IRC log of wot-uc on 2024-09-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

10:55:23 [RRSAgent]

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-irc

10:55:31 [kaz]

meeting: WoT Use Cases

10:56:58 [Tomo]

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10:59:52 [kaz]

present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Tomoaki_Mizushima

11:01:08 [kaz]

agenda: https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/blob/main/TODO/20240911.md

11:02:18 [kaz]

present+ Jan_Romann

11:02:40 [kaz]

present+ Michael_McCool

11:02:49 [JKRhb]

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11:02:49 [kaz]

chair: Mizushima, McCool

11:03:00 [kaz]

regrets+ Ege

11:03:11 [kaz]

rrsagent, make log public

11:03:15 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

11:03:16 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz

11:06:24 [JKRhb]

scribenick: JKRhb

11:06:35 [kaz]

q+

11:06:42 [kaz]

q-

11:06:57 [JKRhb]

topic: Agenda Review

11:07:16 [JKRhb]

mz: (adds Jan's name to the scribe list)

11:07:40 [JKRhb]

... today's agenda will be about minutes review, use case template, and TPAC

11:07:45 [kaz]

q+

11:07:46 [JKRhb]

... any other topics?

11:07:53 [McCool]

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11:08:12 [JKRhb]

kaz: Just to make sure: Which item includes Michael McCools requirements?

11:08:27 [JKRhb]

mz: Probably under four or five

11:08:42 [JKRhb]

mm: Will talk about it in the context of TPAC

11:09:06 [JKRhb]

kaz: Which item will be our priority? Use case template or TPAC and requirements?

11:09:11 [JKRhb]

mz: All three

11:09:24 [JKRhb]

kaz: My point is the order in which we will handle all of these items

11:09:59 [JKRhb]

mz: I would like to delete the old use case template

11:10:04 [JKRhb]

... and change the name

11:10:21 [JKRhb]

kaz: If that is a quick item, then it's fine

11:10:39 [JKRhb]

mm: That's fine, and you are also just renaming the topic

11:10:43 [JKRhb]

topic: TPAC

11:10:59 [JKRhb]

s/topic: TPAC//

11:11:30 [JKRhb]

kaz: It's probably be best to give the moderation to Michael for the TPAC discussion

11:11:52 [JKRhb]

topic: TPAC

11:12:01 [JKRhb]

mm: (takes over the screen share)

11:12:14 [JKRhb]

... I assume we are going to the F2F planning

11:12:34 [JKRhb]

kaz: It's best if we first review the minutes

11:12:46 [JKRhb]

topic: Minutes Review

11:13:01 [JKRhb]

mm: (Goes over the minutes of the last meeting)

11:13:23 [kaz]

s/It's probably be best to/Regarding the item #4 TPAC and #5 Requirements, McCool mentioned those items to be handled at once, so would be better to/

11:13:32 [JKRhb]

... we adopted a resolution

11:13:41 [JKRhb]

... Kaz, is this a copy of the old resolution?

11:13:54 [JKRhb]

kaz: The old resolution was cited here

11:14:00 [JKRhb]

mm: That is not really clear here

11:14:09 [luca_barbato]

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11:14:11 [JKRhb]

kaz: I will add "previous" to make that more clear

11:14:21 [JKRhb]

mm: (continues the review)

11:14:33 [JKRhb]

... I don't see any issues, any objections to approving them?

11:14:36 [JKRhb]

Minutes are approved

11:14:43 [JKRhb]

topic: TPAC (continued)

11:14:48 [McCool]

https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Wiki_for_F2F_2024_planning

11:14:56 [JKRhb]

mm: Here is the link to the wiki

11:15:27 [JKRhb]

s/topic: TPAC (continued)/topic: Use Case Template/

11:15:38 [kaz]

s|https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Wiki_for_F2F_2024_planning||

11:15:44 [JKRhb]

kaz: Let's first discuss the use case template, as it will be quick

11:15:54 [JKRhb]

mz: (takes over the screen share again)

11:15:59 [kaz]

s|mm: Here is the link to the wiki||

11:16:04 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

11:16:05 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz

11:16:11 [JKRhb]

... this template will be for all the use case topics

11:16:24 [kaz]

present+ Luca_Barbato

11:16:39 [JKRhb]

... this PR renames the use case template filename, adding ".bak" add the end

11:16:58 [JKRhb]

... I first wanted to remove the file, but then I thought it would be better to keep it

11:16:58 [kaz]

q+

11:17:11 [JKRhb]

mm: That is fine, we already agreed to proceed that way

11:17:35 [JKRhb]

kaz: Renaming the file is fine, but you could also move it to a different directory

11:17:57 [JKRhb]

mm: Renaming it is fine for now, we can properly archive it later

11:18:16 [JKRhb]

kaz: We should document that in the README file

11:18:41 [JKRhb]

mm: We can merge the PR now and add a line to the README file later

11:19:02 [JKRhb]

mz: I would rather like to not move a separate directory (?)

11:19:22 [kaz]

q+

11:19:54 [JKRhb]

mm: Usually, we move things to an archive directory, for now renaming it is fine so that is does not show up as an issue template anymore

11:20:12 [JKRhb]

... moving it to an archive directory later can be done later

11:20:40 [JKRhb]

kaz: Does the template appear in the list of issue templates with the .bak file extension?

11:20:42 [kaz]

q-

11:20:43 [JKRhb]

mm: No

11:20:57 [JKRhb]

mz: Any other opinions? Then I would like to merge

11:20:59 [JKRhb]

Merged

11:21:03 [kaz]

s/Does/Would/

11:21:12 [JKRhb]

topic: TPAC

11:21:24 [JKRhb]

mm: (take over the screen share again)

11:21:34 [JKRhb]

... this is the TPAC agenda

11:21:49 [JKRhb]

... so we are discussion document refactoring and requirements

11:21:56 [kaz]

i/Any other/kaz: In that case, fine to merge./

11:22:04 [kaz]

i/In that/scribenick: kaz/

11:22:05 [JKRhb]

... I kind of think we should reorder the agenda items and discuss use cases first

11:22:14 [kaz]

i/Any other/scribenick: JKRhb/

11:22:19 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

11:22:21 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz

11:22:27 [JKRhb]

... to follow a better order, especially when it comes to architecture

11:22:43 [JKRhb]

... then we have a very small amount of time for use cases and requirements templates

11:22:53 [JKRhb]

... if we need more time, we can also expand the discussion

11:23:03 [JKRhb]

... for now, I would keep the discussion at 10 minutes each

11:23:04 [kaz]

i|take over|-> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Wiki_for_F2F_2024_planning TPAC 2024 WoT Wiki|

11:23:12 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

11:23:14 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz

11:23:29 [JKRhb]

... I am also thinking that if we need to, we keep also shrink the time for document refactoring and expand the time for use cases and requirements

11:23:40 [JKRhb]

... need to do some more work for preparing this, though

11:23:59 [JKRhb]

... we will probably also talk about this in today's TD call

11:24:17 [kaz]

i|Goes over the minutes|-> https://www.w3.org/2024/09/04-wot-uc-minutes.html Sep-4|

11:24:21 [McCool]

https://github.com/w3c/wot/tree/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-09-tpac

11:24:22 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

11:24:23 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz

11:24:29 [JKRhb]

... Mizushima-San, I hope you can also prepare some presentation material

11:24:40 [kaz]

s/more clear/clearer/

11:24:41 [Tomo]

q+

11:24:46 [JKRhb]

... I already have a template prepared on GitHub

11:25:16 [JKRhb]

... the file extension needs to be changed, though (from .potx to .ptx)

11:25:29 [kaz]

i|Let's first|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/pull/302 PR 302 - Rename WoT-UseCases-Template.yml to WoT-UseCases-Template.yml.bak|

11:25:30 [JKRhb]

... so if you download it, you need to rename it

11:25:52 [JKRhb]

mz: Yes, I think PowerPoint cannot open it at the moment

11:26:12 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

11:26:13 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz

11:26:20 [JKRhb]

mm: (renamed the file and adjusts the README file)

11:26:29 [JKRhb]

... anyway, that is the template, so please use it

11:26:33 [JKRhb]

... that's for TPAC

11:26:37 [JKRhb]

topic: Requirements

11:27:32 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

11:27:34 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz

11:27:48 [JKRhb]

mm: (shows his powerpoint slides

11:27:58 [JKRhb]

s/shows his powerpoint slides/shows his powerpoint slides)/

11:28:13 [kaz]

i|shows|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/issues/301 Issue 301 - Requirements requirements|

11:28:15 [JKRhb]

... most of this from last year, with some additions

11:28:25 [JKRhb]

... so we have the use cases that motivate certain requirements

11:28:40 [JKRhb]

... one use case might motivate one or more requirements

11:28:55 [JKRhb]

... then you have work items that satisfy requirements

11:29:16 [Tomo]

q+

11:29:34 [JKRhb]

... so when we add a new feature to our documents, we need to be able to trace it back to the use case that motivated it

11:29:53 [JKRhb]

... one thing that Ege mentioned ealier were user stories

11:30:08 [JKRhb]

... they are user-centric requirements to a certain degree

11:30:26 [kaz]

i|shows|-> @@@ McCool's slides TBD@@@|

11:30:27 [JKRhb]

... so you state "what" and "why", and the persona is "who"

11:30:30 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

11:30:31 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz

11:30:41 [JKRhb]

... so the persona is the stakeholder or stakeholders

11:31:03 [JKRhb]

... if you have multiple stakeholders, you can have a primary one and a secondary one, for example

11:31:15 [JKRhb]

... so managers and users could be differentiate in that sense

11:31:48 [JKRhb]

... you also have goals, which are technical requirements, and purposes, which are functional requirements

11:31:50 [kaz]

s|@@@ McCool's slides TBD@@@|https://github.com/user-attachments/files/16933547/2024-09-26-WoT-TPAC-Requirements-McCool.pdf McCool's slides on Requirements|

11:31:54 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

11:31:55 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz

11:32:30 [JKRhb]

... if our requirements fulfill these aspects, then we have functional and technical requirements in all cases

11:32:51 [JKRhb]

... one important thing is that requirements need to satisfiable

11:33:21 [JKRhb]

... badly stated requirements can be hard or impossible to satisfy

11:33:40 [JKRhb]

... (shows examples for requirements that are satisfiable)

11:34:25 [JKRhb]

... Jan or Luca, do you guys know what the TD guys are thinking about requirements and is this in line with that

11:34:53 [kaz]

q+

11:35:25 [JKRhb]

jr: I am not sure

11:35:36 [JKRhb]

mm: I think this was in line with what Ege had in mind

11:35:46 [JKRhb]

... I can probably join the call next week

11:36:13 [JKRhb]

... this is also for being able to group use cases together and create categories

11:36:22 [JKRhb]

... especially when it comes to security

11:36:40 [JKRhb]

... for example, privacy-related use cases

11:37:00 [JKRhb]

... so I have a set of potential categories

11:37:43 [JKRhb]

... security is a special case since you also have risks, and you have features that mitigate that risk

11:37:59 [JKRhb]

... so security will be a special aspect to deal with

11:38:16 [JKRhb]

... and risks might be related to multiple use cases

11:38:50 [JKRhb]

... use cases and requirements need unique identifiers, and these identifiers should be visible in the document

11:39:23 [JKRhb]

... requirements are similar to use cases in the sense that they need to be documented

11:39:52 [kaz]

q?

11:40:10 [JKRhb]

... if the user story is not enough

11:40:39 [JKRhb]

mz: Simple question regarding the diagram on slide 3: Isn't the arrow pointing into the right direction?

11:41:17 [kaz]

ack t

11:41:24 [JKRhb]

mm: Depends on how you see the relation, if you assume that x is motivated by y, then it is correct. But I think we can just remove the arrow heads to avoid confusion

11:41:40 [JKRhb]

... we are going to add hyperlinks to the document

11:41:53 [JKRhb]

... that will reflect the directional relationship

11:42:07 [JKRhb]

kaz: Thank you, Michael, I am basically okay with this direction

11:42:25 [JKRhb]

... I was talking with Ege and Micheal Koster about use cases and requirements from the TD perspective

11:42:50 [JKRhb]

... so this direction is okay, but we might want to start with the TD backlog and input from the industry

11:43:21 [JKRhb]

mm: I was trying to get feedback, but there was little input and Ege is on vacation

11:43:41 [JKRhb]

kaz: We can prioritize certain SDOs as personas

11:43:57 [JKRhb]

mm: We can do that, but I think it is important to identify the stakeholders

11:44:05 [kaz]

s/as personas/as personas here (on slide 4)/

11:44:15 [JKRhb]

mm: The next step is now to make this public and get input

11:44:23 [JKRhb]

... that is why it is on the issue tracker

11:44:39 [JKRhb]

... the next thing to do is cleaning up the "Suggested Plan" slide

11:44:52 [kaz]

s/identify the stakeholders/identify the stakeholders first/

11:44:54 [JKRhb]

... the slides in general is pretty similar to what we had before

11:45:04 [JKRhb]

... the new thing is the user stories

11:45:21 [kaz]

s/and input from/and possible input from/

11:45:25 [JKRhb]

... what we should do is do a test run, with the TD input

11:45:40 [JKRhb]

... but I also really want to get back to discovery and security and continue the work there

11:45:54 [kaz]

s/certain SDOs/certain SDOs we've been liaising with/

11:46:01 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

11:46:02 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz

11:46:08 [JKRhb]

... that is all for now, if you have any more comments, it would be convenient if you put them into the issue tracker

11:46:14 [JKRhb]

... I will upload an updated version to GitHub

11:46:25 [kaz]

q+

11:46:28 [McCool]

https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/issues/301

11:46:40 [JKRhb]

... would be great if you could provide some feedback and put that into the issue

11:46:46 [kaz]

ack k

11:47:36 [JKRhb]

... I will also upload to the wot repository and put it in the TPAC folder

11:47:44 [JKRhb]

... (uploads the slides)

11:48:26 [kaz]

i/I will/kaz: will you update the slides to the "wot/PRESENTATIONS/2024-09-tpac" area as well?/

11:48:38 [kaz]

i/will you/scribenick: kaz/

11:48:52 [kaz]

i/I will also/scribenick: JKRhb/

11:48:59 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

11:49:00 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz

11:49:35 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-09-tpac/2024-09-26-WoT-TPAC-Requirements-McCool.pdf McCool's slides at wot/PRESENTATIONS/2024-09-tpac area

11:49:39 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

11:49:40 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz

11:50:17 [JKRhb]

mm: (Adds a link to the presentation slides to the respective README file)

11:50:42 [JKRhb]

s/a link/links/

11:51:28 [JKRhb]

mm: So that's all there, let me make a link to that (and add it to the issue in the wot-usecases repository)

11:52:08 [JKRhb]

... I will also mention it in the main call

11:52:32 [JKRhb]

mz: Please also check my material for TPAC

11:52:42 [JKRhb]

mm: Please send me an email with the materials

11:53:01 [JKRhb]

mz: I would like to share my screen

11:53:11 [JKRhb]

mm: Sure, but we need to wrap up in five minutes

11:53:13 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

11:53:14 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz

11:53:26 [JKRhb]

mz: I would like to share my material regarding use cases

11:53:49 [JKRhb]

... on the first slides I would like to explain the use case process, similar to McCool-San's materials

11:54:16 [JKRhb]

... so in the process, the use case template and requirements template are used for inputs

11:54:27 [kaz]

i|https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Wiki_for_F2F_2024_planning|subtopic: Presentation template|

11:54:30 [JKRhb]

... then on another slide I would like to explain the use case template

11:54:42 [JKRhb]

... using the page on GitHub

11:54:46 [kaz]

s/topic: Requirements/subtopic: Requirements presentation/

11:54:56 [JKRhb]

... then I would like to explain how to use the materials

11:55:13 [kaz]

s/update the slides to/upload the slides to/

11:55:24 [JKRhb]

mm: Please update your screenshots, as there is still the obsolete template visible

11:55:31 [JKRhb]

... we can do a demo

11:55:37 [kaz]

i/Please also check my/subtopic: Use case presentation/

11:55:46 [JKRhb]

... there are a few typos in the slides

11:55:48 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

11:55:49 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz

11:56:01 [JKRhb]

... is the template in the slides the new one?

11:56:03 [JKRhb]

mz: It is

11:56:37 [JKRhb]

mm: I think it would be better to make the image bigger, crop out the obsolete black part, and zoom into the image

11:57:20 [JKRhb]

... so even it is not readable, people will try to read it, so try to make it readable and focus on the important parts

11:57:31 [JKRhb]

mz: I will update the slides

11:57:36 [JKRhb]

[adjourned]

11:57:57 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

11:57:58 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz

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