18:05:53 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
18:05:58 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/09/10-aria-apg-irc
18:05:58 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
18:05:59 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
18:06:43 <lola> lola has joined #aria-apg
18:06:56 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
18:07:01 <jugglinmike> present+ Matt_King
18:07:03 <jugglinmike> present+ lola
18:07:07 <jugglinmike> present+ howard-e
18:07:12 <jugglinmike> present+ Daniel
18:07:16 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg
18:07:26 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
18:07:42 <jongund> This Jon I am going to be a few minutes late
18:07:44 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page has joined #aria-apg
18:08:04 <Adam_Page> present+
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18:08:43 <jugglinmike> Topic: Setup and Review Agenda
18:08:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Any requests for change to agenda?
18:09:00 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg
18:09:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hearing none, we'll move forward with the agenda as it is
18:09:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next meeting: September 17
18:09:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: No meeting September 24 due to TPAC
18:09:53 <jugglinmike> Topic: Publication planning
18:09:53 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg
18:11:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Previously, we had planned to make a request for publication this Thursday
18:11:10 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg
18:11:18 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I know Daniel won't be in the office, but will Shawn be available?
18:11:36 <jugglinmike> Daniel: Yes; I'll be keeping an eye on this
18:11:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Great. That will be our plan
18:11:55 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It's going to be a fairly light publication, I think
18:12:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Right now, we have two things that are ready to go and I believe two more things that will definitely be ready
18:13:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Only feature of the five in the current milestone may not be ready in time: the high-contrast work
18:13:58 <jugglinmike> Daniel: Got it. I'll communicate with Shawn and Remi
18:14:17 <jugglinmike> Topic: Tabs with action buttons
18:14:27 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3071
18:14:27 <Daniel> s/Remi/Rémi/
18:14:51 <jugglinmike> s/Remi/Rémi/
18:15:10 <jugglinmike> Adam_Page: I made three examples on the one page, and I removed two as we discussed in the previous meeting
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18:15:37 <jugglinmike> Adam_Page: I had put "presentation=role" on the tab wrapper to contain the tab and the button, but since it was just a "div" element, that wasn't necessary. So I removed it
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18:16:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We don't have any documentation in the tables down below about ARIA actions or about the keyboard interaction changes
18:16:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's something I can add
18:16:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Under "keyboard support", currently we have the "tab" key documented. That one would need to be changed
18:16:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: When you press the "tab" key on the selected tab, you would get to the actions menu button...
18:17:37 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If you're tabbing backward, that's the only time this distinction matters
18:17:54 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But we don't have "shift+tab" documented in this table, so I would have to add a row to document "shift+tab"
18:18:10 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: None of the others--left, home--they're not affected
18:18:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Is that it for keyboard documentation?
18:18:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't think we need to document the keyboard interaction for the menu itself. I wonder if I should add a reference to the "menu" page
18:19:05 <jugglinmike> Adam_Page: That's what I was thinking
18:19:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Then for "roles, states, and properties", the only new property is "aria-actions". I think that would be the only change to that table
18:19:29 <jugglinmike> Adam_Page: I think you're right
18:19:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Do you have any time to add any of that yourself before some time tomorrow?
18:19:55 <jugglinmike> Adam_Page: I think so. Can you give me a deadline?
18:20:05 <jugglinmike> howard-e: I will make the pull request on Thursday morning
18:20:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Then a good deadline for Adam_Page would be 17:00 PT tomorrow
18:20:48 <jugglinmike> Adam_Page: That works for me
18:21:14 <jugglinmike> howard-e: Just to confirm: I usually make the pull requests on Thursday by 13:00 ET, which I believe is 10:00 PT
18:21:35 <jugglinmike> Adam_Page: I have linting errors in the pull request; can we take a look at those?
18:22:41 <jugglinmike> Adam_Page: It seemed like linting was set up to run on my local environment, so I'm not sure why they passed on my machine but that the CI tests are failing
18:22:48 <jugglinmike> howard-e: It mentions aria-actions...
18:23:18 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Ah. We have a set of lint exceptions for HTML that are related to either bugs in the HTML linter or new things like this
18:23:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This hasn't been picked up yet--it doesn't know what's valid or not because the spec isn't final
18:23:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think we need to modify the .vnu.rc file
18:24:05 <jugglinmike> howard-e: Right; the line you would add there is whatever follows the "error:" in the error message itself
18:24:17 <jugglinmike> howard-e: This is something you can do in your pull request, Adam_Page
18:24:37 <jugglinmike> s/.vnu.rc/.vnurc/
18:25:13 <jugglinmike> howard-e: There's also some spell check errors here. You'd add those to the "cspell.json" file in the root of the project. It's an object; you just add the words to the root of that object
18:25:26 <jugglinmike> Adam_Page: I should be able to take care of this, no problem. If I have any trouble, I'll ping you folks
18:25:58 <jugglinmike> Adam_Page: I shared the deployment preview with a colleague. He tried to use the CodePen and found that it was broken. Is that a problem for now?
18:26:18 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We could merge with it broken since this is experimental and not many people will see it...
18:26:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But why isn't it working?
18:26:55 <jugglinmike> Adam_Page: I think that because I am setting a new precedent with this example--the example uses the code from another example (the menu pattern's JavaScript and CSS)
18:27:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think we've often copied them for that reason, even though doing so creates redundancy
18:28:16 <jugglinmike> Adam_Page: For what it's worth, the code pen works somewhat; the tab functionality is there--it is just rendered incorrectly and it doesn't have any functionality of the menu
18:31:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: While it might seem more efficient to not duplicate the code; I think it makes sense to copy here to keep the example self-contained
18:31:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We do have some shared JavaScript, but that's mostly related to the template for the page itself rather than the example it's demonstrating
18:32:16 <jugglinmike> Adam_Page: Understood. I'll go ahead and just copy those files into the directory for the tabs
18:32:28 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Great!
18:32:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Does anybody else have feedback on this pull request?
18:32:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Remember that it is experimental, so we expect to continue gathering feedback over time
18:33:09 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hearing none, we'll move forward with just the fixes we've identified today
18:33:14 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Thank you, Adam_Page
18:34:06 <jugglinmike> Topic: Live regions practice
18:34:14 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm trying to recruit help for a page about live regions
18:34:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Simon Pieters originally drafted a whole bunch of content about practice with live regions
18:34:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: ...but it got delayed as we tried to figure out exactly what to recommend
18:35:08 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think this is getting resolved as the working group works on actions
18:35:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: You can see the pull request here; I essentially refactored Simon's pull request without making any substantial changes
18:35:43 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2989/files
18:35:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It's ready to go if someone wants to pick it up and become our resident expert in live regions
18:36:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: You can consider this a "public service announcement"
18:36:29 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2989
18:36:39 <jugglinmike> jongund: It looks like the preview failed the build
18:36:47 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There were definitely some linting errors here
18:37:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay, well then it actually needs some clean-up work!
18:39:50 <jugglinmike> jongund: I can take a look at these errors
18:40:21 <jugglinmike> howard-e: It might be an issue with the build repository itself. There's a long-standing issue where if that repository has progressed way beyond the current structure, there could be incompatibilities
18:40:48 <jugglinmike> howard-e: I see here that the work was done in April, so there may have been significant changes to the "build" repository in the time since
18:42:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Thank you jongund and howard-e for agreeing to help get this cleaned up a bit
18:42:07 <jugglinmike> Topic: ARIA 1.3
18:42:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is another public-service announcement
18:42:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There is more work that needs to be done for the ARIA 1.3 milestone
18:42:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There are six open issues for providing information related to ARIA 1.3
18:43:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I was pretty sure that the draft that they want to send to "candidate recommendation" is either imminent or close
18:43:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: ...so that makes the importance of these issues increasing
18:43:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We have stuff related to "ARIA details" which is widely used by certain apps
18:43:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There are also the new braille properties--that seems like something that needs particularly strong guidance
18:44:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The one for "term and definition no longer allowing author naming" should actually be a pretty simple one
18:44:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There's also one for "role=comment" and "suggestion"
18:44:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There's another, which is more of a reference for someone working on "details" and "suggestion". It's some resources for those roles
18:45:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So there are kind of three really "meaty" ones in here
18:45:15 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Does anybody want to work on any or all of this?
18:45:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I will do some more recruiting at TPAC, as well
18:46:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Those are the things that we have for content that are in our roadmap right now. If anyone gets bandwidth to take them on, then that would be helpful!
18:46:17 <jugglinmike> Topic: MDN Proposal - next steps
18:46:25 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3098
18:46:39 <jugglinmike> lola: I don't know if there's anything else to add here today because Matt_King has responded to the proposal
18:46:51 <jugglinmike> lola: My previous action item was to write the proposal
18:47:06 <jugglinmike> lola: I'm still waiting on Ruth's input. She just got back from leave, though, so she needs a little more time
18:47:30 <jugglinmike> lola: She's on UK time, so this meeting is a bit late for her, but I encouraged her to comment on this issue. Hopefully she'll be able to do that within the next couple of weeks
18:47:41 <jugglinmike> lola: TPAC is in two weeks, though, so we may revisit this after TPAC
18:48:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: My comment is consider how to streamline the proposal--how we would maintain the APG task force mission
18:48:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Is there anybody from the MDN stakeholders that will be present at TPAC?
18:48:59 <jugglinmike> lola: I can find out. I don't think that Ruth will be at TPAC, but perhaps some of her colleagues at MDN will
18:49:23 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That could be a good forum for having a deeper discussion about these options and their tradeoffs
18:49:31 <jugglinmike> lola: Agreed, though I won't be attending TPAC this year
18:49:55 <jugglinmike> lola: We can try to figure out a separate meeting time with Ruth
18:50:23 <jugglinmike> lola: My understanding for the next phase is to follow up with Ruth next week and to schedule a meeting with the stakeholders
18:50:36 <jugglinmike> lola: Should I invite anyone else from this group?
18:51:09 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Anyone who is interested. If we're discussing anything related to an API, then it could be useful for howard-e to be present because he designed something similar for the ARIA-AT project
18:51:12 <jugglinmike> howard-e: Sounds good
18:51:45 <jugglinmike> lola: I've spoken about this with Boaz and Chris at Bocoup. Chris wants to stay abreast, so howard-e can also help keep Chris in the loop
18:51:57 <jugglinmike> lola: Is there anyone else who would like to be involved?
18:52:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If we had an API in place to pull content from the APG and make that available for syndication for use in other places. Is there anything in W3.org or WAI--would they end up needing to be a stakeholder in what we do there
18:52:53 <jugglinmike> s/there/there?/
18:53:21 <jugglinmike> Daniel: I'm not sure. I can't think of any at the moment, but I need to double-check, so I'd like to stay in the loop about this.
18:53:30 <jugglinmike> Daniel: I'm in the central Europe time zone
18:54:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I was wondering if there might be any technical implications with respect to other sites. I assume it's not really different from any other kind of request hitting the website, but I don't know
18:54:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I suppose if they were going to be automated in some way (to pull in updates, for example), I wonder how that would work
18:55:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There are no technical details in the proposal that Lola has posted as a GitHub issue, but it is still worth reading for you, Daniel
18:55:45 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Thank you very much, lola!
18:55:49 <jugglinmike> lola: Thanks, Matt_King
18:55:56 <jugglinmike> Topic: Feedback on Tooltip Pattern Language
18:56:03 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3109
18:56:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: there's a note in the tooltip pattern about the mouse-dismiss behavior
18:56:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The reporter has suggested that the way we worded the second note in the tooltip pattern doesn't conform with WCAG
18:57:12 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't think that was our intent, but it is vague when it says "on mouseout" (not "on mouseout of the tooltip")
18:57:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I wonder if other people interpret this language in the way that the person who raised this issue interprets it
18:58:39 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The language of concern: "If the tooltip is invoked when the trigger element receives focus, then  it is dismissed when it no longer has focus (onBlur). If the tooltip is  invoked with mouseIn, then it is dismissed with on mouseOut."
18:58:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: "invoked with mouseIn" -- I interpret that to mean that the user hovers over the element that displays the tooltip
18:59:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: "on mouseOut", that sounds like the mouse moving out of the element that triggers the display of the tooltip, but that is not what WCAG requires, right?
19:00:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: WCAG requires that you can move the mouse into the tooltip itself and the tooltip won't disappear
19:01:47 <jugglinmike> jongund: We should probably write about the "pointer" rather than the "mouse", but that's a separate issue
19:02:25 <jugglinmike> jongund: But the reporter's issue makes sense to me
19:03:28 <jugglinmike> jongund: It's doubtful that the triggering element and the tooltip itself will be contiguous, so there may need to be some kind of delay to allow the pointer to travel from the triggering element to the tooltip
19:04:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It would be helpful to have some wording which captures the precise "dismiss" conditions
19:04:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I wonder if WCAG already has some wording to this effect
19:04:38 <jugglinmike> Adam_Page: I don't think it does
19:05:15 <jugglinmike> Adam_Page: I think the reporter would be satisfied with a clarification that users can mouse into the tooltip content without dismissing the tooltip
19:05:33 <jugglinmike> Adam_Page: Because I think they're coming from a place of good faith where the tooltip content is adjacent to their trigger
19:05:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Does anyone want to propose some wording?
19:05:56 <jugglinmike> Adam_Page: I'd be glad to take this on
19:06:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Thank you, Adam_Page! If you just want to make a proposal in the issue itself, then we can get aligned with the reporter and with each other, and then that makes it easier for anyone to pick it up as a formal pull request
19:06:54 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I've assigned you, Adam_Page
19:07:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Thanks, everyone! Have a great rest of your day, wherever you are
19:07:37 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
19:07:37 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, Matt_King, lola, howard-e, Daniel, Adam_Page
19:07:40 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
19:07:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/10-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim
19:07:48 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
19:07:48 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-apg
19:07:54 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent, leave
19:07:54 <RRSAgent> I see no action items