12:52:16 RRSAgent has joined #coga 12:52:20 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/09/03-coga-irc 12:52:20 RRSAgent, make logs Public 12:52:21 Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 12:52:56 chair: julierawe 12:53:28 Meeting: WCAG3 Implied Meaning Subgroup 12:53:40 date: 03 sep 2024 12:53:57 regrets: Mike, Jan 12:55:09 present+ 12:56:02 JohnRochford has joined #coga 13:01:02 Laura_Carlson has joined #coga 13:01:36 Rain has joined #coga 13:01:47 present+ 13:04:56 present+ 13:05:34 present+ 13:05:48 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1P7fOyEPVlqf1aXuJY0SO9LeC-E7EZllg/edit#heading=h.r8flmepsu94v 13:06:03 present+ Laura_Carlson 13:07:50 Makoto has joined #coga 13:08:01 present+ 13:13:33 Roy has joined #coga 13:14:40 Frankie has joined #coga 13:15:37 prrsent+ 13:15:50 We are reviewing updated draft from the top 13:16:09 John R asked Makoto if Japanese includes onomatopia words like "plop" 13:16:12 Makoto said yt 13:16:14 yes 13:16:31 julierawe Reminder that we are trying to come up with universal guidance and will include language-specific tests 13:16:58 Determine if the text requires specific background knowledge that may not be universal to understand it. 13:17:24 Above as a potential best practice or guidance to offer people to consider, but not require specifically because too broad 13:17:54 JohnRochford Previously in our work we referenced common-word lists 13:18:03 LenB has joined #coga 13:18:12 JohnRochford We could say if your text uses common words or phrases? 13:18:16 present + 13:18:20 i didn’t want to put into notes (link shared in chat) but there is much discussion about large language models and implied meaning in ai 13:19:36 JohnRochford How will people recognize if they are using clear language? 13:20:14 JohnRochford We could have a list. In the working draft from 2023, we have a long list 13:20:18 implied meaning in ai language models is under discussion here and may be useful for us: https://www.aimodels.fyi/papers/arxiv/do-language-models-capture-implied-discourse-meanings 13:22:17 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JKJ32DK_A82ahsQ_k0RVPc-ZYpX5uuKtuGOLdo2OqyY/edit#heading=h.4bh5hmxp8y5q 13:24:59 JohnRochford I don't see any practical way to determine all of the possible meanings that a word can have in every language 13:27:49 JohnRochford If you don't focus on the list of common words, and you just craft a technique, maybe this will be helpful 13:28:04 Rain I think having a framework to craft the techinque will help us 13:28:22 JohnRochford I suggest the way we crafted the common words draft could be helpful 13:31:40 do we need a method to determine if there is implied meaning? 13:31:55 JohnRochford How can we help people determine if they have implied meaning? 13:32:03 kirkwood That's the big question to me 13:32:43 Rain We are helping people, not doing it for them. We're giving them things they can try. We're not guaranteeing their success. 13:33:15 Rain We can say, here are some things that can help you in this process. A set of suggestions or offerings. 13:34:34 JohnRochford I agree. What Kirkwood and I are talking about is how we can help people recognize if they're using literal text or not. 13:35:26 Rain I think we need to be more suggestive, not proscriptive 13:36:12 so is it that we need to make a method to determine if there is a significant implied meaning that affects reasonable understanding of content 13:39:33 kirkwood Defining non-literal language is a start. 13:40:32 Frankie I'm having trouble understanding what we're debating. 13:40:46 Frankie Common words depends on the space I'm working in. 13:40:56 +1 13:41:23 Rain When we're asking authors to determine if they have implied meaning or not, what would be helpful for you? 13:42:01 Rain There is always a level that is context-specific to the space. Style guides are incredibly important to making those decisions. 13:42:13 Sorry, that was Frankie 13:43:13 +1 to Frankie 13:45:01 Frankie A lot of tech writers are using AI tools to go through their writing for a specific reading level 13:45:18 Frankie We'd have a list of don't-use-these-words 13:45:40 I feel we should scrap the concept of a common words list 13:46:07 Frankie I'm not sure how helpful a list of common words would be 13:46:34 Rain I agree. What we need to do is transition into what we're putting in the document. 13:47:06 Rain One technique could be reference a style guide, but what if you don't have a style guide? 13:47:23 is using ai a technique ? 13:51:10 Can the language used be understood exactly as stated, according to the definitions attached to the words involved? 13:52:28 Makoto WCAG 2.2 has a success criterion about using unusual words. It said you have to explain only if you think the intended users are not familiar with the words. Don't need to explain jargon to professionals who use that jargon. Up to the website to determine. 13:52:37 Mkota had a good point “unusual for the intended user of website” 13:53:12 LenB Sports websites or car websites or technology websites—they all have their own way of speaking. 13:53:32 LenB An attorney website will have very different language than a sports website. 13:58:00 well said, good example 13:58:00 Those are great examples 14:01:33 julierawe Let's keep the focus of this outcome on implied meaning rather than jargon. A sports site or an attorney site will use a lot of jargon, but if those sites use metaphors, sarcasm, etc, that's what this outcome should focus on. 14:01:50 julierawe Let's all review the margin comments in the draft before our next meeting, thanks. 14:02:06 rrsagent, make minutes 14:02:07 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/03-coga-minutes.html julierawe 15:01:57 ShawnT has joined #coga