like to be able to address the format correctly, 17:21:08 .. don't mind how, we're happy with both approaches. 17:21:16 Wolfgang: We're not asking for any specific technology to be supported. 17:21:32 .. Just an addition to the media capability API so that the client code can ask what is supported. 17:21:41 .. "No" is a perfectly acceptable answer. 17:21:43 okin has joined #me 17:21:54 cpn: Trying to recall why we concluded that a Registry would be worthwhile last time. 17:22:11 tidoust3: Might depend on whether a normative definition of what it means is needed. 17:22:25 .. In this case, if there's no public specification, it means that you end up with a normative reference 17:22:34 .. to a commercial specification, which you may not want. 17:22:37 q? 17:22:43 .. The Registry provides an intermediate layer. 17:22:57 AramZS: I noticed when reviewing the spec, you should try to get it early through PING. 17:23:19 .. Adding a navigator object that returns implementation support details is a fingerprinting vector. 17:23:33 .. Should get PING review early rather than later. 17:23:48 tidoust3: Seems to be a more generic question about the Media Capabilities API, or just on this new value? 17:24:02 .. The API already has an identified issue about fingerprinting and mitigations. 17:24:11 .. There's been interaction with PING on this already. 17:24:17 .. You may not like the solution! 17:24:24 cpn: Concerns about what you mentioned did come out. 17:24:35 .. To the extent of questioning the whole MSE and EME approach, 17:24:43 .. where the web app is doing things not just the browser. 17:24:59 .. They're argument is why not hand a URL to the browser and let it handle all the details. 17:25:11 .. We need to discuss this on Thursday - the rationale for why the design is how it is. 17:25:26 AramZS: Yeah that's pretty normal, it just occurred to me that a different approach might be 17:25:40 .. more satisfactory from a privacy focus. 17:25:50 cpn: Yes, that's about the API in general not just the individual value. 17:25:51 kaz2 has joined #me 17:25:55 .. Thank you, it's a very good point. 17:25:55 q? 17:25:56 AramZS: Thanks 17:25:59 q- 17:25:59 ack a 17:26:03 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:26:04 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-me-minutes.html kaz2 17:28:42 Timo: Thinking about the CG, discussing next steps, keep going or close it. 17:28:50 .. Want to give members a chance to share their opinions. 17:28:59 .. At the moment we don't have too much traction. 17:29:05 .. Any thoughts, please let us know. 17:29:14 .. Someone signed up only this morning, so there is some momentum! 17:29:25 q? 17:29:38 s/CG/Audiovisual Media Formats for Browsers CG 17:29:56 cpn: We created the CG to focus on a specific scope, and as a place not to design solutions, 17:30:08 .. but to be more of an interest group contribution structure. 17:30:16 .. I'd like to fold the activity there into this IG. 17:30:29 .. The only question is your (Dolby) membership status, to solve that problem. 17:30:43 .. Then you'd get the support of Chairs here to help move it forwards. 17:30:54 .. What tends to happen is that the CG list is public and can be discovered and joined 17:31:09 .. but if there's no real activity happening there then they end up with nothing to see or follow up on. 17:31:18 .. Having a place where it's actively being worked on is helpful. 17:31:24 q+ 17:31:26 .. That's just my suggestion 17:31:44 .. If people feel that a dedicated group is more appropriate structure, happy to operate that way 17:31:46 tidoust has joined #me 17:31:50 .. I suggest thinking about that over the break. 17:32:06 kaz: Another WG is also thinking about Registries for various reasons. 17:32:17 .. Would like you all to think about the whole mechanism of the expected Registry and 17:32:31 .. which parts would be handled by which Registry and what our role is here. 17:32:40 .. Please discuss during the meeting on Thursday. 17:32:50 cpn: Happy to talk to the WoT WG about how they handle Registries. 17:33:20 Nigel: TTWG has Registries too, happy to share experiences. 17:33:36 cpn: Adjourn for now, next after the break is joint meeting with Timed Text WG. 17:34:05 rrsagent, make minutes 17:34:07 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-me-minutes.html nigel 17:42:00 JohnRiv has joined #me 17:58:29 JohnRiv has joined #me 18:04:15 q? 18:04:20 ack k 18:05:36 shiestyle has joined #me 18:06:09 wschi has joined #me 18:06:22 present+ Wolfgang Schildbach 18:08:02 Topic: TTWG / MEIG Joint Meeting 18:08:09 okin has joined #me 18:08:13 scribe+ cpn 18:08:33 Nigel: I chair TTWG, with Gary Katsevman 18:09:04 ... There are 3 topics in the agenda: Update on TTWG, a look at DAPT, and discussion on Timed Text in MSE 18:09:22 ... Anything else to cover? 18:09:23 (nothing) 18:09:31 subtopic: Updates from TTWG 18:09:52 Nigel: We published the IMSC HRM as Recommendation 18:10:08 ... It used to be in IMSC, but we've updated it and made a test suite, and met Rec requirements 18:10:33 AramZS has joined #me 18:10:35 ... The biggest area activity is DAPT, some activity on WebVTT, and less on TTML2 18:10:47 ... We recharter in April next year 18:11:01 ... TTML 2nd Edition has been in CR since 2021 18:11:17 ... On Friday's TTWG meeting is to assess what we need to do to get to Rec 18:12:07 ... IMSC has been Rec for a while. Three versions simultaneously active 18:12:18 ... We'll think about whether we do a new version of IMSC 18:12:30 ... A requirement that came up is the ability to do superscript and subscript 18:12:39 ... And removing the HRM, as it's in a separate spec 18:12:52 ... On WebVTT, it's been at CR since April 2019 18:13:37 ... Apple will discuss interop issues on Friday, and attribute block for metadata, and an inline block backdrop element 18:13:57 .... DAPT is a working draft. We aim to resolve to get to CR on Friday 18:14:45 ... Other things, we got feedback last year. It's hard for beginners to the TTML ecosystem to get started. Is that a shared issue for people here? 18:15:09 ... We are happy to work with industry partners on the best way to share information 18:15:18 ... MDN documentation is user, not implemneter focused 18:15:27 kaz has joined #me 18:15:30 ... CCSUBS group has industry partners, sharing implementation experience 18:15:40 q? 18:16:02 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:16:03 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-me-minutes.html kaz 18:16:23 osamu has joined #me 18:16:41 Chris: On the TTML ecosystem, where is the feedback coming from? 18:17:18 Nigel: Someone in the APA WG mentioned it. But it seems easy for people who're immersed in it. Interested to hear views 18:17:29 ... Also happy to take feedback outside the meeting 18:18:06 Francois: Could depend on the audience. IMSC documentation in MDN, seems a good entry point for developers. If you're targeting standards groups, e.g., the W3C accessibility community, it's a different audience 18:18:15 ... A document for them could be useful? 18:18:38 Nigel: The MDN doc is useful for people making caption documents, less useful for implementers building players 18:18:41 markvickers has joined #me 18:18:48 i|We published the IMSC|-> https://www.w3.org/TR/2024/REC-imsc-hrm-20240425/ IMSC HRM Rec| 18:18:58 ... Lots of implementations not in browsers, and variety in the implementations 18:19:14 ... People may want to use advanced features but not know where to get started 18:19:15 tidoust_ has joined #me 18:19:27 q? 18:19:35 atsushi_web has joined #me 18:19:38 subtopic: DAPT 18:20:10 -> https://www.w3.org/TR/2024/WD-dapt-20240916/ Dubbing and Audio description Profiles of TTML2 18:20:15 Nigel: The purpose of the spec, it's a profile of TTML2, transcripts of audio or video, transform them into scripts 18:20:32 ... Dubbing scripts, or audio description scripts, with instructions for the player 18:20:48 ... Can be used to play in the browser. I have JS code to do that, using TextTrackCue and Web Audio 18:21:35 ... Your first step creating dubbing scripts is to capture the original language. Because it's based on TTML, easy to transform to IMSC 18:21:55 ... It's an improvement to the audience experience. 18:22:19 Cyril: We've had reports at netflix where content isn't dubbed or described consistency 18:22:37 ... We've brought our TTAL spec to W3C for standardisation. It's something we really care about 18:23:13 ... I have colleagures who are German-speaking with dubbing and captions in German. If the entire sentence is different, it's really annyoing 18:23:37 Nigel: That happens because when people localise the media, they send it to different providers for dubbing and for captioning 18:24:11 ... DAPT is good, as it allows people to do the transcript and translation stage once, then go the dubbing and captions separately - from a common source 18:24:49 Cyril: DAPT aims to fill the gap between the different vendors. Scripts weren't shareable between formats, Excel, scanned PDFs with notes. So a standard mahine-readable format helps 18:25:17 present+ Atsushi_Shimono 18:25:30 Nigel: Current status, it's a working draft. The spec is defined with a data model, defines entities to represent the scripts, then how to represent the data model in TTML2 18:25:36 shiestyle has joined #me 18:25:36 shiestyle has joined #me 18:25:48 ... It helps guide us producing tests 18:26:26 ... The data model is a script, with script events (timed). Those contain text objects, potentially in different languages. Then what that represents - dialog or non-dialog sounds, something in-vision (text or objects) 18:26:35 ... If text, is it a credit or a location indicator? 18:27:01 ... We may use a registry for the content descriptors for what each thing represents 18:27:11 ... Happy to answer questions. Anything else? 18:27:30 Cyril: We tried to write the spec in a way that you don't have to undertsand the complexity of TTML 18:27:57 ... Incrementally understanding the concepts. Hopefully we did a good job, interested in fedeback 18:28:24 ... Also, a simple way to implement, can be very restricted to what you actually need. Because DAPT is a strict subset of TTML 18:28:46 ... DAPT isn't about presentation, subtitles ina position with colour. It's about the timing and the text 18:28:58 Nigel: But you can add the styling and position data if useful 18:28:58 ? 18:29:02 s/?// 18:29:03 q? 18:29:31 Nigel: There's significant interest in using this. Peopl eusing proprietary standards. Some of the AD standarsd are old and hard to extend 18:29:48 ... So be doing this, and improving the feature seat, we want to make it easier for people creating localised versions 18:30:38 ... For the end user, for dubbed versions, we don't intend to expose the ... directly. No expectation to deliver to the browser for mass distribution 18:31:05 ... For AD, could all be provider-side, but there's an additional benefit of delivering to the browser 18:31:17 ... The user can adjust the mix to their own needs 18:31:37 q+ 18:31:41 ... In the UK broadcast market, you can adjust the mix levels. Clash between background sounds and dialog in the description 18:32:06 shiestyle has left #me 18:32:22 ... As well as changing the mix, you can expose to assistive technology, e.g., a braille display. Watch video and get the braille description simultaneously 18:32:54 Wolfgang: ?? 18:33:26 Nigel: I use the DAPT description to drive gain nodes in Web Audio. It is feasible, but not typically done in the web space. Similar use case to earlier this morning 18:34:01 ... If you wanted to create an NGA version, with preselection, you could do iit by proessing a DAPT document. Happy to work with you on that 18:34:18 s/??/How is the use case of changing the audio levels being implemented today in web apps?/ 18:34:38 Wolfgang: I'd be interested to try that 18:35:23 Nigel: The gap, is the DAPT can contain texts and the audio components, but with NGA I don't think there's a way to put the text equivalent in. How would you sync that with NGA? 18:35:25 q? 18:35:29 ack w 18:35:56 q? 18:36:25 subtopic: Timed text in MSE 18:37:09 Nigel: This topic has come up several times over the years, and not gone anywhere 18:37:34 ... If you're familiar with MSE, you know you typically use them to fill a buffer pipeline of media 18:37:49 ... It works well got audio and video, but not specified for timed text 18:38:11 ... When I've talked to my BBC colleagues who write our players, they say it could simplify their implementation 18:38:32 .... Buffer management all done in the same way, rather than a different mechanism for text 18:39:25 ... Could create TextTrackCues for the data. It can be difficult to manage the size of the TextTrackCue list, these could grow and grow, so good to have a way to manage the buffering 18:39:42 ... Not suggesting doing anything different for rendering 18:40:03 ... Is this a shared requirement? Suggest adding Text Tracks in MSE to Media WG? 18:40:21 Wolfgang: So today, subtitles are rendered by the web app? 18:40:32 Nigel: They could be, or passed to the browser for rendering 18:40:53 ... But in DASH or HLS, the pipeline management isn't done through MSE, but in parallel by the app 18:41:25 Wolfgang: Playout in times? 18:41:43 Chris: The media element handles that, by triggering the cues at the right time 18:42:14 Cyril: The problem that we have to have different code paths for AV and text assets is really there 18:42:20 Wolfgang: So I understand it is not about playout in sync, but rather about buffer management. 18:43:02 Cyril: On rendering, ideally it should be possible to download and buffer text assets like audio and video and defer rendering to the browser, if it has the capabilities, or the JS level 18:43:46 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:43:47 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-me-minutes.html kaz 18:44:23 ... Options for how you preserve styles. Apple want to have OS styles applied to captions, whereas Netflix wants to have control over the styles across the 18:44:39 Chris: Fetch as separate files or within the media container? 18:44:40 i|This topic has come up|-> https://www.w3.org/TR/2024/WD-media-source-2-20240704/ Media Source Extensions WD| 18:44:42 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:44:44 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-me-minutes.html kaz 18:45:17 Nigel: That happens now, you wrap the data in the MP4, that's how they're package according to CMAF 18:45:45 ... If you have the infrastructure for fetching MP4 segments, why do something different for the audio and video? 18:45:59 ?2: Question about the rendering 18:46:32 Bernd has joined #me 18:47:01 Cyril: It is a separable problem, but it never was separated. Feed data to the MSE, and it gets rendered. Here you need a callback to the app. How do you ensure a bad user doesn't create many many cues to overload the browser? 18:47:10 Nigel: Why would you want to do that? 18:47:18 s/?2:/Nikolaus:/ 18:47:22 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:47:23 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-me-minutes.html kaz 18:47:46 Cyril: It's about the browsers need to be defensive 18:48:09 s/different for the audio and video/different for timed text compared to the audio and video 18:48:25 cpn: The requirement would be that there is some notifcation from MSE to the web app that a cue has been extracted from the media. 18:49:15 cpn: currently we have enter and exit events, if browser manages all this. Is this adequate and in time? 18:49:20 i/The requi/scribenick: wschi/ 18:49:30 Cyril: it is too late. 18:49:51 ... would have to have the notification in advance 18:50:04 Nigel: The Safari tech preview, it puts each Cue into an HTML fragment, then the cue rendering is obvious 18:50:28 ... If you think about a video decoder pipeline, it's not instantaneous either. It needs a few frames to do something 18:50:34 i/The Safari/scribenick: cpn/ 18:50:37 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:50:38 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-me-minutes.html kaz 18:50:44 q? 18:50:44 ... The processing load for putting text on screen is unlikely to be higher than that 18:51:36 cpn: why does the web app not extract the cues from the media, and then purge out cues no longer relevant? 18:52:08 Chris: So this is about having a unified approach to the memory management 18:52:08 Nigel: Yes 18:52:13 q? 18:52:14 q+ 18:52:36 Aram: Is there a reason why the Safari approach of HTML framents isn't desirable? 18:52:54 Nigel: That moves the presentation side to a better place than it is now 18:53:18 ... Partly, it relates to the privacy issue we discussed earlier. Pass the content to the browser. Modelled on WebVTT at the moment 18:53:45 ... But it's no good if you don't want to use WebVTT. It provides a canonical format for WebVTT 18:54:01 ... I have questions about exactly how it works, but aims to be more flexible 18:54:38 Aram: It seems desirable from a developer perspective to have the HTML fragments in place. Developer movement to using HTML fragments, so there could be more people familiar now than even a year ago 18:55:15 Nigel: There are lots of formats people use in practice. We can try to avoid that mattering, than have a canonical way to pass that information through 18:55:37 q- 18:56:19 cpn: Are there implementations that do this with VTT today? Like creation of queues and pulling them out of the media. 18:56:49 ... data queue is an example. There are implementations that exist but are not speced. 18:57:09 s/data queue/DataCue/ 18:57:52 Nigel: How to get to a conclusion? We could stop worrying about it, if it's not something we want to do. Or try to get the ball rolling 18:57:57 q? 18:58:38 Cyril: Apple has this proposal, implemented. How did other browsers react? Was there a lack of interest? 18:59:00 Nigel: One proposal is to manage the buffer pipeline for timed text through the MSE buffer. I dont' know of any implementations of that 18:59:19 ... The other is decoding and passing to the web app, as HTML fragments 18:59:31 Cyril: The second depends on the first. 19:00:26 Nigel: From previous conversations, e.g, with Eric, his view was the way browsers implement WebVTT is to already create an HTML fragment then expose to the shadow DOM 19:00:50 ... A consequence of that is move the WebVTT decoding upstream. then it's easier to polyfill 19:01:24 ... WebVTT spec has been in CR for 5 years, not enough implemnetation experience to move ahead. But people aren't implementing it 19:02:02 ... This could be a path out of that. You could democratise the format requirement, so not have a dependency on the single format, but also make it easier to standardise the formats people want 19:02:22 Nigel: Standardising the presentation part means it's easier to standardise what goes in to MSE 19:02:43 Cyril: If you have a way to put text into MSE, without a way to surface that, the only alternative is native implementation 19:03:00 ... Browsers don't like that because of attack surface area, complexity, etc 19:04:12 Chris: This all widely supported in other environments 19:05:07 ... Allowing a pluarility of formats overall seems a good thing, personally 19:05:55 Nigel: It's a part of the web standards ecosystem that doesn't make sense to me. A lot of people view the WebVTT format as the web's format. But it's not a Rec 19:06:25 Chris: Is there interest to work on VTT interop? 19:06:37 Nigel: Apple want to talk about that on Friday in TTWG 19:07:30 Chris: Next steps for this? 19:08:03 Nigel: Text Tracks in MSE isn't on TTWG agenda. It would need Media WG support 19:08:39 s/pluarility/plurality/ 19:09:35 Nigel: How to summarise. There's some interest and benefit to pushing timed text through MSE. Nobody said it's a bad idea. Possibly need to consider together a canonical handover format on the output of the MSE pipeline to the MSE processor 19:09:59 ... And Apple have a prototype implementation based on HTML fragments 19:12:40 Chris: We also discussed similar requirements aroudn emsg events and timed metadata. But timed text seems a better motivatign use case 19:13:27 Nigel: If you're delivering packaged segments of timed text info, do you convert to the canonical format on the way in to the MSE buffer or on the way out 19:13:42 ... I think I prefer on the way out 19:15:37 q? 19:15:50 q+ 19:16:13 q- 19:16:26 Chris: Need to get implementer input, we have siginficant steraming providers interested to use it, but the folks aren't in the room right now 19:16:56 Aram: Want to see improvement in this area, so it does seem worth doing 19:17:52 Chris: Suggest catching up with people during TPAC week 19:17:59 kaz2 has joined #me 19:18:19 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:18:20 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-me-minutes.html kaz2 19:19:00 Nigel: Action should be to tell Media WG that we've discussed, and there are some views on how might be implemented 19:19:14 q? 19:20:05 Topic: Media Breakouts 19:20:19 kaz2 has joined #me 19:20:41 Igarashi: There are several media breakout sessions proposed. 19:21:04 ?3: On Wednesday, we have a session on Media Over QUIC. People interested in low latency features 19:21:22 ... Also synchronising media and data with the video and how can be realised with MoQ 19:21:28 s/?3/Komatsu(NTT Com) 19:21:39 kaz has joined #me 19:21:43 tidoust has joined #me 19:21:45 ... I'll demonstrate some use cases. I think there's a gap, so we'd like to discuss 19:22:03 i|On Wed|-> https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/27699c89-3e19-40ed-9bed-9b5f137fc303/ Sync on Web, now and next of realtime media services on web Breakout| 19:22:11 q+ 19:22:42 Kaz: Smart cities will be at 4pm 19:23:29 song has joined #me 19:23:29 https://www.w3.org/2024/09/TPAC/breakouts.html 19:23:29 i|Smart|-> https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/df2c5c9b-b9b5-4ea2-a4d8-6cecaca81c08/ Smart Cities Breakout| 19:23:36 q+ 19:23:50 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:23:51 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-me-minutes.html kaz2 19:24:06 Igarashi: HTTPs on the local network, I was cochairing the CG, but others have suggested the topic. Media streaming on the home network 19:24:31 i|HTTPs|-> https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/09083118-ca0a-4347-9271-6adf7798c935/ HTTPS for Local Networks Breakout| 19:24:33 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:24:35 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-me-minutes.html kaz2 19:24:51 Song: Is that MoQ? China Mobile is interested, we released a joint development at MWC in Barcelona 19:25:06 ... How can I find the details on the breakout? 19:25:22 https://github.com/w3c/tpac2024-breakouts/ 19:25:43 i|So I understand|scribenick: wschi| 19:25:45 https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/49386363-7a65-4f4a-9580-bff867a1c6e9/ 19:25:54 i|On rendering|scribenick: cpn| 19:26:00 Evolved Video Encoding with WebCodecs 19:26:15 i|why does the web|scribenick: wschi| 19:26:23 -> https://www.w3.org/2024/09/TPAC/breakouts.html Official breakout schedule 19:26:30 i|So this is a|scribenick: cpn| 19:26:45 i|Are there imp|scribenick: wsci| 19:26:55 i|How to get to a|scribenick: cpn| 19:26:59 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:27:00 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-me-minutes.html kaz2 19:31:42 shiestyle has joined #me 19:35:11 AramZS has joined #me 19:47:13 nigel has joined #me 20:07:04 JohnRiv_ has joined #me 20:17:43 shiestyle has joined #me 20:25:21 shiestyle has joined #me 20:26:23 nigel has joined #me 20:48:02 JohnRiv has joined #me 20:49:40 AramZS has joined #me 20:49:50 wschi has joined #me 20:50:16 nigel has joined #me 20:50:27 Niko has joined #me 20:51:25 Niko has left #me 20:51:56 Niko has joined #me 20:52:03 Niko has left #me 20:54:47 Niko has joined #me 20:55:11 Niko has left #me 20:55:42 Niko has joined #me 20:56:41 okin has joined #me 20:59:10 nigel has joined #me 20:59:17 nigel has joined #me 20:59:54 tidoust has joined #me 21:00:50 q? 21:00:58 ack kaz 21:01:00 ack song 21:01:18 Topic: CTA WAVE Streaming Media Test Suite 21:03:07 louay has joined #me 21:03:27 present+ Louay_Bassbouss 21:03:28 Ohmata has joined #me 21:04:29 Kota has joined #me 21:04:29 kaz has joined #me 21:04:46 rrsagent, draft minutes 21:04:47 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-me-minutes.html kaz 21:05:36 osamu has joined #me 21:05:46 i|Are there implementations|scribenick: wschi| 21:05:53 scribe+ cpn 21:05:53 Louay: Sorry I couldn't be there in person 21:06:09 i|We could stop worrying|scribenick: cpn| 21:06:10 rrsagent, draft minutes 21:06:11 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-me-minutes.html kaz 21:06:33 ... You may have heard about this already, we presented to an MEIG teleconference 21:07:10 ... I'll explain about CTA WAVE in general 21:07:51 ... Consumer Technology Association, Web Application Video Ecosystem 21:07:58 ... Web delivered media and commercial audio and video on consumer electronics 21:08:16 ... WAVE defines a set of specs, test suites, and test tools 21:08:16 remote+ Louay_Bassbouss 21:08:54 ... Listed here are some of the most important specs, Device Playback Capabilities is the focus today, others like CMCD, CMSD, Web Media API 21:09:18 ... Test suites are available to be able to test these specs and whether consumer devices are compliant 21:09:41 ... Web Media API Snapshot test suite, but here I'll focus on DPC 21:10:10 ... Conformance test software, GCP is a conformance tool to make sure DASH content is conformant to different profiles 21:10:30 ... Going into the DPC spec, it defines normative requirements for content playback on devices 21:10:48 ... CTA WAVE content is not only content and programmes, which is basically a sequence of CMAF content 21:11:05 ... Media playback model, DRM protected media, WAVE content playback requirements etc 21:11:34 remote+ Jim_Helman, Sunggook_Chue 21:11:40 ... With playback requrements, there are multiple scenarios, where DPC makes sure devices are compliant, switching sets, random access, sequential track playback 21:11:53 ... These are defined in the DPC spec and the Test Content Format spec 21:12:10 ... They define what steps are needed to run a sequence of tests and pass/fail criteria 21:12:33 ken has joined #me 21:12:48 ... W3C testing activities, mainly happens in the WPT project. In the DPCTF test suite we're introducing additional components to what is already in WPT 21:13:16 ... Slide 5 21:14:00 ... The main components, github links. Mezzanine content annotated A/V content to make the testing process easier 21:14:19 ... The main requirement here is to make the test process automatic, no human support to run the tests, which would be time consuming 21:14:43 ... Detect if frames are being skipped on the device 21:14:56 ... Next are the test content repositories. Different codecs and configurations 21:15:17 hiroki_endo has joined #me 21:15:19 ... These are used in the test conformance validator. Joint project between DASH-IF, CTA WAVE, HbbTV 21:15:46 ... You can run the tests on devices in different environments. We focus on the web environment, MSE and EME 21:16:05 ... Slide 4 shows there are multiple tests. For each , there's a test implenented 21:16:21 ... The most important component is the observation framework 21:16:32 ... This is basically a camera that records A/V content playing on the device 21:16:41 Bernd has joined #me 21:16:51 ... After a test is done, the recording is automatically analysed to understand if the test passes or fails 21:16:59 ... Slide 6 21:17:34 ... A test video is playing, video includes annotations, rotating QR codes on each frame. It includes info about the current frame displayed 21:17:41 ... It allows the OF to automatically analyse 21:17:57 ... The red arrows allow you to ensure the content is properly displayed on the screen 21:18:06 ... QR codes for audio and video sync 21:18:16 ... Time codes are shown 21:18:37 ... We have audio annotations, provided by Dolby and Fraunhofer IIS, partners in the project 21:19:07 ... Also available in different frame rates and fractional frame rates. CMAF test content is generated from the mezzanine content 21:19:13 ... Slide 7 21:19:24 ... CMAF media segments and fragments, with metadata describing the segments 21:19:38 ... DASH MPD, but you can use HLS as well, as they reference the same content 21:19:43 ... We have validatorrs for DASH content 21:20:13 ... The content will be encoded in different combinations of content options, content. Special content for debugging. Different resolutions for switching sets, and DRM protected content 21:20:47 ... There's a matrix between the tests and the content. And a validation process that uses JCCP DASH validator 21:21:03 .... Test implementations are in HTML and JS templates 21:21:11 ... Slide 8 21:21:34 ... The templates reference the specification section numbers, clear definitions for how the tests should work 21:21:50 ... The templates allow a single test can be run with multiple content options 21:22:11 ... A test is a combination of HTML, JS, and CTA WAVE content 21:22:43 ... Using MSE and EME for encrypted tests. We have common libraries used in different tests, MPD parsing 21:23:39 ... Why not use existing players like dash.js or Shaka Player? We're trying to have a minimal implementation, independent of external players, the test instructions work at the MSE level, buffering 21:23:59 ... The players don't give the flexibility from a testing perspective 21:24:26 ... They include what is to be tested and nothing else. Sequential playback, random access to fragments, buffer underrun and recovery 21:24:33 ... Thsi is just a small snapshot of the tests 21:24:40 ... Slide 9 21:25:06 ... The HTML and JS templates are similar to those in the WPT repository, e.g., for WebRTC, Fetch API, etc 21:25:10 kuriyama3 has joined #me 21:25:26 ... Tests focus on the functionalities of specific APIs. Similar here 21:25:59 ... Because we focus on embedded devices, streaming devices and smart TVs, but also applies to any mobile or desktop device 21:26:14 ... The test runner takes the tests from the test repository and runs them on a device 21:26:41 ... It's built on top of WPT. We extended WPT to support embedded devices, where you don't have much flexibility on user inputs 21:27:04 ... Also limited ability to install a test runner, e.g., an HTTP server 21:27:36 ...Our extension is contributed back to the WPT project 21:27:58 ... You can use these with existing W3C WPTs, not only the tests developed by WAVE 21:28:17 ... You have a Device under test, which just needs to open a web page, scan a QR code 21:28:27 ... You have a companion app where you can select the tests to run 21:28:35 markvickers has joined #me 21:28:38 ... You can do a full test run, or a selection of tests 21:28:58 ... You can filter the tests, e.g., a set for HbbTV specifications 21:29:12 ... Slide 10 21:29:29 ... The last component is the observation framework. One component of this is recording. You can use a smartphone to record 21:29:58 ... One requirement is the recording quality 21:30:14 ... Each frame needs to be detected, so the frame rate needs to be at least 2x the frame rate on the TV 21:30:29 ... With new smartphone models you can record at 120fps 21:31:07 ... Most of the content is 50 or 60fps or a fractional frame rate. In future we'll have 120fps content, so you'd need to record at 240fps 21:31:20 ... Record offline, then copy the video file to a server and run the OF script on it 21:31:34 ... This will analyse the content frame by frame, using the QR codes 21:31:48 ... It detects if frames are skipped and so on 21:32:03 ... With automatic observation, it's important to have automatic generation of test reports 21:32:53 ... This picture shows 2 additional QR codes. The one on the right is generated by the test app, not in the video content. It includes info about the status of the tests and the video playback 21:33:05 ... You can compare the frame timestamp with the time recorded by the video element 21:33:51 ... For the random access to segment tests, you can check the right events are generated. All this info is embedded in the QR codes 21:34:18 ... The tests checks the media player integration in the device is working. 21:34:30 ... Slide 11 21:35:01 ... To make it easy to use the test suite, we made a landing page, with an explainer 21:35:11 ... You can instal and run the tests yourself 21:35:22 ... Everything is open source, in GitHub 21:35:42 ... You can raise issues in GitHub or provide feedback 21:36:00 ... I recommend the landing page as the starting point, follow the instructions there 21:36:28 ... [Shows demo video] 21:36:41 ... Slide 12 21:37:22 ... Cable connects the audio output from the TV 21:38:33 ... Now the test is playing on the TV, you can follow the progress on the companion screen 21:38:49 ... We have assertions that the video is playing properly and no errors from the media element or MSE 21:39:44 ... Now the video is ended. We have special QR codes for the start and end frames, because in many cases there are issues with playing the first or the last frame of the content 21:40:14 ... The next content is then loaded. A special QR code is shown between the tests 21:40:29 ... The OF knows there the test results are to be submitted 21:41:36 ... When all the tests are finished, you get a QR code on the test screen, the OF detects the test is ended 21:42:10 ... These aren't the final results as you then need to do the video analysis. The page is then updated 21:42:24 ... You can download the results in HTML or JSON format, same as WPT 21:42:50 ... Slide 13 21:43:29 ... Technical requirements for installing the test suite. We prefer Linux, everythiing is containerised with Docker 21:43:49 ... If you're running the DRM tests you'll need TLS server certificates 21:44:04 ... And you need to record at 120fps 21:44:10 ... Slide 14 21:44:20 ... Test report is similar to WPT 21:44:45 ... In this case every video frame assertion is failed, because a frame was skipped 21:45:10 ... Another failure is the playback duration, which doesn't match the CMAF track duration 21:45:31 ... Slide 15 21:46:02 ... We use the HbbTV plugfest to do testing and validation. There have been testing events in the last 2 years, the next is in 2 weeks at Fraunhofer Fokus in Berlin 21:46:24 ... We'll ensure the test suite is working across devices 21:46:41 ... We use this daily in our labs 21:46:51 ... Slide 16 21:47:22 ... How it works with HbbTV? We use a setup with a DVB modulator where you can signal the app to the TV, which is the test suite landing page 21:47:38 ... The device under test is an HbbTV terminal 21:47:48 ... But it could be any device with MSE and EME 21:47:56 ... Slide 17 21:48:17 ... Test results from the plugfest last year. We run the test suite on the latest TVs on the market 21:48:21 ... Slide 18 21:48:40 ... Any questions? You're welcome to get in touch 21:48:47 q? 21:49:41 Wolfgang: You use HbbTV as a convenient way to start the tests on the TV 21:50:06 ... Are you aware of others using DIAL or other ways to launch? 21:50:23 Louay: You can use DIAL, as the way to launch the tests 21:50:54 ... In some situations we also have issues with external networks at testing events, you sometimes discover the terminal through DIAL, due to restrictions on the local network 21:51:09 kazho has joined #me 21:51:43 ... There are 3 browser engines ont he TV. The HbbTV browser, the runtime for running smart TV apps, like Tizen or WebOS - these are browsers with additional features 21:52:06 ... We use hosted web apps. Your app is a small file that points to the landing page and you can run the tests in the same way 21:52:08 q? 21:52:38 Chris: What is happening next? 21:53:03 Louay: Audio test content from Dolby and Fraunhofer IIS. We're now going to validate the tests 21:53:04 q+ 21:53:45 ... In terms of the OF, the most wanted feature is to do this in real time. Currently you record with the smartphone, then upload, then analyse 21:54:04 ... So while you're recording we'd start the analysis in parallel. Maybe we can get it working in real time 21:54:22 ... It'll mean you don't need to wait to get the results 21:55:05 Kaz: NHK interest in this mechanism for testing. Differences with Hybridcast, but we should be able to use this framework 21:55:36 Louay: HbbTV is one platform, but we don't use the broadcast features or HbbTV specific APIs. We only rely on HTML, JS, MSE 21:55:49 ... and EME, for the DRM tests 21:56:32 Ohmata: IPTF-J is a member. We tried to use the suite on Hybridcast TV. The limited memory and CPU on TVs causes some to freeze 21:56:55 ... We're trying now to use all the tests 21:56:55 s/NHK interest/wondering about NHK's interest/ 21:57:41 Louay: Non functional requirements. If you test on older TVs, you may have issues with memory management. If the test suite fails because of these limitations, it's an indication that an open source player like DASH.js or Shaka might also have issues 21:58:04 ... It's helpful for us, create a GitHub issue and we'll do our best to support you 21:58:07 q? 21:58:11 ack k 21:58:27 Ohmata: Thank you 21:58:55 Chris: Consistency of implemtations or any W3C spec issues that can help with interop? 21:59:37 Louay: MSE is the most important API. There are examples in the tests for using MSE. The thing we see most is skipped frames at the beginning 22:00:04 ... Was it really an issue with the test implementation, or with the TV? It was a repeating failre on many devices 22:00:28 ... Also some with A/V synchronisation 22:00:45 ... If you look at the validated tests now, those pass on major TV sets 22:01:00 q? 22:02:37 Chris: This is such an important contribution. Congratulations on the work you've done here 22:02:51 Topic: Web Media Snapshot Update 22:03:02 John: One of the groups in WAVE is the HTML5 API Task Force 22:03:15 ... Some updates worth bringing to the group here 22:03:50 ... Since 2017 every year we've released a snapshot document. the minimum set of standards for media playback across the 4 major browsers 22:04:17 ... Drives an understanding of what features are availble on TV devices at the time the snapshot is published 22:04:39 ... The work happens in WAVE and the W3C Web Media API CG 22:04:57 ... We jointly publish the spec, W3C and CTA 22:05:21 ... We publish every December. Starting last year with WMAS 2023, we set the target date to November 1st 22:05:43 ... Standards groups reference it, e.g., ATSC, so we try to fit their timescales 22:05:59 ... ATSC 3.0 they reference the 2021 snapshot, HbbTV 2.4 references 2021 22:06:42 ... There is a WMAS test suite that Louay and team have developed 22:07:05 ... Launch through DIAL or a TV modulator 22:07:19 ... The primary tests are from WPT, also ECMAscript and WebGL tests 22:07:39 ... You can test the full set of featrures in browsers for the TVs for each year 22:08:26 ... 2024 snapshot updates. The expectations in the next release: CSS to 2023 snapshot. This includes Media Queries Level 4, which reduces the media types to print and screen. TV was deprecated 22:08:55 ... There's a WPT for the deprecation, and we tested on devices, so it's supported and excepted 22:09:23 ... It was added to the spec in 2011, so we were comfortable making the change. If you're concerned let us know. Use the media feature option instead. 22:09:34 AramZS has joined #me 22:09:57 ... We updated to ECMAscript 2024, which has a couple exceptions based on what's implemented 22:10:26 ... WHATWG are living standards, we reference a recent review draft from WHATWG, and tell people to use this version or later 22:10:33 ... Also WebSockets, which are in its own WHATWG spe 22:10:38 s/spe/spec/ 22:10:40 q+ to ask why not use W3C HTML spec snapshots instead of WHATWG Review drafts 22:10:58 ... Features anticipated to be included, WebTransport, WebAssembly, Push API 22:11:08 ... WT doesn't have full support yet 22:12:03 ... You can identify which features are included, downstream groups typically reference a year or two earlier 22:12:04 s/Peter_Thatchr/Peter_Thatcher/ 22:12:11 rrsagent, draft minutes 22:12:12 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-me-minutes.html kaz 22:12:20 ... You can watch the GitHub or comment 22:12:21 q? 22:13:04 Chris: What sources of information do you use to decide what to include? 22:13:28 John: Start with MDN and caniuse, validate with WPT, which we rely heavily on 22:13:33 i|One of the groups|-> https://w3c.github.io/webmediaapi/ Web Media Snapshot 2024| 22:13:39 rrsagent, draft minutes 22:13:40 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-me-minutes.html kaz 22:14:34 Chris: Some inconsistencies in WPTs and coverage. Does it lead to interop issues? 22:14:43 John: Sometimes the tests go in before the features land 22:15:20 ... I'll check why the tests are failing, are they a newer version of the spec? There's not an easy way to know, for a given spec, what is the state of the spec? 22:15:49 .. That's the majority of the work, determining where the tests fall, e.g., the CSS tests getting updated 22:16:33 q- 22:16:39 MarkV: I always thought that doing the work to find areas of incompatibility really points out problems developers have to face 22:16:57 ... It seems there's a missing process, to take these exceptions to interop as a to-do list and drive solving them 22:17:05 q+ 22:17:11 ... I don't know if that's ever happened. Would that make sense? 22:17:14 ack tidoust 22:17:40 i|One of the groups|-> https://github.com/cta-wave/WMAS WMAS| 22:17:45 rrsagent, draft minutes 22:17:46 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-me-minutes.html kaz 22:17:52 Francois: It is something we should do. There's an ongoing activity that's relevant, in the WebDX CG and the notion of Baseline, which appears in MDN and caniuse 22:18:17 ... We have fine-grained information, but doesn't give you high level information. The web features projcet is about finding the middle ground 22:18:41 ... A mapping of features that make sense to web developers, and an interoperability score, which can detect anomalies 22:18:51 i|We have fine|-> https://www.w3.org/groups/cg/webdx/ WebDX CG| 22:18:51 rrsagent, draft minutes 22:18:52 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-me-minutes.html kaz 22:19:06 ... This mappnig exercies is ongoing, Google is investing resources in the CG. By end of 2024 all feature will have been mapped 22:19:23 ... It's onging as new features will be added. 22:21:02 Chris: The browsers run annual Interop events, we could promote certain areas to be looked at? 22:21:18 q? 22:21:29 i|We have fine|-> https://github.com/web-platform-dx/baseline-status baseline-status| 22:21:31 rrsagent, draft minutes 22:21:32 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-me-minutes.html kaz 22:22:26 Chris: What holds ATSC and HbbTV back from using more recent WMAS snapshots? 22:22:43 markvickers has joined #me 22:23:04 John: The specs could end up in certain regulations, in certain countries. They want to give manufacturers time to catch up. So being behind allows manufactures time to be up to date 22:23:17 ... In practice I find most devices are up to date 22:23:20 q? 22:24:00 Chris: You seem to be doing much of the work. Do you need help? 22:24:38 John: Flagging tests from updated specs. Future considerations. some suggestions from HbbTV for WASM 22:24:56 ... If you see we've missed something, we welcome those updates, that would be helpful 22:24:58 q? 22:25:05 q+ 22:25:39 q- 22:25:39 Kaz: Given your snapshot documet includes WebRTC, Web Sockets, you might be interested in MoQ breakout on Wednesday 22:25:48 q+ to ask how much this snapshot influences browser implementers 22:25:49 ... WebCodecs and WebTransport 22:26:52 Nigel: Subtitles and captions, the core requirements needed to implement a JS renderer are met, but there's nothing in the snapshot that says browsers should play back TTML or IMSC, as expected 22:27:14 ... How much are browsers influenced by the snapshot? Do they use as motivation for interop? 22:27:58 John: Haven't seen the main browsers looking for those things. I have seen feedback from WebKit and WPE. We hope the future considerations section will help push things 22:28:07 ... It's more on the CE side than the browsers 22:28:18 rrsagent, draft minutes 22:28:19 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-me-minutes.html kaz 22:29:09 Nigel: Successfully passing tests or running 3rd party libraries, e.g., dash.js or hls.js, imsc.js. If you had a stack that couldn't run that, it would be a problem 22:29:26 ... Have you looked at testing not just what's in the browsers, but these 3P libraries? 22:29:48 John: Not yet. Want a suitable way to test that accurately. 22:30:30 Chris: Could do using the DPCTF tests and observation framework, to test end to end 22:31:08 Louay: Could extend the OF to check subtitles are properly rendered in the right position and right time 22:31:08 s/3P/3rd-party/ 22:31:22 ... Need to do it in an automatic way. For video it's easier, so would need to come up with a solution for subtitles 22:31:56 i|Could do using the DP|-> https://github.com/cta-wave/dpctf-tests DPCTF tests| 22:31:59 rrsagent, draft minutes 22:32:01 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-me-minutes.html kaz 22:32:25 Topic: Originator Profile 22:33:17 -> https://originator-profile.org/en-US/about/ Originator Profile Web site 22:33:18 Michiko: The issue is: is the info I'm being shown correct? Declaration from the originator that the content is correct 22:33:33 ... Show that Information has not been tampered 22:33:46 ... we use cryptographic techniques. Implementation has begun this year 22:33:58 ... Local goverments using this in 2024 22:34:23 ... We have a breakout on Wednesday. We want to share the challenges and how to discuss. We start at 8:30 22:34:54 This appears to be the event: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2da8028a-367a-4ddd-a43c-f821d04bbc0c/ 22:35:20 -> https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2da8028a-367a-4ddd-a43c-f821d04bbc0c/ Brreakout on Trust the Origin, Trust the Content - Originator Profil (Catalina 2) 22:35:31 Topic: Media Content Metadata Japanese CG update 22:36:08 Endo: I'm from NHK, grateful to participate, I was remote at last TPAC 22:36:23 i|I'm|[ sides tbd@@@ ]| 22:36:33 ... I'll introduce our recent activities on interoperability of metadata for media content 22:37:01 ... The mission of the CG is to improve metadata interop and promote media content distribution across industries 22:37:07 ... Focuses on actual demand across industry 22:37:18 -> https://www.w3.org/community/mcm-jp/ MCM-JP CG home page 22:37:25 ... The group is not trying to create a new metadata specification 22:37:35 ... We have 41 participants from 19 companies participating 22:37:42 ... Slide 3 22:37:57 ... The focus on interoperability of metadata related to media content 22:38:23 ... Two parts: between participants that belong to the media industry. Then between media industry and non-media content industry 22:38:25 kazho has joined #me 22:38:36 ... Each has its own organisations and specifications 22:38:53 ... We won't work on a single protocol. Explore potential interop 22:39:16 ... One goal is for various operators to use the case studies to develop a variety of servcies that use media content 22:39:20 ... Slide 4 22:39:22 -> https://github.com/w3c-cg/mcm-jp MCM-JP GitHub page 22:39:26 ... We held 3 online meetings 22:39:47 ... We received case studies from various industries 22:40:08 ... Slide 5 22:40:23 okin has joined #me 22:40:37 ... This case study is from the publishing industry. Linking media content, e.g., an online dictionary 22:40:52 ... Appropriate metadata for each industry 22:40:56 ... Slide 6 22:41:21 ... TV programme metadata are used for measurement of effectiveness of sales promotion 22:41:43 ... It demonstrates the potential of increasing the value of media content, across industry 22:42:10 ... Co-creation of use cases is expected. Unfortunately there isn't a widely used specification for TV programmes 22:42:28 ... Slide 7 22:42:49 ... Some protypes for validating interop between publishing and broadcast 22:42:55 ... NHK made two prototypes 22:43:09 ... The first is where ePub content recommends a TV program 22:43:19 ... The second is where TV recommends ePub content 22:43:58 ... The prototypes were implemented based on existing specs like ePub for eBooks (W3C standard). and the Hybridcast spec in Japan, with existing metadata 22:44:15 ... Some use cases can already be realised by combining knowledge from multiple industries 22:44:36 ... We plan to increase the case studies and publish a CG report next years 22:45:08 ... We want to contribute to MEIG by sharing the progress and results. Also contribute to W3C through the Publishing BC and Smart Cities IG 22:45:18 q? 22:45:29 q- 22:45:31 q+ 22:45:59 cpn: making good progress 22:46:12 s/cpn: making good progress// 22:46:27 Chris: Any indications of requirements coming from the use cases already considered? 22:47:16 Endo: Currently we don't find any technical specification needs, existing specifications are developed all over the world, and they work well 22:47:18 q? 22:48:05 ... But only one specification cannot be realised currently. We found that multiple specifications and knowledge can be needed. to cover it limits the spread in their own industry 22:48:33 ... So each operator in each industry should share knowledge for the other industry members 22:49:14 q? 22:49:50 ... Common rules can be identified. The CG would like to share data exchange examples, not technical specifications but things necessary for actual usage of metadata 22:49:54 ack k 22:50:25 Kaz: I have attended their group meetings. They have started to clarify current practices and best practices, and pain points and potential requirements for new spec work 22:50:38 ... Next steps could include documenting those best practices 22:51:12 Chris: In your use case, as with the publishing, I'm used to something like Amazon X-Ray, where it can 22:51:28 .. show you the related characters or other things to what you are watching. 22:51:46 .. The Amazon ecosystem has a lot of metadata about things and objects. 22:52:03 .. It make me wonder if we need consistent identifiers for products, 22:52:12 .. or is it okay just to point to different vendors. 22:52:23 .. Some kind of service that can resolve an identifier and take you to an outlet. 22:52:43 Kaz: Could use DID in additon to existing ISBN codes or similar 22:53:06 ... Discussion should include what kinds of identifiers to use 22:53:20 Nigel: Companies like GS1 do product identifiers 22:54:21 Kaz: the MCM-JP CG should organize a survey on IDs including GS1's work 22:54:33 i/the M/scribenick: kaz/ 22:54:37 scribenick: cpn 22:55:46 q+ 22:56:09 Endo: Existing identity systems are provided, I think this effort identifying a technical lack, schema.org or IMDB. From 20 years ago, there's a metadata format, it's used in DVB-I 22:56:34 ... It's a nice format, but other industries cannot adapt easily these existing formats 22:57:09 ... We're hopeful for the near future. Other features more common specs can be developed 22:57:11 q? 22:57:59 Kaz: Previous work, like TV Anytime, as Nigel just mentioned should be included in the document 22:58:01 ack k 22:58:42 Endo: Yes. I explain these efforts in Europe to those in Japan, and we collect outputs from them 22:59:02 q+ 22:59:24 ... We plan to publish the CG report. It contains exsting ID systems and metadata. Case studies for existing specs, IMDB, TV Anytime 23:00:01 Kaz: Another comment for this CG - even though it's a Japanese group, they'd like to collaborate with MEIG and others, so your input and comments are welcome 23:00:06 ack k 23:00:33 Endo: We plan to discuss business related case studies in the CG, and discuss technical issues and further specs in MEIG or other groups 23:00:49 Chris: Does the group meet at TPAC? 23:01:14 Endo: No, only online events 23:02:12 Chris: We look forward to the CG report and taking the work forward, when you're ready 23:03:06 [ MEIG Meeting on Monday adjourned; continue discussion during our monthly calls ] 23:03:22 rrsagent, draft minutes 23:03:24 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-me-minutes.html kaz 23:04:22 shiestyle has joined #me 23:05:14 shiestyle has joined #me 23:11:56 shiestyl_ has joined #me 23:15:43 shiestyle has joined #me 23:16:50 nigel has joined #me 23:23:44 AramZS has joined #me 23:36:15 JohnRiv_ has joined #me 23:47:00 nigel has joined #me 23:49:23 nigel has joined #me 23:54:36 kaz has joined #me