IRC log of wot-td on 2024-09-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:01:21 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #wot-td

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/09/18-wot-td-irc

14:01:28 [kaz]

meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF - Slot 1

14:01:31 [kaz]

chair: Ege

14:01:43 [kaz]

present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan, Jan_Romann

14:02:26 [kaz]

agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#September_18-19%2C_2024

14:03:13 [kaz]

present+ Mahda_Noura, Kunihiko_Toumura

14:03:50 [Tomo]

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14:06:36 [luca_barbato]

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14:06:56 [kaz]

present+ Luca_Barbato

14:07:34 [JKRhb]

scribenick: JKRhb

14:07:50 [JKRhb]

topic: Agenda Review

14:08:21 [JKRhb]

ek: (picks a scribe from the list)

14:08:49 [JKRhb]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:08:50 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/18-wot-td-minutes.html JKRhb

14:08:54 [JKRhb]

rrsagent, make log public

14:09:08 [JKRhb]

... today, we will be talking about the TPAC planning and the use case process

14:09:15 [JKRhb]

... and a little bit about the breakouts

14:09:18 [JKRhb]

... but not too much

14:09:30 [JKRhb]

... then there will be a little report on the toolchain and some other things

14:09:39 [JKRhb]

... but expect more discussion about the TPAC

14:09:44 [JKRhb]

topic: Minutes Review

14:09:58 [JKRhb]

ek: With that out of the way, we can talk about the minutes from last week

14:10:06 [JKRhb]

... everyone should have received the link

14:10:11 [JKRhb]

... I will go through them slowly

14:10:21 [JKRhb]

... let me know if anyone is concerned about anything here

14:10:28 [JKRhb]

... (scrolls through the minutes)

14:10:36 [EgeKorkan]

q?

14:10:37 [kaz]

i|With that|-> https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-td-minutes.html Sep-11|

14:10:43 [JKRhb]

... okay, it seems it was a very short meeting, are there any remarks?

14:10:51 [JKRhb]

... not seeing any, we can approve the minutes

14:10:54 [kaz]

agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#September_18-19%2C_2024

14:10:56 [JKRhb]

Minutes are approved

14:11:02 [kaz]

rrsagent, make log public

14:11:05 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:11:06 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/18-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:11:25 [JKRhb]

ek: Regarding the agenda, tomorrow we will look more at tooling and refactoring aspects

14:11:31 [JKRhb]

... (updates the wiki)

14:11:31 [mjk]

q?

14:11:36 [JKRhb]

topic: TPAC

14:11:39 [EgeKorkan]

https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Wiki_for_F2F_2024_planning

14:11:46 [JKRhb]

ek: So, let's go to the TPAC wiki

14:11:52 [JKRhb]

... I pasted the link

14:12:05 [JKRhb]

...we are focusing on the Thing Descriptiong, Profile, and Binding aspect today

14:12:28 [JKRhb]

... what we discussed in the use case call today is that we are going to discuss this with Michael McCool as well

14:12:28 [kaz]

present+ Daniel_Peintner, Michael_Koster, Tomoaki_Mizushima

14:12:58 [JKRhb]

... (has some technical difficulties for a moment)

14:13:26 [kaz]

s|https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Wiki_for_F2F_2024_planning|-">https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Wiki_for_F2F_2024_planning|-> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Wiki_for_F2F_2024_planning TPAC 2024 WoT wiki|

14:13:29 [JKRhb]

... this was something that Daniel and Jan have done so far

14:13:31 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:13:33 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/18-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:13:39 [JKRhb]

... could only look at it yesterday

14:13:49 [JKRhb]

... so the point is that there are some improvements needed for the use case template

14:13:59 [kaz]

q+

14:14:15 [kaz]

q

14:14:15 [JKRhb]

... some aspects are a bit too technical

14:14:18 [kaz]

q-

14:14:48 [JKRhb]

... this was also mentioned by McCool, we need to improve the template a bit, we need to get to the problem faster

14:15:17 [JKRhb]

... the introduction needs to give examples, but they need to be non-technical

14:15:38 [kaz]

i|this was|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/2039 TD Issue 2039 - Using the New Use Case Template and Gathering Experience|

14:15:48 [JKRhb]

... both use case introduction given in the issue are a bit too technical

14:16:23 [JKRhb]

... they should be more like "As a TD developer I want device that is operating securely"

14:16:32 [kaz]

q+

14:16:34 [JKRhb]

... needs to be closer to actual applications

14:17:02 [JKRhb]

... during TPAC, Michael McCool will give these examples but will reword them

14:17:36 [JKRhb]

kaz: Agree, not objecting to Daniel's template submission, but we need to differentiate feature requests from use cases

14:17:41 [dape]

q+

14:17:52 [kaz]

ack k

14:18:04 [JKRhb]

... therefore, we should have use case descriptions as Markdown files and then give detailed feedback

14:18:14 [kaz]

s/submission/submission itself/

14:18:30 [JKRhb]

ek: Agree, also Daniel did nothing work, valuable to have the description here

14:18:44 [JKRhb]

dp: I think there is a very simple use case description

14:19:04 [JKRhb]

... I have something like Phillips Hue and want to access the data

14:19:29 [JKRhb]

... not sure if that needs be put in another bucket, but that is what I meant

14:19:38 [JKRhb]

ek: Same thing goes for the example from Jan

14:19:42 [mjk]

q?

14:19:43 [JKRhb]

... pretty simple use case

14:19:51 [dape]

ack dape

14:19:57 [JKRhb]

... we are trying to document the reason why we have a certain feature

14:20:25 [JKRhb]

... the fact that the features are so simple makes you question sometimes whether you actually need to document it

14:20:50 [EgeKorkan]

q?

14:21:03 [JKRhb]

... I am a bit unsure how to turn these into use cases without doing "dogfooding"

14:21:44 [kaz]

q+

14:23:02 [JKRhb]

ek: I also wondering how to guide people towards user stories

14:23:19 [JKRhb]

... personas is also something that Michael McCool will use

14:23:52 [JKRhb]

... (shows McCool's TPAC presentation)

14:24:13 [JKRhb]

i|I also wondering how to guide people towards user stories|@@@|

14:25:05 [JKRhb]

kaz: Maybe if we could clarify feature requests and solution proposals that would be nice, but maybe we should not dive into the requirements too deeply for now and focus more on roles

14:25:25 [JKRhb]

... maybe it would be better what to be described in the solution proposal section

14:25:41 [JKRhb]

... not too technical, but more what to be expected from the submitter

14:25:56 [JKRhb]

ek: Solution Proposal and expectations are optional in the template

14:26:14 [JKRhb]

... so this is more for people who already know how to solve the problem

14:26:53 [JKRhb]

kaz: Maybe we can ask people to give more information regarding the overall use case description and focus less on the solution proposal

14:27:21 [JKRhb]

... then at a later stage a concrete solution proposal could be given

14:27:50 [JKRhb]

... but initially, the introductory sections and the problem statement should be more detailed

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rrsagent, draft minutes

14:28:48 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/18-wot-td-minutes.html JKRhb

14:28:54 [mjk]

q?

14:28:54 [JKRhb]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:28:55 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/18-wot-td-minutes.html JKRhb

14:29:00 [kaz]

ack k

14:29:02 [kaz]

present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi

14:29:05 [JKRhb]

... maybe we need some more guidelines to describe this template

14:29:08 [EgeKorkan]

q>

14:29:10 [EgeKorkan]

q?

14:29:46 [JKRhb]

s/@@@/jr: I think I also focused a bit too much on the technical aspect, maybe there could be more guidance on providing user stories etc

14:30:02 [JKRhb]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:30:03 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/18-wot-td-minutes.html JKRhb

14:30:09 [luca_barbato]

q+

14:31:06 [JKRhb]

ek: Luca, we should meet with Michael to do some concrete planning

14:31:49 [JKRhb]

ek: We are preparing some slides for the breakout reports

14:32:08 [kaz]

i|We are|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/2039#issuecomment-2358635551 Ege's comments|

14:32:13 [kaz]

s/Michael/McCool/

14:32:22 [JKRhb]

... JSON-LD is rechartering by the way to also support CBOR and YAML

14:32:27 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:32:28 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/18-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:32:39 [JKRhb]

... so this would mean that we could support more formats out-of-the-box

14:33:05 [JKRhb]

... (adds CBOR-LD, YAML-LD breakout to the wiki)

14:33:13 [JKRhb]

... with that, I think we are fine for TPAC

14:33:28 [JKRhb]

... Michael Koster, was that everything for the TPAC prep?

14:33:34 [JKRhb]

mk: I think so

14:33:40 [kaz]

i|TPAC 2024 WoT wiki|subtopic: Use Cases and Requirements extraction|

14:33:47 [JKRhb]

... since we also simplified it a bit and are not doing profile

14:34:01 [JKRhb]

topic: TD

14:34:04 [kaz]

i|We are preparing|subtopic: Breakout reports|

14:34:11 [JKRhb]

subtopic: Toolchain Discussion

14:34:30 [JKRhb]

ek: Over the course of the last months there has been a lot of work from Mahda and Luca

14:34:42 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:34:44 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/18-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:34:50 [JKRhb]

... there is now a package manager that simplifies working with Python

14:34:54 [kaz]

s/q>//

14:35:03 [JKRhb]

... better CLI, creation of python package

14:35:38 [JKRhb]

... there are also now post-processors that take care of some issues regarding JSON Schema, the JSON-LD context etc

14:36:15 [JKRhb]

... eventually, they will be upstreamed to the LinkMl project, to have these features natively

14:36:23 [JKRhb]

... some keywords are now reserved

14:36:37 [JKRhb]

... the README has also been improved, detailing our vision

14:36:44 [JKRhb]

... and how to use everything

14:36:53 [JKRhb]

... Mahda, do you have something to add?

14:37:03 [JKRhb]

mn: No, it was quite clear, thanks

14:37:39 [JKRhb]

ek: Something I forgot: We meet every Tuesday at 14:30 CET (which is like the second half of the main call) now

14:37:58 [JKRhb]

subtopic: Refactoring

14:38:07 [JKRhb]

ek: I did an analysis before my holidays

14:38:11 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:38:12 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/18-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:38:18 [JKRhb]

... maybe some have already seen the comment

14:38:29 [EgeKorkan]

https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1259

14:38:38 [JKRhb]

... so one part of the refactoring is that there is going to be a registry that will be linked from the TD spec

14:38:53 [JKRhb]

...we were also discussing removing the HTTP binding as a default

14:39:02 [JKRhb]

... in the beginning, there was support for that

14:39:07 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:39:08 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/18-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:39:22 [JKRhb]

... in my analysis, I found a couple of things that we need to discuss

14:39:51 [JKRhb]

... for example, we would need to remove the HTTP binding from the TD context, which would be a breaking change

14:40:00 [kaz]

s|https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1259|-">https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1259|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1259 TD Issue 1259 - Consider removing section 8.3.1 Protocol Binding based on HTTP in version 1.1|

14:40:02 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:40:03 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/18-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:40:10 [JKRhb]

... there are also a number of defaults

14:40:43 [JKRhb]

... for example, the method names have defaults, I prefer the approach in the binding that gives defaults for certain scenarios

14:41:25 [JKRhb]

... there are other aspects, like sequence diagrams in the binding and the TD documet has an assertion regarding the HTTP binding

14:41:38 [EgeKorkan]

q?

14:41:41 [kaz]

-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#protocol-bindings TD spec - 8.3.1 Protocol Binding Templates

14:41:55 [JKRhb]

... I think only the first point really needs discussion, the other ones should be quite straightforward

14:42:14 [JKRhb]

... I guess after TPAC, there should be some work happening here to get rid of this in the TD spec

14:42:41 [JKRhb]

subtopic: JSON Schema VersionInfo Errata

14:42:56 [JKRhb]

ek: Mahda opened this issue, where Cristiano and Jan also commented so far

14:43:06 [JKRhb]

... this counts as an errata

14:43:25 [JKRhb]

... there is also a PR already, that will fix it, but we still need to add the errata

14:43:48 [JKRhb]

... this is an opportuity to test out our errata management policy

14:43:57 [JKRhb]

...we passed in the main call three months ago

14:44:20 [kaz]

i|Mahda|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/2012 TD Issue 2012 - Errata Management Implementation|

14:44:21 [JKRhb]

... I created a pull request that details the process of how to add a errata for a document

14:44:43 [JKRhb]

... so in the case of this PR, we would decide that this is indeed an errata and we would a label

14:44:53 [JKRhb]

... which would be added to an issue

14:44:55 [kaz]

i|there is also|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/2049 TD PR 2049 - Errata Management Update|

14:44:56 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:44:57 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/18-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:45:12 [JKRhb]

... that issue needs a PR with the fix which will get another label

14:45:24 [JKRhb]

... then the PR can be merged after an official task force resolution

14:45:29 [EgeKorkan]

q?

14:45:30 [kaz]

q+

14:45:33 [EgeKorkan]

ack l

14:45:36 [dape]

q+

14:45:43 [JKRhb]

... does anyone have opinions on the Erra Mangement Update PR?

14:45:54 [JKRhb]

kaz: We can quickly go through the changes

14:46:11 [JKRhb]

... if it is okay for the TF, we can merge this and report it back to the main call

14:46:27 [JKRhb]

ek: Yeah, I will quickly show the rendered version of the errata report

14:46:56 [JKRhb]

dp: I was wondering if we need the same fix for the other files as well

14:47:04 [dape]

ack dape

14:47:16 [kaz]

q-

14:47:23 [JKRhb]

ek: Technically, it should not have an impact on other files

14:47:25 [EgeKorkan]

q+ Mahda

14:47:47 [JKRhb]

mn: I think we also need to fix the ontology

14:48:00 [cris]

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14:48:03 [JKRhb]

... currently, there is still an issue with the toolchain, however

14:48:38 [JKRhb]

... as this keyword is defined twice and we would only need to define it in one place and then reference it

14:48:53 [JKRhb]

... I am not sure if we can make that change now or whether it will break things if we do so

14:49:15 [JKRhb]

ek: (summarises the discussion in a comment on the issue)

14:49:26 [JKRhb]

... technically, that would probably need another errata

14:49:46 [JKRhb]

... (shows the errata policy again)

14:50:05 [EgeKorkan]

q?

14:50:06 [kaz]

q+

14:50:08 [EgeKorkan]

ack m

14:50:12 [JKRhb]

... there has only be one update, the version that is mentioned in the text (changed from 1.0 to 1.1)

14:50:37 [JKRhb]

kaz: Quite minor maybe, but it might be better to say "TD Taskforce of the WoT Working Group"

14:50:49 [JKRhb]

... maybe we can shorten it at some later point

14:51:15 [JKRhb]

... and use the longer name for now

14:51:27 [JKRhb]

ek: I fixed it at the top

14:51:49 [JKRhb]

kaz: At the bottom, there is also an author mentioned, that should also say "Working Group"

14:52:00 [JKRhb]

... (notices that it is his name that is written there)

14:52:06 [JKRhb]

... fine to put my name there

14:52:16 [JKRhb]

... but the working group should also be mentioned there, probably

14:52:28 [JKRhb]

... probably needs a bigger discussion, though

14:52:39 [JKRhb]

... but fine for now, as the text is generated based on our general policy

14:52:41 [EgeKorkan]

q?

14:53:04 [JKRhb]

ek: Fine by me, I will update the text with the usage of the task force and make sure that it is aligned

14:53:57 [kaz]

-> https://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://raw.githubusercontent.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/e2edf74806d1d14b72ca5e9306c97edd5392047c/errata.html HTML Preview

14:54:12 [kaz]

s/Preview/Preview for the proposed errata.html/

14:54:17 [kaz]

q-

14:54:19 [JKRhb]

... alright, I will do this

14:54:28 [kaz]

q+

14:54:33 [JKRhb]

... and we can merge this. Afterward I will also update the labels

14:55:16 [JKRhb]

kaz: By the way: I added the URL (?) to the pull request and after merging we can also use the updated URL

14:55:54 [EgeKorkan]

q?

14:55:55 [EgeKorkan]

ack k

14:55:56 [JKRhb]

ek: Today, we are done then, tomorrow we will talk about the initial connection

14:55:57 [kaz]

q-

14:56:01 [JKRhb]

topic: AOB

14:56:15 [JKRhb]

No other business, meeting is closed

14:56:18 [JKRhb]

[adjourned]

14:57:12 [kaz]

s/By the way: I added the URL (?) to the pull request and after merging we can also use the updated URL/By the way, I've added the URL for HTML Preview for PR 2049 as above. If you'd add any more changes to the PR, we can use sn updated URL for HTML Preview./

14:57:46 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:57:47 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/18-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

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