14:01:21 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot-td
14:01:25 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/09/18-wot-td-irc
14:01:28 <kaz> meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF - Slot 1
14:01:31 <kaz> chair: Ege
14:01:43 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan, Jan_Romann
14:02:26 <kaz> agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#September_18-19%2C_2024
14:03:13 <kaz> present+ Mahda_Noura, Kunihiko_Toumura
14:03:50 <Tomo> Tomo has joined #wot-td
14:06:36 <luca_barbato> luca_barbato has joined #wot-td
14:06:56 <kaz> present+ Luca_Barbato
14:07:34 <JKRhb> scribenick: JKRhb
14:07:50 <JKRhb> topic: Agenda Review
14:08:21 <JKRhb> ek: (picks a scribe from the list)
14:08:49 <JKRhb> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:08:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/18-wot-td-minutes.html JKRhb
14:08:54 <JKRhb> rrsagent, make log public
14:09:08 <JKRhb> ... today, we will be talking about the TPAC planning and the use case process
14:09:15 <JKRhb> ... and a little bit about the breakouts
14:09:18 <JKRhb> ... but not too much
14:09:30 <JKRhb> ... then there will be a little report on the toolchain and some other things
14:09:39 <JKRhb> ... but expect more discussion about the TPAC
14:09:44 <JKRhb> topic: Minutes Review
14:09:58 <JKRhb> ek: With that out of the way, we can talk about the minutes from last week
14:10:06 <JKRhb> ... everyone should have received the link
14:10:11 <JKRhb> ... I will go through them slowly
14:10:21 <JKRhb> ... let me know if anyone is concerned about anything here
14:10:28 <JKRhb> ... (scrolls through the minutes)
14:10:36 <EgeKorkan> q?
14:10:37 <kaz> i|With that|-> https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-td-minutes.html Sep-11|
14:10:43 <JKRhb> ... okay, it seems it was a very short meeting, are there any remarks?
14:10:51 <JKRhb> ... not seeing any, we can approve the minutes
14:10:54 <kaz> agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#September_18-19%2C_2024
14:10:56 <JKRhb> Minutes are approved
14:11:02 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
14:11:05 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:11:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/18-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:11:25 <JKRhb> ek: Regarding the agenda, tomorrow we will look more at tooling and refactoring aspects
14:11:31 <JKRhb> ... (updates the wiki)
14:11:31 <mjk> q?
14:11:36 <JKRhb> topic: TPAC
14:11:39 <EgeKorkan> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Wiki_for_F2F_2024_planning
14:11:46 <JKRhb> ek: So, let's go to the TPAC wiki
14:11:52 <JKRhb> ... I pasted the link
14:12:05 <JKRhb> ...we are focusing on the Thing Descriptiong, Profile, and Binding aspect today
14:12:28 <JKRhb> ... what we discussed in the use case call today is that we are going to discuss this with Michael McCool as well
14:12:28 <kaz> present+ Daniel_Peintner, Michael_Koster, Tomoaki_Mizushima
14:12:58 <JKRhb> ... (has some technical difficulties for a moment)
14:13:26 <kaz> s|https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Wiki_for_F2F_2024_planning|-> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Wiki_for_F2F_2024_planning TPAC 2024 WoT wiki|
14:13:29 <JKRhb> ... this was something that Daniel and Jan have done so far
14:13:31 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:13:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/18-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:13:39 <JKRhb> ... could only look at it yesterday
14:13:49 <JKRhb> ... so the point is that there are some improvements needed for the use case template
14:13:59 <kaz> q+
14:14:15 <kaz> q
14:14:15 <JKRhb> ... some aspects are a bit too technical
14:14:18 <kaz> q-
14:14:48 <JKRhb> ... this was also mentioned by McCool, we need to improve the template a bit, we need to get to the problem faster
14:15:17 <JKRhb> ... the introduction needs to give examples, but they need to be non-technical
14:15:38 <kaz> i|this was|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/2039 TD Issue 2039 - Using the New Use Case Template and Gathering Experience|
14:15:48 <JKRhb> ... both use case introduction given in the issue are a bit too technical
14:16:23 <JKRhb> ... they should be more like "As a TD developer I want device that is operating securely"
14:16:32 <kaz> q+
14:16:34 <JKRhb> ... needs to be closer to actual applications
14:17:02 <JKRhb> ... during TPAC, Michael McCool will give these examples but will reword them
14:17:36 <JKRhb> kaz: Agree, not objecting to Daniel's template submission, but we need to differentiate feature requests from use cases
14:17:41 <dape> q+
14:17:52 <kaz> ack k
14:18:04 <JKRhb> ... therefore, we should have use case descriptions as Markdown files and then give detailed feedback
14:18:14 <kaz> s/submission/submission itself/
14:18:30 <JKRhb> ek: Agree, also Daniel did nothing work, valuable to have the description here
14:18:44 <JKRhb> dp: I think there is a very simple use case description
14:19:04 <JKRhb> ... I have something like Phillips Hue and want to access the data
14:19:29 <JKRhb> ... not sure if that needs be put in another bucket, but that is what I meant
14:19:38 <JKRhb> ek: Same thing goes for the example from Jan
14:19:42 <mjk> q?
14:19:43 <JKRhb> ... pretty simple use case
14:19:51 <dape> ack dape
14:19:57 <JKRhb> ... we are trying to document the reason why we have a certain feature
14:20:25 <JKRhb> ... the fact that the features are so simple makes you question sometimes whether you actually need to document it
14:20:50 <EgeKorkan> q?
14:21:03 <JKRhb> ... I am a bit unsure how to turn these into use cases without doing "dogfooding"
14:21:44 <kaz> q+
14:23:02 <JKRhb> ek: I also wondering how to guide people towards user stories
14:23:19 <JKRhb> ... personas is also something that Michael McCool will use
14:23:52 <JKRhb> ... (shows McCool's TPAC presentation)
14:24:13 <JKRhb> i|I also wondering how to guide people towards user stories|@@@|
14:25:05 <JKRhb> kaz: Maybe if we could clarify feature requests and solution proposals that would be nice, but maybe we should not dive into the requirements too deeply for now and focus more on roles
14:25:25 <JKRhb> ... maybe it would be better what to be described in the solution proposal section
14:25:41 <JKRhb> ... not too technical, but more what to be expected from the submitter
14:25:56 <JKRhb> ek: Solution Proposal and expectations are optional in the template
14:26:14 <JKRhb> ... so this is more for people who already know how to solve the problem
14:26:53 <JKRhb> kaz: Maybe we can ask people to give more information regarding the overall use case description and focus less on the solution proposal
14:27:21 <JKRhb> ... then at a later stage a concrete solution proposal could be given
14:27:50 <JKRhb> ... but initially, the introductory sections and the problem statement should be more detailed
14:28:34 <JKRhb> JKRhb has joined #wot-td
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14:28:47 <JKRhb> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:28:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/18-wot-td-minutes.html JKRhb
14:28:54 <mjk> q?
14:28:54 <JKRhb> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:28:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/18-wot-td-minutes.html JKRhb
14:29:00 <kaz> ack k
14:29:02 <kaz> present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi
14:29:05 <JKRhb> ... maybe we need some more guidelines to describe this template
14:29:08 <EgeKorkan> q>
14:29:10 <EgeKorkan> q?
14:29:46 <JKRhb> s/@@@/jr: I think I also focused a bit too much on the technical aspect, maybe there could be more guidance on providing user stories etc
14:30:02 <JKRhb> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:30:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/18-wot-td-minutes.html JKRhb
14:30:09 <luca_barbato> q+
14:31:06 <JKRhb> ek: Luca, we should meet with Michael to do some concrete planning
14:31:49 <JKRhb> ek: We are preparing some slides for the breakout reports
14:32:08 <kaz> i|We are|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/2039#issuecomment-2358635551 Ege's comments|
14:32:13 <kaz> s/Michael/McCool/
14:32:22 <JKRhb> ... JSON-LD is rechartering by the way to also support CBOR and YAML
14:32:27 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:32:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/18-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:32:39 <JKRhb> ... so this would mean that we could support more formats out-of-the-box
14:33:05 <JKRhb> ... (adds CBOR-LD, YAML-LD breakout to the wiki)
14:33:13 <JKRhb> ... with that, I think we are fine for TPAC
14:33:28 <JKRhb> ... Michael Koster, was that everything for the TPAC prep?
14:33:34 <JKRhb> mk: I think so
14:33:40 <kaz> i|TPAC 2024 WoT wiki|subtopic: Use Cases and Requirements extraction|
14:33:47 <JKRhb> ... since we also simplified it a bit and are not doing profile
14:34:01 <JKRhb> topic: TD
14:34:04 <kaz> i|We are preparing|subtopic: Breakout reports|
14:34:11 <JKRhb> subtopic: Toolchain Discussion
14:34:30 <JKRhb> ek: Over the course of the last months there has been a lot of work from Mahda and Luca
14:34:42 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:34:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/18-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:34:50 <JKRhb> ... there is now a package manager that simplifies working with Python
14:34:54 <kaz> s/q>//
14:35:03 <JKRhb> ... better CLI, creation of python package
14:35:38 <JKRhb> ... there are also now post-processors that take care of some issues regarding JSON Schema, the JSON-LD context etc
14:36:15 <JKRhb> ... eventually, they will be upstreamed to the LinkMl project, to have these features natively
14:36:23 <JKRhb> ... some keywords are now reserved
14:36:37 <JKRhb> ... the README has also been improved, detailing our vision
14:36:44 <JKRhb> ... and how to use everything
14:36:53 <JKRhb> ... Mahda, do you have something to add?
14:37:03 <JKRhb> mn: No, it was quite clear, thanks
14:37:39 <JKRhb> ek: Something I forgot: We meet every Tuesday at 14:30 CET (which is like the second half of the main call) now
14:37:58 <JKRhb> subtopic: Refactoring
14:38:07 <JKRhb> ek: I did an analysis before my holidays
14:38:11 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:38:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/18-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:38:18 <JKRhb> ... maybe some have already seen the comment
14:38:29 <EgeKorkan> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1259
14:38:38 <JKRhb> ... so one part of the refactoring is that there is going to be a registry that will be linked from the TD spec
14:38:53 <JKRhb> ...we were also discussing removing the HTTP binding as a default
14:39:02 <JKRhb> ... in the beginning, there was support for that
14:39:07 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:39:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/18-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:39:22 <JKRhb> ... in my analysis, I found a couple of things that we need to discuss
14:39:51 <JKRhb> ... for example, we would need to remove the HTTP binding from the TD context, which would be a breaking change
14:40:00 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1259|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1259 TD Issue 1259 - Consider removing section 8.3.1 Protocol Binding based on HTTP in version 1.1|
14:40:02 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:40:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/18-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:40:10 <JKRhb> ... there are also a number of defaults
14:40:43 <JKRhb> ... for example, the method names have defaults, I prefer the approach in the binding that gives defaults for certain scenarios
14:41:25 <JKRhb> ... there are other aspects, like sequence diagrams in the binding and the TD documet has an assertion regarding the HTTP binding
14:41:38 <EgeKorkan> q?
14:41:41 <kaz> -> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#protocol-bindings TD spec - 8.3.1 Protocol Binding Templates
14:41:55 <JKRhb> ... I think only the first point really needs discussion, the other ones should be quite straightforward
14:42:14 <JKRhb> ... I guess after TPAC, there should be some work happening here to get rid of this in the TD spec
14:42:41 <JKRhb> subtopic: JSON Schema VersionInfo Errata
14:42:56 <JKRhb> ek: Mahda opened this issue, where Cristiano and Jan also commented so far
14:43:06 <JKRhb> ... this counts as an errata
14:43:25 <JKRhb> ... there is also a PR already, that will fix it, but we still need to add the errata
14:43:48 <JKRhb> ... this is an opportuity to test out our errata management policy
14:43:57 <JKRhb> ...we passed in the main call three months ago
14:44:20 <kaz> i|Mahda|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/2012 TD Issue 2012 - Errata Management Implementation|
14:44:21 <JKRhb> ... I created a pull request that details the process of how to add a errata for a document
14:44:43 <JKRhb> ... so in the case of this PR, we would decide that this is indeed an errata and we would a label
14:44:53 <JKRhb> ... which would be added to an issue
14:44:55 <kaz> i|there is also|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/2049 TD PR 2049 - Errata Management Update|
14:44:56 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:44:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/18-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:45:12 <JKRhb> ... that issue needs a PR with the fix which will get another label
14:45:24 <JKRhb> ... then the PR can be merged after an official task force resolution
14:45:29 <EgeKorkan> q?
14:45:30 <kaz> q+
14:45:33 <EgeKorkan> ack l
14:45:36 <dape> q+
14:45:43 <JKRhb> ... does anyone have opinions on the Erra Mangement Update PR?
14:45:54 <JKRhb> kaz: We can quickly go through the changes
14:46:11 <JKRhb> ... if it is okay for the TF, we can merge this and report it back to the main call
14:46:27 <JKRhb> ek: Yeah, I will quickly show the rendered version of the errata report
14:46:56 <JKRhb> dp: I was wondering if we need the same fix for the other files as well
14:47:04 <dape> ack dape
14:47:16 <kaz> q-
14:47:23 <JKRhb> ek: Technically, it should not have an impact on other files
14:47:25 <EgeKorkan> q+ Mahda
14:47:47 <JKRhb> mn: I think we also need to fix the ontology
14:48:00 <cris> cris has joined #wot-td
14:48:03 <JKRhb> ... currently, there is still an issue with the toolchain, however
14:48:38 <JKRhb> ... as this keyword is defined twice and we would only need to define it in one place and then reference it
14:48:53 <JKRhb> ... I am not sure if we can make that change now or whether it will break things if we do so
14:49:15 <JKRhb> ek: (summarises the discussion in a comment on the issue)
14:49:26 <JKRhb> ... technically, that would probably need another errata
14:49:46 <JKRhb> ... (shows the errata policy again)
14:50:05 <EgeKorkan> q?
14:50:06 <kaz> q+
14:50:08 <EgeKorkan> ack m
14:50:12 <JKRhb> ... there has only be one update, the version that is mentioned in the text (changed from 1.0 to 1.1)
14:50:37 <JKRhb> kaz: Quite minor maybe, but it might be better to say "TD Taskforce of the WoT Working Group"
14:50:49 <JKRhb> ... maybe we can shorten it at some later point
14:51:15 <JKRhb> ... and use the longer name for now
14:51:27 <JKRhb> ek: I fixed it at the top
14:51:49 <JKRhb> kaz: At the bottom, there is also an author mentioned, that should also say "Working Group"
14:52:00 <JKRhb> ... (notices that it is his name that is written there)
14:52:06 <JKRhb> ... fine to put my name there
14:52:16 <JKRhb> ... but the working group should also be mentioned there, probably
14:52:28 <JKRhb> ... probably needs a bigger discussion, though
14:52:39 <JKRhb> ... but fine for now, as the text is generated based on our general policy
14:52:41 <EgeKorkan> q?
14:53:04 <JKRhb> ek: Fine by me, I will update the text with the usage of the task force and make sure that it is aligned
14:53:57 <kaz> -> https://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://raw.githubusercontent.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/e2edf74806d1d14b72ca5e9306c97edd5392047c/errata.html HTML Preview
14:54:12 <kaz> s/Preview/Preview for the proposed errata.html/
14:54:17 <kaz> q-
14:54:19 <JKRhb> ... alright, I will do this
14:54:28 <kaz> q+
14:54:33 <JKRhb> ... and we can merge this. Afterward I will also update the labels
14:55:16 <JKRhb> kaz: By the way: I added the URL (?) to the pull request and after merging we can also use the updated URL
14:55:54 <EgeKorkan> q?
14:55:55 <EgeKorkan> ack k
14:55:56 <JKRhb> ek: Today, we are done then, tomorrow we will talk about the initial connection
14:55:57 <kaz> q-
14:56:01 <JKRhb> topic: AOB
14:56:15 <JKRhb> No other business, meeting is closed
14:56:18 <JKRhb> [adjourned]
14:57:12 <kaz> s/By the way: I added the URL (?) to the pull request and after merging we can also use the updated URL/By the way, I've added the URL for HTML Preview for PR 2049 as above. If you'd add any more changes to the PR, we can use sn updated URL for HTML Preview./
14:57:46 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:57:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/18-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
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