16:54:16 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:54:20 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/08/22-aria-irc
16:54:20 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:54:21 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
16:54:27 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
16:54:27 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
16:54:28 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b57854a-65cb-421e-b9e0-f9a8da31f160/20240822T130000/
16:54:28 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:54:28 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/4cx5Z7M
16:54:28 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3yMqkrN
16:54:30 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y
16:54:33 <agendabot> agenda+ -> TPAC planning https://github.com/w3c/aria/discussions/2283
16:54:35 <agendabot> agenda+ PR Naming and Labelling conventions
16:54:42 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Spec for menu/menuitem does not provide enough author guidance for structure https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2300
16:54:43 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Non-aria way to declare an svg as presentational https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2313
16:54:46 <agendabot> agenda+ -> 9.3 Presentational Roles Conflict Resolution does not consider custom element use cases https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2303
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17:01:45 <spectranaut_> agenda?
17:01:48 <giacomo-petri> present+
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17:02:58 <katez> present+
17:03:31 <Adam_Page> present+
17:04:42 <jcraig> present+
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17:05:11 <sarah> present+
17:05:15 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
17:05:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/22-aria-minutes.html jcraig
17:05:26 <StefanS> present+
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17:06:02 <smockle> present+
17:06:10 <filippo-zorzi> present+
17:06:18 <katez> scribe: katez
17:06:30 <katez> Zakim, next item
17:06:30 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/4cx5Z7M -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:06:33 <spectranaut_> chair: valerie_young
17:06:36 <scott> present+
17:06:43 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
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17:07:59 <katez> scott: this is a follow up on what clay is doing in the atk spec, and follow up from html aam
17:08:25 <katez> scott: for html aam, I would just like to clean up how they're referenced in the table
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17:08:55 <katez> spectranaut_: this is a good first issue, if anyone would like to volunteer
17:09:17 <keithamus> present+
17:09:20 <katez> smockle, I will volunteer
17:09:25 <katez> Zakim, next item
17:09:25 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3yMqkrN -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:09:39 <BGaraventa> present+ BGaraventa
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17:10:37 <jamesn> present+
17:10:39 <katez> Zakim, close this issue
17:10:41 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close this issue', katez
17:10:46 <katez> Zakim, close this item
17:10:46 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
17:10:47 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:10:47 <Zakim> 3. -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y [from agendabot]
17:10:52 <aardrian> present+
17:10:56 <katez> Zakim, next item
17:10:56 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:11:57 <katez> jcraig: going through asking if there are anything to discuss
17:13:22 <katez> @jamescraig: it's worth noting for the group that one of the reason we had a pr that james reviewed is that we're currently checking these files right now, but there was one with an exception, and it changed the failure rate for the browser so we rolled it back very quickly so that it wouldn't adjust the scores, if you're working on anything and I
17:13:22 <katez> would be happy to help
17:13:31 <katez> Zakim, next item
17:13:31 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> TPAC planning https://github.com/w3c/aria/discussions/2283 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:14:03 <katez> spectranaut_: reminder to add topics for TPAC, right now there are 2 topics in this discussion board, and a few issues with face to face candidate
17:14:26 <katez> spectranaut_: now's the time!
17:14:33 <giacomo-petri> q+
17:14:36 <jcraig> s/@jamescraig: /jcraig: /g
17:14:40 <katez> @mattking: I will add some today
17:14:44 <spectranaut_> ack giacomo-petri
17:15:12 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2162
17:15:25 <katez> giacomo-petri: I've reviewed the item that was assigned to me, I'm not sure if there's anything else I need to contribute at this point, so the group needs to decide if they want to move forward
17:15:41 <katez> spectranaut_: I will make a note in the PR
17:16:05 <katez> Zakim, next item
17:16:05 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- PR Naming and Labelling conventions -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:17:21 <jcraig> s/it's worth noting for the group that one of the reason we had a pr that james reviewed is that we're currently checking these files right now, but there was one with an exception, and it changed the failure rate for the browser so we rolled it back very quickly so that it wouldn't adjust the scores, if you're working on anything and I/re: WPT Interop 2024 many of the files are being tracked as part of the Accessibility Focus Area, and there
17:17:21 <jcraig> was an updated subtest with an invalid expectation, which changed the failure rate for a browser, so we rolled it back so that it wouldn't adjust the scores. If you're working on WPT and have questions, I/
17:17:34 <katez> spectranaut_: just wanted to say that there was some inconsistencies in the PR name, since we went to the monorepo, we talked about it in the editor's meeting, as it is right now, people were using square brackets to say which were affected by the PR, but that was when we were moving individual items to the monorepo, but that was temporary, you
17:17:34 <katez> should now use labels per specification
17:17:47 <katez> spectranaut_: I added this to the process document so you can look at it there as well
17:17:56 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/aria/blob/main/documentation/process.md
17:17:59 <katez> @jamescraig: only those of us on the github team can add labels
17:18:00 <smockle> q+
17:18:38 <katez> spectranaut_: we can add the labels during triage
17:18:45 <melsumner> +1 to adding the label during triage
17:18:47 <spectranaut_> q?
17:19:07 <katez> jamesn: we can see if a label isn't there pretty easily and one of us can add it
17:19:31 <katez> dmontalvo: we can double check
17:19:41 <spectranaut_> ack smockle
17:19:56 <katez> smockle: we can create automation and look at the changed files or pulling it from the title
17:20:04 <katez> smockle: from the github side it is possible
17:20:43 <katez> spectranaut_: it's related to which spec you're editing. if it's an editorial PR, starting with "editorial:" is very important because we're pulling info from the commits
17:20:51 <katez> spectranaut_: the changelog in aria
17:20:52 <aardrian> q?
17:20:57 <aardrian> q+
17:21:07 <katez> spectranaut_: the changelog filters out editorial changes
17:21:23 <katez> aardrian: is this documented somewhere?
17:21:36 <katez> spectranaut_: it's linked in the IRC, there is a process document
17:21:39 <jcraig> q+
17:21:41 <spectranaut_> another link to the process document: https://github.com/w3c/aria/blob/main/documentation/process.md
17:21:45 <spectranaut_> ack aardrian
17:21:46 <aardrian> Now you're making fun of me. Which is warranted.
17:22:01 <spectranaut_> ack jcraig
17:22:10 <katez> jcraig: is this also updated in the PR template?
17:22:23 <siri> siri has joined #aria
17:22:35 <siri> Present+
17:23:02 <katez> jamesn: if you forget it's not the end of the world, if we fix it before it's merged, it'll be okay
17:23:21 <katez> Zakim, next item
17:23:21 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> Spec for menu/menuitem does not provide enough author guidance for structure https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2300 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:24:06 <katez> Zakim, close this item
17:24:06 <Zakim> agendum 6 closed
17:24:07 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:24:07 <Zakim> 7. -> Non-aria way to declare an svg as presentational https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2313 [from agendabot]
17:24:30 <katez> Zakim, next item
17:24:30 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- -> Non-aria way to declare an svg as presentational https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2313 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:24:44 <jamesn> agenda+ Spec for menu/menuitem does not provide enough author guidance for structure https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2300
17:24:50 <jamesn> agenda?
17:25:17 <katez> spectranaut_: is there something further to discuss svg as presentational?
17:25:33 <katez> spectranaut_: this was not discussed last week
17:26:01 <jamesn> q+
17:26:37 <katez> scott: I wanted to add something to the HTML select, it was called out that HTML doesn't like document conformance not related to HTML, there's no official way to do it in SVG, you have to use ARIA to do it, I wanted to raise this to see if there's anything anyone could use as an existing feature to indicate that an SVG is decorative
17:27:23 <katez> scott: can't use an empty title; curious what other people think or if there's something else we can do
17:27:27 <spectranaut_> ack jamesn
17:27:49 <katez> jamesn: I contacted the chair of the SVG working group if anyone can help take a look; they said they don't have anyone working on it right now
17:28:06 <katez> scott: I raised it here because I knew the SVG group wouldn't take it up
17:28:25 <katez> jamesn: apparently they're going to have their first meeting at the end of the month, maybe this is a good item for them to work on
17:28:44 <katez> spectranaut_: any other comments from this group, or what are our other options?
17:29:45 <Adam_Page> scribe+
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17:29:53 <katez> scott: I was initially thinking about empty title, and then make the SVG treat it as role="none", that would assume that the graphic has nothing inside of it but the text could still be treated as text
17:30:14 <jamesn> q+
17:30:47 <katez> jamesn: I would love to see the number of SVGs with empty title attributes, I suspect there are people that add it, but that's just my guess
17:31:01 <katez> aardrian: you mean empty title element
17:31:15 <katez> Zakim, next item
17:31:15 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, katez
17:31:16 <aardrian> Oh sure, now I look like the pedant.
17:31:20 <jamesn> ack me
17:31:22 <spectranaut_> agenda?
17:31:49 <katez> Zakim, take up item 9
17:31:49 <Zakim> agendum 9 -- Spec for menu/menuitem does not provide enough author guidance for structure https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2300 -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:32:02 <jamesn> zakim, close item 7
17:32:02 <Zakim> agendum 7, -> Non-aria way to declare an svg as presentational https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2313, closed
17:32:04 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:32:04 <Zakim> 8. -> 9.3 Presentational Roles Conflict Resolution does not consider custom element use cases https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2303 [from agendabot]
17:32:14 <jamesn> zakim, take up item 9
17:32:14 <Zakim> agendum 9 -- Spec for menu/menuitem does not provide enough author guidance for structure https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2300 -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:34:13 <jcraig> q+
17:35:42 <spectranaut_> ack jcraig
17:35:45 <katez> aaronlev: describes the issue, basically a SR would have to work backwards from a submenu to get to the parent menu
17:35:59 <katez> jcraig: are you talking about the accessibility sibling?
17:36:25 <katez> aaronlev: I put that as a criticism in the authoring text because it said sibling but not what type of sibling, but i thought the text they already had was pretty good
17:36:34 <jcraig> s/accessibility sibling?/accessibility sibling of the parent menu, which could get around generic div in-betweeners?/
17:36:56 <smockle> q+
17:37:08 <jcraig> q+
17:37:27 <aardrian> q+
17:37:29 <katez> aaronlev: it's pretty obvious that if you have a menuitem, but you want to get the parent menu, but it would be good to have some clarification for Talkback
17:37:52 <katez> @mattking: we have aria-controls, which is specified in the parent
17:38:07 <katez> aaronlev: does it say to use aria controls from the parent menu?
17:38:09 <jcraig> q+ to clarify aria-owns could handle all the scenarios with non DOM sibling, accessibility siblings
17:38:46 <katez> aaronlev: apg has some text about the sibling structure
17:39:22 <spectranaut_> ack smockle
17:39:23 <katez> aaronlev: the algorithm should be to use aria-controls, but if it's not there then the fall back would be to use the parent and then the sibling
17:39:49 <katez> smockle: it's pretty common to have an unordered list, then another unordered list as a child
17:39:50 <jcraig> q+ to clarify I'm not lost in the controlled-by relationship
17:40:03 <katez> aaronlev: non-generic accessible tree
17:40:14 <scott> q+ to ask if clarifying this would resolve the issues i linked in Aaron's issue
17:40:28 <jcraig> q+ matt
17:40:32 <jcraig> ack jcraig
17:40:32 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to clarify aria-owns could handle all the scenarios with non DOM sibling, accessibility siblings and to clarify I'm not lost in the controlled-by relationship
17:40:38 <smockle> q?
17:41:10 <katez> jcraig: wanted to clarify that aria-owns handles all the relationships for menu parent where it's the non-dom parent, any non-dom relationship can be handled by aria-owns
17:41:35 <katez> aaronlev: by the time AT gets to it, it doesn't know the relationship
17:41:53 <katez> aaronlev: are you talking about the natural dom or the flat dom?
17:42:43 <katez> jcraig: you would have a controlledby relationship by the parent menuitem not the parent menu, I haven't seen that.
17:43:21 <katez> aaronlev: parent menu item has aria controls on it and that points to the menu that is open
17:44:46 <katez> jcraig: it would be good surveying from the primary components from popular js libraries, but I don't know of any spidering tools on the web that would handle it
17:45:43 <katez> BGaraventa: discussing elements that could have something in between them
17:46:06 <spectranaut_> I don't see aria-controls on this page: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/patterns/menubar/examples/menubar-navigation/ or https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/patterns/menubar/
17:46:18 <spectranaut_> q?
17:46:20 <spectranaut_> q+
17:46:33 <spectranaut_> ack aardrian
17:46:36 <spectranaut_> ack spectranaut_
17:46:57 <katez> aardrian: aria controls is not mentioned in the apg page. it should only be used as an override to a structure
17:47:24 <spectranaut_> ack scott
17:47:24 <Zakim> scott, you wanted to ask if clarifying this would resolve the issues i linked in Aaron's issue
17:48:21 <katez> scott: wanted to reference an old issue I made, menuitem doesn't have children presentation, people would be nesting menus inside of menuitems. Wanted clarification about how we should be nesting
17:49:04 <katez> jcraig: I recommended aria controls, and then then parent, then the parent menu item, then back down to the aria-selected one. There's a complicated algorithm
17:49:31 <katez> scott: when I hear parent menu item, the submenu is nested in the menu
17:51:20 <katez> BGaraventa: when you have the menu item on the parent node, people will put active elements inside of that, and usually those are rendered by links, inside that you'd have the focusable link, then you'd have the sibling menu, historically it's always been very problematic, and causes issues for SRs. Over the years we've had many discussions in APG
17:51:21 <katez> where menuitem role should always be on the active element interacted with the AT
17:51:30 <spectranaut_> ack matt
17:51:48 <katez> mattking: we took out aria controls based on feedback, people didn't want it to be a required thing
17:52:56 <katez> mattking: we still recommend the structure where the parent menu item where the submenu is contained within the parentmenu and that's how you get the relationship. one thing about the spec is that aaron, were you asking where in the spec language where the child, controlled menu is an accessible child, of the accessible parent menu item?
17:53:48 <katez> aaronlev: I'm just asking that the menu structure is understood by AT like tree structure, AT needs to know the menu structures and be able to navigate it, in this case, like labelling the menu with the parent menu's name
17:54:16 <giacomo-petri> q+ about tree and treeitem
17:54:25 <katez> mattking: I'm pretty sure it currently states that tree item contains other tree items, this would be the same concept
17:54:49 <katez> BGaraventa: I've seen that in trees where levels aren't calculated correctly
17:54:55 <giacomo-petri> q+ to talk about tree and treeitems based on last Matt feedback
17:55:25 <katez> mattking: and that hasn't been the case for menus, but I think aaron is saying that it would be better that the spec required...but people might not like that it's required
17:55:49 <katez> mattking: not sure what to do from a spec point of view, or that it would be an improvement for mobile devices.
17:55:56 <spectranaut_> ack giacomo-petri
17:55:56 <Zakim> giacomo-petri, you wanted to talk about tree and treeitems based on last Matt feedback
17:56:46 <katez> giacomo-petri: we found inconsistencies and conflicts in terms of accessibility parent roles and children for tree role, and there's already a ticket pending reviews until december and it should be addressed because of the conflict
17:56:56 <jcraig> giacomo-petri: do you have the link to the issue?
17:57:03 <katez> spectranaut_: if there are old items, please add agenda to the issue
17:57:21 <sarah> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1120
17:57:26 <melsumner> p+
17:57:35 <giacomo-petri> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2315 and https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2094
17:57:47 <katez> spectranaut_: it seems like figuring out the algorithm is still on the table and open to feedback
17:58:12 <katez> jcraig: if we figure out all the edge-cases, it feels like there should be a tree and/or menu algorithm defined somewhere
17:58:13 <sarah> q+
17:59:39 <katez> sarah: my PR has a bunch of role updates and allows x referenced, but if we add menuitem and tree, let me know if I need to make a bigger issue, we might need a more formal way of defining children and children presentational
18:00:14 <sarah> ack me
18:00:15 <katez> aaronlev: we're getting closer to an answer to this issue
18:00:18 <spectranaut_> ack sarah
18:00:47 <katez> aaronlev: we don't want to have another accname
18:02:42 <katez> I rejoined the meeting
18:05:36 <spectranaut_> s/the meeting/today's meeting/
18:07:54 <katez> s/@mattking/mattking/
18:08:12 <katez> rrsagent, make minutes
18:08:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/22-aria-minutes.html katez
18:09:33 <katez> s/@jamescraig/jcraig/
18:09:41 <katez> rrsagent, make minutes
18:09:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/22-aria-minutes.html katez
18:10:27 <spectranaut_> zakim, end meeting
18:10:27 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been giacomo-petri, katez, Adam_Page, jcraig, sarah, StefanS, smockle, filippo-zorzi, scott, Daniel, keithamus, BGaraventa, jamesn, aardrian,
18:10:30 <Zakim> ... siri
18:10:30 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
18:10:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/22-aria-minutes.html Zakim
18:10:37 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, spectranaut_; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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