10:55:23 RRSAgent has joined #wot-uc 10:55:27 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-irc 10:55:31 meeting: WoT Use Cases 10:56:58 Tomo has joined #wot-uc 10:59:52 present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Tomoaki_Mizushima 11:01:08 agenda: https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/blob/main/TODO/20240911.md 11:02:18 present+ Jan_Romann 11:02:40 present+ Michael_McCool 11:02:49 JKRhb has joined #wot-uc 11:02:49 chair: Mizushima, McCool 11:03:00 regrets+ Ege 11:03:11 rrsagent, make log public 11:03:15 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:03:16 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:06:24 scribenick: JKRhb 11:06:35 q+ 11:06:42 q- 11:06:57 topic: Agenda Review 11:07:16 mz: (adds Jan's name to the scribe list) 11:07:40 ... today's agenda will be about minutes review, use case template, and TPAC 11:07:45 q+ 11:07:46 ... any other topics? 11:07:53 McCool has joined #wot-uc 11:08:12 kaz: Just to make sure: Which item includes Michael McCools requirements? 11:08:27 mz: Probably under four or five 11:08:42 mm: Will talk about it in the context of TPAC 11:09:06 kaz: Which item will be our priority? Use case template or TPAC and requirements? 11:09:11 mz: All three 11:09:24 kaz: My point is the order in which we will handle all of these items 11:09:59 mz: I would like to delete the old use case template 11:10:04 ... and change the name 11:10:21 kaz: If that is a quick item, then it's fine 11:10:39 mm: That's fine, and you are also just renaming the topic 11:10:43 topic: TPAC 11:10:59 s/topic: TPAC// 11:11:30 kaz: It's probably be best to give the moderation to Michael for the TPAC discussion 11:11:52 topic: TPAC 11:12:01 mm: (takes over the screen share) 11:12:14 ... I assume we are going to the F2F planning 11:12:34 kaz: It's best if we first review the minutes 11:12:46 topic: Minutes Review 11:13:01 mm: (Goes over the minutes of the last meeting) 11:13:23 s/It's probably be best to/Regarding the item #4 TPAC and #5 Requirements, McCool mentioned those items to be handled at once, so would be better to/ 11:13:32 ... we adopted a resolution 11:13:41 ... Kaz, is this a copy of the old resolution? 11:13:54 kaz: The old resolution was cited here 11:14:00 mm: That is not really clear here 11:14:09 luca_barbato has joined #wot-uc 11:14:11 kaz: I will add "previous" to make that more clear 11:14:21 mm: (continues the review) 11:14:33 ... I don't see any issues, any objections to approving them? 11:14:36 Minutes are approved 11:14:43 topic: TPAC (continued) 11:14:48 https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Wiki_for_F2F_2024_planning 11:14:56 mm: Here is the link to the wiki 11:15:27 s/topic: TPAC (continued)/topic: Use Case Template/ 11:15:38 s|https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Wiki_for_F2F_2024_planning|| 11:15:44 kaz: Let's first discuss the use case template, as it will be quick 11:15:54 mz: (takes over the screen share again) 11:15:59 s|mm: Here is the link to the wiki|| 11:16:04 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:16:05 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:16:11 ... this template will be for all the use case topics 11:16:24 present+ Luca_Barbato 11:16:39 ... this PR renames the use case template filename, adding ".bak" add the end 11:16:58 ... I first wanted to remove the file, but then I thought it would be better to keep it 11:16:58 q+ 11:17:11 mm: That is fine, we already agreed to proceed that way 11:17:35 kaz: Renaming the file is fine, but you could also move it to a different directory 11:17:57 mm: Renaming it is fine for now, we can properly archive it later 11:18:16 kaz: We should document that in the README file 11:18:41 mm: We can merge the PR now and add a line to the README file later 11:19:02 mz: I would rather like to not move a separate directory (?) 11:19:22 q+ 11:19:54 mm: Usually, we move things to an archive directory, for now renaming it is fine so that is does not show up as an issue template anymore 11:20:12 ... moving it to an archive directory later can be done later 11:20:40 kaz: Does the template appear in the list of issue templates with the .bak file extension? 11:20:42 q- 11:20:43 mm: No 11:20:57 mz: Any other opinions? Then I would like to merge 11:20:59 Merged 11:21:03 s/Does/Would/ 11:21:12 topic: TPAC 11:21:24 mm: (take over the screen share again) 11:21:34 ... this is the TPAC agenda 11:21:49 ... so we are discussion document refactoring and requirements 11:21:56 i/Any other/kaz: In that case, fine to merge./ 11:22:04 i/In that/scribenick: kaz/ 11:22:05 ... I kind of think we should reorder the agenda items and discuss use cases first 11:22:14 i/Any other/scribenick: JKRhb/ 11:22:19 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:22:21 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:22:27 ... to follow a better order, especially when it comes to architecture 11:22:43 ... then we have a very small amount of time for use cases and requirements templates 11:22:53 ... if we need more time, we can also expand the discussion 11:23:03 ... for now, I would keep the discussion at 10 minutes each 11:23:04 i|take over|-> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Wiki_for_F2F_2024_planning TPAC 2024 WoT Wiki| 11:23:12 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:23:14 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:23:29 ... I am also thinking that if we need to, we keep also shrink the time for document refactoring and expand the time for use cases and requirements 11:23:40 ... need to do some more work for preparing this, though 11:23:59 ... we will probably also talk about this in today's TD call 11:24:17 i|Goes over the minutes|-> https://www.w3.org/2024/09/04-wot-uc-minutes.html Sep-4| 11:24:21 https://github.com/w3c/wot/tree/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-09-tpac 11:24:22 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:24:23 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:24:29 ... Mizushima-San, I hope you can also prepare some presentation material 11:24:40 s/more clear/clearer/ 11:24:41 q+ 11:24:46 ... I already have a template prepared on GitHub 11:25:16 ... the file extension needs to be changed, though (from .potx to .ptx) 11:25:29 i|Let's first|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/pull/302 PR 302 - Rename WoT-UseCases-Template.yml to WoT-UseCases-Template.yml.bak| 11:25:30 ... so if you download it, you need to rename it 11:25:52 mz: Yes, I think PowerPoint cannot open it at the moment 11:26:12 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:26:13 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:26:20 mm: (renamed the file and adjusts the README file) 11:26:29 ... anyway, that is the template, so please use it 11:26:33 ... that's for TPAC 11:26:37 topic: Requirements 11:27:32 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:27:34 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:27:48 mm: (shows his powerpoint slides 11:27:58 s/shows his powerpoint slides/shows his powerpoint slides)/ 11:28:13 i|shows|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/issues/301 Issue 301 - Requirements requirements| 11:28:15 ... most of this from last year, with some additions 11:28:25 ... so we have the use cases that motivate certain requirements 11:28:40 ... one use case might motivate one or more requirements 11:28:55 ... then you have work items that satisfy requirements 11:29:16 q+ 11:29:34 ... so when we add a new feature to our documents, we need to be able to trace it back to the use case that motivated it 11:29:53 ... one thing that Ege mentioned ealier were user stories 11:30:08 ... they are user-centric requirements to a certain degree 11:30:26 i|shows|-> @@@ McCool's slides TBD@@@| 11:30:27 ... so you state "what" and "why", and the persona is "who" 11:30:30 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:30:31 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:30:41 ... so the persona is the stakeholder or stakeholders 11:31:03 ... if you have multiple stakeholders, you can have a primary one and a secondary one, for example 11:31:15 ... so managers and users could be differentiate in that sense 11:31:48 ... you also have goals, which are technical requirements, and purposes, which are functional requirements 11:31:50 s|@@@ McCool's slides TBD@@@|https://github.com/user-attachments/files/16933547/2024-09-26-WoT-TPAC-Requirements-McCool.pdf McCool's slides on Requirements| 11:31:54 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:31:55 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:32:30 ... if our requirements fulfill these aspects, then we have functional and technical requirements in all cases 11:32:51 ... one important thing is that requirements need to satisfiable 11:33:21 ... badly stated requirements can be hard or impossible to satisfy 11:33:40 ... (shows examples for requirements that are satisfiable) 11:34:25 ... Jan or Luca, do you guys know what the TD guys are thinking about requirements and is this in line with that 11:34:53 q+ 11:35:25 jr: I am not sure 11:35:36 mm: I think this was in line with what Ege had in mind 11:35:46 ... I can probably join the call next week 11:36:13 ... this is also for being able to group use cases together and create categories 11:36:22 ... especially when it comes to security 11:36:40 ... for example, privacy-related use cases 11:37:00 ... so I have a set of potential categories 11:37:43 ... security is a special case since you also have risks, and you have features that mitigate that risk 11:37:59 ... so security will be a special aspect to deal with 11:38:16 ... and risks might be related to multiple use cases 11:38:50 ... use cases and requirements need unique identifiers, and these identifiers should be visible in the document 11:39:23 ... requirements are similar to use cases in the sense that they need to be documented 11:39:52 q? 11:40:10 ... if the user story is not enough 11:40:39 mz: Simple question regarding the diagram on slide 3: Isn't the arrow pointing into the right direction? 11:41:17 ack t 11:41:24 mm: Depends on how you see the relation, if you assume that x is motivated by y, then it is correct. But I think we can just remove the arrow heads to avoid confusion 11:41:40 ... we are going to add hyperlinks to the document 11:41:53 ... that will reflect the directional relationship 11:42:07 kaz: Thank you, Michael, I am basically okay with this direction 11:42:25 ... I was talking with Ege and Micheal Koster about use cases and requirements from the TD perspective 11:42:50 ... so this direction is okay, but we might want to start with the TD backlog and input from the industry 11:43:21 mm: I was trying to get feedback, but there was little input and Ege is on vacation 11:43:41 kaz: We can prioritize certain SDOs as personas 11:43:57 mm: We can do that, but I think it is important to identify the stakeholders 11:44:05 s/as personas/as personas here (on slide 4)/ 11:44:15 mm: The next step is now to make this public and get input 11:44:23 ... that is why it is on the issue tracker 11:44:39 ... the next thing to do is cleaning up the "Suggested Plan" slide 11:44:52 s/identify the stakeholders/identify the stakeholders first/ 11:44:54 ... the slides in general is pretty similar to what we had before 11:45:04 ... the new thing is the user stories 11:45:21 s/and input from/and possible input from/ 11:45:25 ... what we should do is do a test run, with the TD input 11:45:40 ... but I also really want to get back to discovery and security and continue the work there 11:45:54 s/certain SDOs/certain SDOs we've been liaising with/ 11:46:01 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:46:02 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:46:08 ... that is all for now, if you have any more comments, it would be convenient if you put them into the issue tracker 11:46:14 ... I will upload an updated version to GitHub 11:46:25 q+ 11:46:28 https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/issues/301 11:46:40 ... would be great if you could provide some feedback and put that into the issue 11:46:46 ack k 11:47:36 ... I will also upload to the wot repository and put it in the TPAC folder 11:47:44 ... (uploads the slides) 11:48:26 i/I will/kaz: will you update the slides to the "wot/PRESENTATIONS/2024-09-tpac" area as well?/ 11:48:38 i/will you/scribenick: kaz/ 11:48:52 i/I will also/scribenick: JKRhb/ 11:48:59 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:49:00 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:49:35 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-09-tpac/2024-09-26-WoT-TPAC-Requirements-McCool.pdf McCool's slides at wot/PRESENTATIONS/2024-09-tpac area 11:49:39 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:49:40 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:50:17 mm: (Adds a link to the presentation slides to the respective README file) 11:50:42 s/a link/links/ 11:51:28 mm: So that's all there, let me make a link to that (and add it to the issue in the wot-usecases repository) 11:52:08 ... I will also mention it in the main call 11:52:32 mz: Please also check my material for TPAC 11:52:42 mm: Please send me an email with the materials 11:53:01 mz: I would like to share my screen 11:53:11 mm: Sure, but we need to wrap up in five minutes 11:53:13 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:53:14 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:53:26 mz: I would like to share my material regarding use cases 11:53:49 ... on the first slides I would like to explain the use case process, similar to McCool-San's materials 11:54:16 ... so in the process, the use case template and requirements template are used for inputs 11:54:27 i|https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Wiki_for_F2F_2024_planning|subtopic: Presentation template| 11:54:30 ... then on another slide I would like to explain the use case template 11:54:42 ... using the page on GitHub 11:54:46 s/topic: Requirements/subtopic: Requirements presentation/ 11:54:56 ... then I would like to explain how to use the materials 11:55:13 s/update the slides to/upload the slides to/ 11:55:24 mm: Please update your screenshots, as there is still the obsolete template visible 11:55:31 ... we can do a demo 11:55:37 i/Please also check my/subtopic: Use case presentation/ 11:55:46 ... there are a few typos in the slides 11:55:48 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:55:49 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:56:01 ... is the template in the slides the new one? 11:56:03 mz: It is 11:56:37 mm: I think it would be better to make the image bigger, crop out the obsolete black part, and zoom into the image 11:57:20 ... so even it is not readable, people will try to read it, so try to make it readable and focus on the important parts 11:57:31 mz: I will update the slides 11:57:36 [adjourned] 11:57:57 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:57:58 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 12:02:45 mahda has joined #wot-uc 12:02:51 JKRhb has joined #wot-uc 12:03:39 dape has joined #wot-uc 13:08:57 dape has joined #wot-uc 13:47:27 JKRhb has joined #wot-uc 13:50:25 JKRhb has joined #wot-uc 13:55:44 Zakim has left #wot-uc 14:08:44 mahda1 has joined #wot-uc