19:01:08 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-at
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19:01:24 <jugglinmike> rrsagent, make log public
19:01:30 <jugglinmike> Zakim, start the meeting
19:01:30 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
19:01:32 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jugglinmike
19:01:51 <jugglinmike> Meeting: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group Weekly Teleconference
19:02:02 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
19:02:04 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
19:02:09 <jugglinmike> present+ IsaDC
19:02:24 <jugglinmike> present+ Joe_Humbert
19:02:56 <howard-e> howard-e has joined #aria-at
19:03:59 <jugglinmike> present+ howard-e
19:04:17 <jugglinmike> present+ Matt_King
19:04:29 <jugglinmike> Topic: Review agenda and next meeting dates
19:04:39 <jugglinmike> mattl: Requests for changes to agenda?
19:04:49 <jugglinmike> s/mattl/Matt_King/g
19:05:13 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I have to leave early; can we discuss Testing action menu button with activeDescendant first?
19:05:15 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Sure
19:05:29 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next community group meeting: Wednesday August 28
19:05:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next AT Driver Subgroup meeting: Monday September 9
19:06:00 <jugglinmike> Topic: Testing action menu button with activeDescendant
19:06:22 <jugglinmike> present+ James_Scholes
19:06:49 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: We had reports that people were getting different results when they were using the VoiceOver "recorder" feature
19:07:06 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: Specifically, it seems to occur when arrowing through the menu with "quick nav" off
19:08:01 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: Upon further investigation, the presence of the recorder appears to be a red herring; VoiceOver's behavior is simply inconsistent
19:09:03 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This sounds like a potential browser problem
19:09:34 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So you're saying that when we run the setup script to open the menu, the response from VoiceOver can be different than if you open the menu just by pressing Ctrl+Option+Space
19:09:48 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: That's right. It's very odd because they do the same thing
19:10:19 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: The interesting thing about this case is that pressing the button manually also changes your focus. In theory, there should be no difference between pressing one button and pressing another
19:10:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Doesn't the menu code set aria-activedescendant?
19:10:44 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: Yes
19:11:09 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I also tried clicking the button, but that actually made the output even worse
19:11:16 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Do we know which results are correct?
19:11:35 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: The people I polled on social media were hearing only the name of the item and not the role
19:12:08 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: So we don't know which is correct, but we know which one we get most of the time
19:13:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This sounds like a great conversation to have with James Craig, and it might be best had in person. That's good because TPAC is coming up
19:13:23 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I was also wondering whether this could be related to different versions
19:13:32 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: We were testing on 14.6.1
19:13:42 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Ok, good. I was, too
19:14:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So you talked to people outside of this project, James_Scholes?
19:14:19 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: Yes, because I thought it had something to do with the AppleScript
19:14:46 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: But the people I asked couldn't get it to trigger the behavior even when they used their own techniques
19:15:32 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: When we enabled the recorder by pressing the global shortcut key, VoiceOver itself did something strange. Just starting recording caused VoiceOver to speak
19:15:57 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: It's possible that there is some crossover between multiple bugs, but we were able to reproduce the reported behavior even without enabling the recorder
19:17:08 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: The people I asked may not have been using precisely the same version of VoiceOver
19:17:29 <jugglinmike> s/VoiceOver/VoiceOver as IsaDC and Joe_Humbert and me/
19:17:56 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: If the reported output includes "menu item", you should be able to just delete "menu item" and then it should be the same
19:18:39 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I know one person was using 14.5, for instance
19:19:11 <jugglinmike> s/may not have been/were not/
19:20:14 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Is there a way to have quicker feedback when we're getting these conflicts? Just so we don't have to wait for this meeting
19:21:08 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There are W3C Slack channels, but I think the question is whether or not James_Scholes or IsaDC or Sam at PAC would be able to monitor
19:21:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I personally would not be able to keep up
19:21:20 <jugglinmike> present+ Hadi
19:21:27 <jugglinmike> Hadi: What about using the mailing list?
19:22:13 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I am capable to join another Slack channel, but I also think the mailing list is an under-used resource
19:22:41 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I have posted things to the mailing list, but I haven't received responses when I did. I had to wait for the next meeting, anyway
19:24:09 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If IsaDC can answer via e-mail... I know I can only check the list a few times a week. But the more people who can help out in terms of responding, the better
19:25:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Anything else on this?
19:25:10 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: We need an NVDA tester
19:25:56 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Besides the conflicts, I'm done testing with VoiceOver, so I can volunteer for NVDA
19:32:37 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: We've recently changed two tests, so that explains why Joe_Humbert is reporting that two of the AT responses he recorded are now missing
19:38:24 <jugglinmike> [general discussion about the design of the test plan navigation buttons for Testers]
19:42:52 <jugglinmike> Topic: Testing of disclosure navigation menu
19:43:10 <jugglinmike> Hadi: I have a question about interpreting "list boundary is conveyed"
19:43:37 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I believe we talked about this last week and agreed to remove some of these assertions as unnecessary
19:43:47 <jugglinmike> Hadi: I am thinking specifically about test number 4
19:44:37 <jugglinmike> Hadi: We are leaving a list and expect to see a list boundary. But in a previous test, when we press "Shift+Tab", we leave the list, but there is no expectation about the list boundary
19:45:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think James_Scholes is correct, and I think the "list boundary" assertion should be removed from this test, as well
19:45:54 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: When you tab into the list, I think a lot of screen readers tell you that you are going into it. I think we agreed that since it's container information, it should be optional
19:47:59 <jugglinmike> Hadi: If we press Shift+B or Shift+F, are we expecting that we are leaving a list?
19:48:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't think we're asserting anything like that
19:48:22 <jugglinmike> Hadi: List boundary is part of the test
19:48:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Correct; we are going to remove those assertions
19:52:54 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I think we need an issue for all of these changes because we've accrued a lot of ideas
19:54:18 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm looking at test 10 and 11 right now...
19:54:45 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: Is it fair to say we're removing duplicate assertions? If there are multiple assertions related to the list, they need to be de-duplicated
19:54:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Yes, I think that's true in all of these cases
19:55:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: When you tab into the list from the button and the list is expanded, JAWS (and I'm pretty sure NVDA) says "list of four items" and then "overview"
19:55:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: "list of four items" is also what the text of a boundary is
19:56:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If we use the assertion "conveys list boundary", it sort of captures all of that
19:56:29 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If we were to use, instead of "list boundary", we could use two assertions: one for "list" role and one for the number of items
19:56:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think the "list boundary" assertion is more clear
19:57:05 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I agree
19:57:36 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: Wanting to know that I've crossed out of the list is very different than wanting to know the size of the list
19:58:15 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: To do item number 1: when we're navigating past a list boundary, we want to use an assertion for list boundary and not for the "list" role or the number of items
19:59:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Number 2: any commands where it jumps over, we want to make the boundary assertion optional
20:00:15 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: Are we saying that there shouldn't be any assertions for "role" and "number of items" in the entire plan?
20:00:18 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think so
20:00:47 <jugglinmike> Hadi: To me, that information is essential
20:01:26 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I think that when you navigate out of a list, I think it's fine for the AT to convey that boundary without saying the number of items, the name of the list, etc.
20:01:39 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: But when you enter a list, I think that information is important
20:01:44 <jugglinmike> Hadi: Agreed
20:02:11 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I can make a pull request and summarize the changes in the description and send it to the mailing list
20:03:14 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If we find out that there are some differences in expectation when we actually review this preview, then we can talk them out
20:03:43 <jugglinmike> Hadi: Should I put my testing work on hold, given that the tests are in flux?
20:03:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Yes, that seems wise
20:04:14 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
20:04:15 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, IsaDC, Joe_Humbert, howard-e, Matt_King, James_Scholes, Hadi
20:04:16 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
20:04:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/22-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim
20:04:24 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
20:04:24 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-at
20:04:38 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent, leave
20:04:38 <RRSAgent> I see no action items