12:43:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #matf
12:43:55 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/09/04-matf-irc
12:43:55 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:43:56 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Joe_Humbert
12:44:35 <Joe_Humbert> Zakim, this is MATF 4 September 2024
12:44:35 <Zakim> got it, Joe_Humbert
12:44:51 <Joe_Humbert> Meeting: MATF 4 September 2024
12:45:03 <Joe_Humbert> present+
12:45:54 <Joe_Humbert> agenda+ Review voting on SCs that required little or no modification from WCAG2ICT
12:46:15 <Joe_Humbert> agenda + 2.5.1 Pointer Gestures
12:46:35 <Joe_Humbert> agenda+ 2.5.2 Pointer Cancellation
12:46:57 <Joe_Humbert> agenda+ 2.5.3 Label in Name
12:48:06 <Joe_Humbert> zakim, agenda?
12:48:06 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
12:48:07 <Zakim> 4. 2.4.7 Focus Visible [from JJ]
12:48:07 <Zakim> 5. Review voting on SCs that required little or no modification from WCAG2ICT [from Joe_Humbert]
12:48:07 <Zakim> 6. 2.5.1 Pointer Gestures [from Joe_Humbert]
12:48:07 <Zakim> 7. 2.5.2 Pointer Cancellation [from Joe_Humbert]
12:48:07 <Zakim> 8. 2.5.3 Label in Name [from Joe_Humbert]
12:48:45 <Joe_Humbert> agenda - 2.4.7 Focus Visible
12:49:05 <Joe_Humbert> move to next agendum
12:49:05 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Review voting on SCs that required little or no modification from WCAG2ICT -- taken up [from Joe_Humbert]
12:55:00 <julianmka> julianmka has joined #MATF
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12:57:41 <Alainvagner> present+
12:58:26 <Joe_Humbert> regrets Mick Keane
12:59:15 <Joe_Humbert> regrets+ Mick Keane
12:59:37 <quintinb> quintinb has joined #MATF
13:00:00 <julianmka> present+
13:00:20 <quintinb> Please accept my deepest apologies, I will not be able to attend. I just found out myself
13:00:26 <quintinb> regrets quintinb
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13:01:00 <Illai> Illai has joined #matf
13:01:03 <Carolina> Carolina has joined #MATF
13:01:38 <Devanshu> Devanshu has joined #matf
13:02:05 <Joe_Humbert> regrets+ Quintin Balsdon
13:02:24 <Aashutosh> present +
13:02:36 <Devanshu> present+
13:02:43 <Carolina> present+
13:02:55 <Karla> Karla has joined #matf
13:02:55 <Illai> present+
13:03:03 <Karla> present+
13:03:10 <Joe_Humbert> scribe: julianmka
13:03:21 <Joe_Humbert> scribe: <julianmka>
13:03:52 <Joe_Humbert> open agendum 5
13:07:11 <julianmka> Joe: Summarizes voting activity on proposed language for 2.3.1 Three flashes or below threshold. 5 votes yes, 1 vote no.
13:07:27 <julianmka> q+
13:07:36 <Illai> q+
13:07:36 <Jamers> Jamers has joined #matf
13:07:37 <Alainvagner> q+
13:08:16 <Jamers> present+
13:09:03 <julianmka> Joe: Summarizes Mick's comment about the technical nature of the threshold and difficulty in applying it.
13:09:07 <Joe_Humbert> ack julianmka
13:10:06 <Joe_Humbert> ack Illai
13:10:31 <julianmka> Julian: Mick's concerns seem more at odds with the original SC than anything we have under our control.
13:10:55 <julianmka> Joe: We may be able to create a new definition that may make things easier.
13:11:24 <julianmka> Illai: Alain brought up watches, what about other devices?
13:11:33 <Aashutosh> q+
13:11:33 <Jamers> q+
13:11:49 <julianmka> Joe: Apple watch example - not only a different device but also a different OS.
13:11:53 <Joe_Humbert> ack Alainvagner
13:12:05 <julianmka> Alain: Not sure if smartwatches are in scope of MATF.
13:12:30 <Aashutosh> q-
13:12:44 <julianmka> Alain: Could we clarify what's in scope for mobile applications in terms of other hardware?
13:12:48 <Alainvagner> q-
13:12:55 <Joe_Humbert> ack Jamers
13:13:36 <Aashutosh> q+
13:14:21 <GleidsonRamos> GleidsonRamos has joined #matf
13:14:46 <julianmka> Jamers: WCAG2ICT is about non-web space, we're here for mobile/smartphone devices. Readers of our docs would benefit from clarifying scope and there are probably questions out there about smartwatches etc.
13:15:05 <julianmka> Jamers: Need to clarify scope within this team.
13:15:21 <Illai> +1 to Jame
13:15:30 <Karla> + 1
13:15:33 <Alainvagner> +1
13:15:44 <julianmka> Joe: May need to define other terms and platforms.
13:15:49 <julianmka> +1 Jamie
13:16:27 <julianmka> Joe: We can limit scope of our first draft so this doesn't drag on forever.
13:16:29 <Joe_Humbert> ack aashutosh
13:17:34 <julianmka> Aashutosh: Concerning this SC, people use their mobile devices in the dark and in environments where flashes/light can have a greater impact.
13:17:52 <julianmka> q+
13:18:21 <Joe_Humbert> ack julianmka\
13:18:25 <Joe_Humbert> ack julianmka
13:18:46 <Jamers> 1+
13:18:47 <julianmka> Accept 2.3.1 as proposed in Github?
13:19:03 <Carolina> 1+
13:19:06 <Jamers> +1
13:19:07 <Devanshu> +1
13:19:07 <julianmka> +1
13:19:07 <Illai> +1
13:19:08 <Aashutosh> +1
13:19:08 <Alainvagner> +1
13:19:10 <Karla> +1
13:19:34 <julianmka> ACTION: Flag Github issue as ready (for now)
13:19:57 <julianmka> Joe: Next SC to review -2.2.2 Pause, stop, hide
13:20:39 <julianmka> Joe: Github issue for 2.2.2 has 6 votes to accept.
13:20:45 <julianmka> Accept 2.2.2 as proposed in Github?
13:20:51 <Illai> +1
13:20:51 <Jamers> +1
13:20:51 <julianmka> +1
13:20:52 <Alainvagner> +1
13:20:54 <Aashutosh> +1
13:20:57 <Karla> +1
13:21:05 <Carolina> +1
13:21:11 <GleidsonRamos> +1
13:21:17 <julianmka> ACTION: Flag 2.2.2 issue as ready to go
13:21:54 <julianmka> q+
13:22:16 <julianmka> Joe: Next SC: 1.4.5 Images of text. Only comment about Julian's question re: Closed Functionality.
13:22:24 <Joe_Humbert> ack julianmka
13:23:11 <Alainvagner> +1 to julianmka
13:23:14 <Illai> +1
13:23:23 <Karla> +1
13:23:24 <GleidsonRamos> +1
13:23:38 <julianmka> julianmka: Proposes we leave out Closed Functionality note and add in after TF discussion.
13:23:40 <Jamers> +1 to Julian
13:23:58 <Carolina> +1
13:24:04 <julianmka> +1
13:24:07 <Aashutosh> +1
13:24:11 <julianmka> ACTION: Flag 1.4.5 issue as ready to go in Github
13:24:37 <julianmka> ACTION: Discuss Closed Functionality in future meeting
13:25:30 <julianmka>           Joe_Humbert: Next SC: 1.4.2 Audio Control. No comments in GH issue.
13:25:49 <julianmka> Accept 1.4.2 as proposed in Github?
13:25:51 <Jamers> +1
13:25:54 <Alainvagner> +1
13:25:55 <Illai> +1
13:25:55 <Karla> +1
13:25:58 <GleidsonRamos> +1
13:25:58 <julianmka> +1
13:26:00 <Devanshu> +1
13:26:04 <Carolina> +1
13:26:14 <julianmka> ACTION: Flag 1.4.2 as ready to go in GH
13:26:53 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: Next SC: 1.2.5 Audio Description (prerecorded). No discussion in Github.
13:27:17 <julianmka> Accept 1.2.5 as proposed in Github?
13:27:20 <Alainvagner> +1
13:27:22 <Illai> +1
13:27:23 <Carolina> +1
13:27:23 <Karla> +1
13:27:23 <julianmka> +1
13:27:25 <Jamers> +1
13:27:25 <Aashutosh> +1
13:27:31 <GleidsonRamos> +1
13:27:42 <julianmka> ACTION: Flag 1.4.2 as ready in Github
13:28:22 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: Next SC: 1.2.4 Captions (live). Fewer votes in github, but no discussion.
13:28:42 <Jamers> +1
13:28:55 <julianmka> Accept 1.2.4 as proposed in Github?
13:28:59 <Alainvagner> +1
13:29:00 <GleidsonRamos> +1
13:29:00 <Carolina> +1
13:29:00 <Karla> +1
13:29:03 <Illai> +1
13:29:10 <julianmka> ACTION: Flag 1.2.4 as ready in Github
13:29:59 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: Next SC: 1.2.2 Captions (prerecorded). No discussion in Github issue.
13:30:17 <Alainvagner> +1
13:30:18 <julianmka> Accept 1.2.2 as proposed in Github?
13:30:21 <Carolina> +1
13:30:21 <Illai> +1
13:30:22 <Karla> +1
13:30:32 <Devanshu> +1
13:30:39 <Jamers> +1
13:30:48 <julianmka> ACTION: Flag 1.2.2 as ready in Github.
13:31:30 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: Next SC: 1.2.3 Audio description or media alternative (prerecorded). Includes note about Closed Functionality which will not be included in first draft. No comments in Github issue.
13:31:42 <julianmka> Accept 1.2.3 as proposed?
13:31:44 <Alainvagner> +1
13:31:47 <Karla> +1
13:31:47 <Illai> +1
13:31:47 <Carolina> +1
13:31:48 <julianmka> +1
13:31:51 <Jamers> +1
13:31:58 <GleidsonRamos> +1
13:32:06 <Aashutosh> +1
13:32:15 <julianmka> ACTION: Flag 1.2.3 as ready in Github.
13:32:52 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: Next SC: 1.2.1 Audio-only and video-only (prerecorded). Includes note about Closed functionality which willl not be included in first draft. Not comments in Github issue.
13:33:16 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: Accept 1.2.1 as proposed?
13:33:18 <Alainvagner> +1
13:33:18 <Carolina> +1
13:33:21 <Illai> +1
13:33:21 <julianmka> +1
13:33:21 <GleidsonRamos> +1
13:33:21 <Karla> +1
13:33:21 <Devanshu> +1
13:33:23 <Jamers> +1
13:33:36 <julianmka> ACTION: Flag 1.2.1 as ready in Github
13:33:50 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: Last SC: 2.2.1 Timing adjustable
13:35:21 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: Recent comment from JJ conversation with Alastair from large AGWG. Core question -- is respecting system features like reduce animations sufficient to meet this SC?
13:36:04 <Jamers> -1
13:36:37 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: Or rather, would a system setting to extend the time components like toasts appear on the screen be sufficient?
13:37:12 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: Alastair seemed to agree that the Android toast setting could be enough.
13:37:17 <julianmka> q+
13:37:21 <Jamers> never mind, ignore my -1
13:37:25 <Joe_Humbert> ack julianmka
13:37:51 <Alainvagner> q+
13:38:02 <Joe_Humbert> ack Alainvagner
13:38:08 <julianmka> julianmka: Comment from JJ and Alastair is interesting but not enough to hold up moving forward with this SC for the first draft.
13:38:31 <julianmka> Alainvagner: Question about system-wide settings conversation applies across several SCs, is a larger conversation.
13:39:04 <Jamers> q+
13:39:11 <Joe_Humbert> ack Jamers
13:39:22 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: There are several ways to satisfy this SC.
13:40:40 <julianmka> Jamers: Note in the proposed language clarifies intent that the goal of this SC is not to interrupt users' task completion due to time limits. Drafted language and mechanisms provide enough guidance/flexibility for app creators to meet this SC.
13:40:58 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: Accept 2.2.1 as proposed?
13:41:09 <Alainvagner> +1
13:41:10 <Karla> +1
13:41:12 <Carolina> +1
13:41:12 <Illai> +1
13:41:18 <julianmka> +1
13:41:50 <GleidsonRamos> +1
13:41:58 <julianmka> ACTION: Flag 2.2.1 as ready in Github.
13:43:00 <julianmka> julianmka: Do we need another issue to discuss whether system-level accessibility settings satisfy SCs?
13:43:51 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: Supporting accessibility settings and whether settings are sufficient techniques are separate conversations.
13:43:56 <julianmka> q+
13:43:57 <Jamers> q+
13:44:00 <Alainvagner> +1 to Joe_Humbert
13:44:14 <Karla> +1 to Joe
13:45:10 <Jamers> +1 to @detlev
13:45:18 <julianmka> Alainvagner: I'm uncomfortable with assuming that system settings will do the job. We know from user testing that people don't know about system settings.
13:45:36 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: So you want more conversation about whether system settings are a separate discussion?
13:45:45 <Joe_Humbert> ack julianmka
13:45:45 <julianmka> Alainvagner: Yes, separate discussion
13:45:48 <Jamers> q-
13:45:50 <Alainvagner> julianmka it was @detlev in your last message
13:46:41 <julianmka> julianmka: Agrees with Detlev
13:46:49 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #matf
13:47:11 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: Sounds like we need more conversation on sufficient techniques.
13:47:14 <Detlev> present+
13:47:50 <julianmka> ACTION: Create new Github issue to discuss system settings as sufficient techniques.
13:47:56 <Joe_Humbert> move to next agendum
13:47:56 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- 2.5.1 Pointer Gestures -- taken up [from Joe_Humbert]
13:48:23 <Joe_Humbert> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/37
13:48:47 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: Summarizes current Github comment activity where Alainvagner expressed desire to keep it as close to WCAG2ICT as possible.
13:49:47 <Detlev> q+
13:50:18 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: What is considered a path-based gesture on mobile? That isn't defined in the original SC nor in WCAG2ICT.
13:50:47 <Jamers> q+
13:50:53 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: Note excludes "actions that are required to operate the user agent". Is the user agent the mobile device/OS?
13:50:58 <Joe_Humbert> ack detlev
13:50:59 <GleidsonRamos> q+
13:52:09 <julianmka> Detlev: Swiping to scroll would be an OS-gesture. If people implement a path-based gesture like to move a slider, to what extent is it acceptable to have alternative conforming options? E.g. slider and additional view that allows selection of possible options from the slider.
13:52:34 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: That would be conformant so long as it isn't a path-based gesture.
13:52:53 <julianmka> Detlev: Basic swiping would not be a path-based gesture.
13:52:56 <Joe_Humbert> ack Jamers
13:54:20 <Joe_Humbert> https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/Understanding/pointer-gestures.html
13:54:54 <julianmka> Jamers: Path-based gesture is defined in the 2.5.1 Understanding document. Examples include swiping through carousels where the direction matters. I suggest we diverge from WCAG2ICT on this and link to the Understanding document with its definition.
13:55:10 <Illai>  +1 Jame
13:55:34 <julianmka> Jamers: We could add a note or link to the Understanding document since it's better defined there.
13:56:28 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: I think wCAG2ICT didn't link to it because 2.2 doesn't link to the Understanding doc. Maybe this is a good question to ask the other working group - why they didn't define it in 2.2. but did in the Understanding doc.
13:57:37 <julianmka> Jamers: I'm suggesting that there's more guidance in WCAG documentation than WCAG2ICT that we can point people to. I know the Understanding doc only expands on normative text but in this case it's helpful.
13:57:45 <Detlev> q+
13:58:25 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: Not sure if it's better to define terms in our documentation or add a note to this SC.
13:58:57 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: One issue is that the Understanding doc mentions swipes. What is a swipe, and are some OS gestures swipes which are exempt?
13:59:15 <Joe_Humbert> ack GleidsonRamos
14:00:45 <julianmka> GleidsonRamos: I don't think swipe is a path-based gesture, I think the intent is more about drag & drop functionality. I don't agree with the exception for user agent.
14:00:56 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: We can't change the original SC langauge but we coudl add a note to explain further.
14:01:19 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: Will keep this topic in next meeting agenda
14:01:57 <Joe_Humbert> Zakim, list participants
14:01:57 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been JJ, quintinb, julianmka, illai, Mick, Carol, JoeHumbert, Jamie, Joe_Humbert, Alainvagner, Devanshu, Carolina, Karla, Jamers,  1, Detlev
14:02:27 <Joe_Humbert> rrsagent, make minutes
14:02:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/04-matf-minutes.html Joe_Humbert
14:03:18 <Joe_Humbert> rrsagent, bye
14:03:18 <RRSAgent> I see 12 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2024/09/04-matf-actions.rdf :
14:03:18 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Flag Github issue as ready (for now) [1]
14:03:18 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/09/04-matf-irc#T13-19-34
14:03:18 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Flag 2.2.2 issue as ready to go [2]
14:03:18 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/09/04-matf-irc#T13-21-17
14:03:18 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Flag 1.4.5 issue as ready to go in Github [3]
14:03:18 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/09/04-matf-irc#T13-24-11
14:03:18 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Discuss Closed Functionality in future meeting [4]
14:03:18 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/09/04-matf-irc#T13-24-37
14:03:18 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Flag 1.4.2 as ready to go in GH [5]
14:03:18 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/09/04-matf-irc#T13-26-14
14:03:18 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Flag 1.4.2 as ready in Github [6]
14:03:18 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/09/04-matf-irc#T13-27-42
14:03:18 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Flag 1.2.4 as ready in Github [7]
14:03:18 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/09/04-matf-irc#T13-29-10
14:03:18 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Flag 1.2.2 as ready in Github. [8]
14:03:18 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/09/04-matf-irc#T13-30-48
14:03:18 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Flag 1.2.3 as ready in Github. [9]
14:03:18 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/09/04-matf-irc#T13-32-15
14:03:18 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Flag 1.2.1 as ready in Github [10]
14:03:18 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/09/04-matf-irc#T13-33-36
14:03:18 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Flag 2.2.1 as ready in Github. [11]
14:03:18 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/09/04-matf-irc#T13-41-58
14:03:18 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Create new Github issue to discuss system settings as sufficient techniques. [12]
14:03:18 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/09/04-matf-irc#T13-47-50