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16:53:05 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:53:06 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
16:53:06 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
16:53:06 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
16:53:06 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b57854a-65cb-421e-b9e0-f9a8da31f160/20240912T130000/
16:53:06 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:53:06 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3ZfD4lL
16:53:07 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3XnyQGd
16:53:09 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y
16:53:12 <agendabot> agenda+ -> TPAC planning https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/TPAC-2024-ARIA-Meetings#topics-to-schedule
16:53:15 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Table without table headers https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/562
16:53:17 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Make aria-relevant and ariaRelevant reflect https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2326
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17:00:57 <Francis_Storr> present+
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17:01:10 <Rahim> present+
17:01:20 <sarah> present+
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17:03:46 <pkra> present+
17:04:07 <StefanS> present+
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17:06:09 <giacomo-petri> present+
17:07:13 <smockle> present+
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17:07:54 <sarah> scribe: sarah
17:08:06 <sarah> zakim, take up first item
17:08:06 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up first item', sarah
17:08:08 <sarah> zakim, take up next item
17:08:09 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3ZfD4lL -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:08:17 <keithamus> present+
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17:08:25 <katez> present+
17:08:34 <sarah> jamesn: one new issue, focusability of elements with aria-disabled
17:08:47 <sarah> pkra: I think this can be closed, it was a question and was answered
17:09:09 <sarah> zakim, close this item
17:09:10 <Zakim> agendum 1 closed
17:09:10 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:09:10 <Zakim> 2. -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3XnyQGd [from agendabot]
17:09:23 <sarah> zakim, take up next item
17:09:23 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3XnyQGd -- taken up [from agendabot]
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17:09:46 <aardrian> +present
17:10:14 <sarah> jcraig: implementors have taken up a pretty strong stance that ARIA should stay an accessibility layer and not change mainstream functionality
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17:10:35 <sarah> jamesn: even with that, there are instances when it is useful to allow disabled things to become focusable
17:10:47 <sarah> jamesn: no new PRs
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17:10:59 <sarah> zakim, next item
17:10:59 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:11:05 <CurtBellew> present+
17:11:09 <sarah> jcraig: nothing new
17:11:23 <sarah> jcraig: if anything has been updated, let me know, otherwise we can move on
17:12:25 <sarah> jcraig: also worth mentioning, the WPT a11y interop group did resolve to bring Valerie's work into the scoring criteria for this year's interop investigation. She's been working on taking the old core AAM tests that were difficult to maintain, and making it more automated so we can get some more results long-term out of this. Really impressive
17:12:25 <sarah> work, called acacia, excited to see what comes of it
17:12:57 <sarah> spectranaut_: next topic is TPAC, I think we'll have a meeting with the browser tools and testing to talk about acacia and getting that landed. There are unresolved kinks and questions, would be great to have the WG in the meeting.
17:13:10 <sarah> jamesn: would it be nice to demo to the group what acacia can do in the empty slot?
17:13:14 <sarah> spectranaut_: we can do that
17:13:19 <sarah> zakim, next item
17:13:19 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> TPAC planning https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/TPAC-2024-ARIA-Meetings#topics-to-schedule -- taken up [from agendabot]
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17:13:42 <sarah> jcraig: I've had good results demo'ing things to overlapping groups
17:13:52 <sarah> jcraig: there are different types of questions that come from different groups as well
17:14:18 <sarah> jamesn: we have a wiki page with our proposed agenda for TPAC. We've put the topics into the various days and time slots, we have only one open slot that we can put acacia into, or we can have some other things
17:14:32 <sarah> jamesn: if you have any issues, let us know so we can make changes to this
17:14:48 <sarah> jamesn: we have two joint meetings, AGWG on thursday and APA on friday
17:14:51 <Rahim> q+
17:15:00 <sarah> jamesn: apparently the AGWG is to discuss WCAG 3 ARIA techniques, which is news to us
17:15:41 <sarah> matt: apparently the APA group expect me to drive that one, it's related to having other content that's not currently part of APG better supported or integrated into APG. Things like the media accessibility, MAU
17:16:37 <sarah> matt: and Using ARIA, which we've already agreed to take on. I don't know how meaty this can be, and I think the bigger challenge is that there are a lot of good ideas, or potentially good ideas. We don't have people to do the work. So I don't know how fruitful this can be, unless there are any people who are willing to work on these things. I'm
17:16:37 <sarah> not confident that we need it.
17:16:46 <sarah> jamesn: it's also on friday afternoon, so everyone will be wiped out
17:16:57 <sarah> matt: I'm leaning towards not having it if it's totally up to me
17:17:07 <jcraig> present+
17:17:25 <sarah> jamesn: I'll ask Janina if there's anything else to ask during that meeting. I'd be quite happy to not have that meeting on friday too
17:17:30 <jamesn> ack Rahim
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17:17:51 <sarah> Rahim: I had a question about the agenda setter and their role. Is their role to lead an effective session, outcomes, should we make a deck -- what should agenda setters be doing?
17:18:53 <sarah> jamesn: I'm not going to tell you how to do it, having a deck would be helpful, but it doesn't have to be a presentation. Having something written down that's not just a topic, and having specific things to talk about and questions that need answering would be helpful. You can do that however you like. I assume there will be the ability to present
17:18:53 <sarah> something on a screen in the room, and there will be remote participants as well.\\
17:19:08 <sarah> jamesn: there's no formal way to do this, but having something is useful to prevent going in circles
17:19:11 <scott> present+
17:19:23 <sarah> jamesn: we scribe the same way, there will be a rotating scribe, we'll ask most people to try to scribe at least one session
17:19:31 <sarah> jamesn: these are like normal meetings but more in depth and in the same room
17:19:45 <sarah> jamesn: think of it like a deep dive sessions, where the successful ones have a plan and an outcome
17:19:59 <sarah> jamesn: vs the ones where we talk around a topic without progressing it towards a conclusion
17:21:15 <sarah> jamesn: some information about where all the cool people talk to eachother
17:21:17 <sarah> zakim, next item
17:21:17 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> Table without table headers https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/562 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:21:56 <sarah> jamesn: this was filed, and I just want to know what our plan is for this. We have in the issue the code links to webkit's and blink's isDataTable implementation, and the gecko TableAccessible implementation
17:22:02 <sarah> jamesn: scott had a related issue
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17:22:52 <aaronlev> q+
17:22:56 <sarah> jamesn: I don't know if folks think this would be a good idea or not, but it would be nice to detail in words or in an algorithm what each of the implemetations are and we can look to see where they are common and where they differ. I think it would be nice if all browsers treated them the same. If every table in every browser was either a layout
17:22:56 <sarah> table or a data table the same way, that would be a positive
17:23:07 <sarah> jamesn: aaronlev is on the queue and is going to tell me I'm wrong
17:23:09 <sarah> aaronlev: you're right
17:23:15 <sarah> aaronlev: don't get used to it
17:23:39 <sarah> aaronlev: I talked to Brett-Lewis at Vispero, and they used to do it in there code, but  now they use a variable in our code that tells them what our guess is
17:24:08 <sarah> aaronlev: the algorithms are so similar, it shouldn't be hard to harmonize them. We need someone to go through the source code and harmonize them. You don't really need to know C++, and create a table
17:24:14 <sarah> jamesn: could ChatGPT do this?
17:24:14 <keithamus> q+
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17:24:18 <sarah> aaronlev: It could do it incorrectly
17:24:34 <sarah> aaronlev: we just need a volunteer to do this, I don't think we need to evaluate this in a big group
17:24:38 <sarah> keithamus: I volunteer as tribute
17:24:55 <sarah> aaronlev: if you have any questions about the code, you can ping me
17:25:04 <sarah> jamesn: you probably wrote most of it, right?
17:25:28 <sarah> aaronlev: I wrote the code in FF, then found the code in Chrome had been copied from Safari, which had been copied from FF. The same comment code was there
17:25:37 <sarah> jamesn: if we can get this in browsers and tests for this, that'd be awesome
17:25:44 <sarah> jcraig: and then the layout list reconciliation
17:25:52 <sarah> jamesn: that's going to be more c--
17:25:55 <sarah> jcraig: inside joke
17:26:15 <sarah> aaronlev: keithamus do you mind doing it as a google doc at first, and then turn it into a wiki? It'll just be easier to collaborate
17:26:26 <sarah> keithamus: OK, google doc with a table, enumerating similarities and differences?
17:26:47 <sarah> aaronlev: rows would be general rule, columns would be each browser, if they do it, and if they do it differently, then a column about why the rule is good or bad
17:27:00 <sarah> jamesn: can everyone who wants to collab on this use google docs?
17:27:14 <sarah> jamesn: sounds like we have progress, let's move on
17:27:15 <sarah> q?
17:27:16 <jamesn> ack keithamus
17:27:19 <jamesn> ack aaronlev
17:27:22 <sarah> zakim, next item
17:27:22 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> Make aria-relevant and ariaRelevant reflect https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2326 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:27:48 <sarah> jamesn: last one, I think this has been concluded, but I want to confirm because it's not the conclusion I expected
17:27:59 <sarah> jcraig: what I missed was that this is what implementations do anyway, so I approved it
17:28:03 <sarah> jamesn: so, no action needed?
17:28:07 <sarah> jcraig: just needs to be merged
17:28:20 <sarah> jamesn: need reviewers, I guess
17:28:22 <sarah> spectranaut_: you can add me
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17:28:43 <sarah> Rahim: (also volunteered)
17:29:07 <sarah> jamesn: no implementations needed, right
17:29:24 <sarah> jcraig: I think there might be a line needed in a WPT test, but I think so. That'd be easy to add anyway
17:29:28 <jamesn> agenda?
17:29:36 <sarah> jamesn: believe that's it for this week
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17:31:53 <sarah> rrsagent, make minutes
17:31:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/12-aria-minutes.html sarah
17:32:58 <sarah> zakim, end meeting
17:32:58 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Francis_Storr, Rahim, sarah, pkra, StefanS, giacomo-petri, smockle, keithamus, katez, present, CurtBellew, jcraig, scott
17:33:01 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:33:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/12-aria-minutes.html Zakim
17:33:08 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, sarah; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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