18:02:54 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 18:02:58 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/08/20-aria-apg-irc 18:03:03 arigilmore has joined #aria-apg 18:03:07 present+ 18:03:16 rrsagent, make log public 18:03:23 Zakim, start the meeting 18:03:23 RRSAgent, make logs Public 18:03:25 Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force 18:03:28 present+ jugglinmike 18:03:32 scribe+ jugglinmike 18:03:49 present+ 18:04:27 Topic: Setup and Review Agenda 18:04:45 present+ Matt_King 18:05:40 OliverH5 has joined #aria-apg 18:06:02 siri has joined #aria-apg 18:06:24 present+ howard-e 18:06:28 present+ OliverH5 18:07:03 Adam_Page_ has joined #aria-apg 18:07:08 present+ dmontalvo 18:07:20 present+ 18:12:57 Matt_King: Any requests for change to agenda? 18:13:04 Matt_King: Hearing none, we'll stick with what we have planned 18:13:09 Matt_King: Next meeting: August 27 18:13:15 Topic: Publication planning 18:13:24 Matt_King: Next publication date is September 10 18:14:17 Matt_King: I didn't add Adam_Page_'s current work to this milestone 18:14:32 Matt_King: But if we could land it before TPAC, it would be really useful to have it in APG 18:14:49 Matt_King: Do you think it's realistic for us to get the feedback and etc implemented over the next couple weeks? 18:14:57 Adam_Page_: I think so, yes 18:15:42 dmontalvo: We could handle a release on September 17 if necessary, but any later than that would be tight for TPAC 18:17:04 dmontalvo: Publication PRs should be assigned to a new colleague at the W3C--I will send their contact information out soon 18:17:21 dmontalvo: Shawn will continue to act as a reviewer 18:17:29 Matt_King: Understood 18:18:02 Matt_King: We're going to try to shoot for September 10, but it's good to know we can move it back if necessary 18:19:02 Topic: Fix for kbd elements 18:19:10 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3093 18:19:28 Matt_King: This is another one of those old patches that needed to be refactored and redone 18:19:44 Matt_King: The changes are simple; just need checking to make sure the search/replace didn't produce any unexpected and undesirable results. 18:20:29 Matt_King: This patch transforms 2- and 3-chord key commands according to how the "kbd" element is intended to be used 18:20:44 Adam_Page_: I can review that 18:20:49 arigilmore: I can review, as well 18:21:00 Matt_King: Great; I'll add you both 18:21:35 Matt_King: I'm not going to add a review checklist like we normally do because this one is so simple 18:21:45 Topic: Updating the code guide 18:22:00 Matt_King: OliverH5 is working on implementing the requested changes 18:22:58 OliverH5: My manager would like to know how many hours of labor this will require because I would like to do this "on the clock" 18:23:18 Matt_King: The suggestions that were in the issue are for just this one page, just updating the code guide itself 18:23:38 Matt_King: When it comes to updating the APG to be in line with the code guide, that will be a whole different effort 18:23:46 OliverH5: Ah, now I understand 18:27:09 Matt_King: In this pull request, I took the wiki content and just copied it into a Markdown file in the repository 18:27:17 Matt_King: It's ready for your contribution, OliverH5 18:27:55 Matt_King: Also, a lot of what should be in the CONTRIBUTING.md file is currently in the README.md file. I think I'll leave that for another day, though 18:28:03 Topic: Sortable table caption 18:28:16 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3072 18:28:50 Matt_King: In the sortable table example, there's a caption on the table. The capture: a phrase, followed by a comma, followed by another phrase 18:29:12 Matt_King: Someone pointed out that the comma is not a very good syntactic structure because the comma is off-screen 18:29:29 Matt_King: So we're removing it in favor of using a space as a separator 18:30:01 Matt_King: At the moment in the patch, though, even though I can observe a space in the code, JAWS appears to be rendering without the space 18:30:34 arigilmore: I haven't had a chance to investigate further since you reported that, though I know there's no problem with VoiceOver. I'll be sure to look into it with JAWS 18:30:43 s/into it/in to it/ 18:30:58 Matt_King: I didn't try this in Firefox, actually 18:31:29 Matt_King: Firefox has TWO spaces! 18:31:54 Adam_Page_: I remember a similar issue coming up on a WPT test that I wrote. Something to do with a link or a button, if I recall correctly 18:32:07 Matt_King: This might be a browser bug and no problem with arigilmore's code 18:32:12 arigilmore: Interesting... 18:33:16 Adam_Page_: Reviewing the pull request, now, I can see a space at the beginning of the "span" element 18:33:44 arigilmore: What do you think if I use an HTML entity like " "? 18:34:10 Adam_Page_: I was thinking about that, too; you might also try the "breaking space" entity (although it probably doesn't matter too much because this is off-screen) 18:34:26 Matt_King: Yeah, let's try an entity, arigilmore 18:35:09 Topic: Tabs with action buttons 18:35:20 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3071 18:35:27 Matt_King: Our very first experimental example 18:35:37 Matt_King: There's a preview link in the first comment on the pull request 18:36:35 Adam_Page_: I was excited about this because I've been following aria-actions since its early days 18:36:55 Adam_Page_: And because I had a use for it during my day-job at Intel a while back 18:37:17 s/a while back/a couple years ago/ 18:37:46 Adam_Page_: I reviewed the issue that's attached to this pull request, and I found your exploration of six possibilties 18:37:59 Adam_Page_: I chose number 4 because that's the most like the one that I'd tried previously 18:38:25 Adam_Page_: Essentially, it was making the additional button inside the tab to be focusable only when the tab itself is focused 18:39:09 Adam_Page_: If you're tabbing through the page, and you arrive on the first tab, but then you hit the arrow key, you'll move focus to one of the unselected tabs 18:39:27 Matt_King: I think this is good for people to play with it and see what they think 18:39:38 Matt_King: I just like that I can arrow across the tabs and the buttons aren't in my way 18:40:44 Matt_King: The one thing I was thinking about when tabbing to that actions button: as a screen reader user, I hear "Carl Anderson tab action buttons menu". I was thinking that, from a labeling perspective, it might be better if it said, "Actions for Carl Anderson menu" 18:41:20 Matt_King: That way, I would only have to hear one word to know the element that I'm on. That would be especially helpful for long tab names, where you would have to wait a while to learn that information 18:41:28 Adam_Page_: That makes sense to me 18:41:51 Adam_Page_: Cognitively, it makes the most sense to lead with the most important piece of information 18:42:29 Adam_Page_: I know aria-labeledby can be dicey with localized content 18:42:42 q+ 18:42:56 Adam_Page_: I'm glad that you like that you can use the arrow keys like that. That was a primary motivation for my choice of the fourth alternative 18:43:24 Matt_King: There was also the option of left- and right- arrows moving through the tabs and the down arrow selects 18:43:39 Matt_King: But I'm really curious to learn how people respond to this when they try it out 18:43:50 arigilmore: In Carbon, we have a similar interaction with tabs 18:44:06 Matt_King: So, it's already showing up in design systems working this way. That's good feedback! 18:46:34 Adam_Page_: I also wanted to ask how best to demonstrate the fake operations 18:46:55 Adam_Page_: I didn't know how far to take those kind of "mock operations" 18:47:21 Matt_King: I love the copy-to-clipboard one because it doesn't have to change the state of the page 18:47:31 q? 18:47:36 Matt_King: So what if we only had two actions here, since the idea is only to demonstrate that its a menu 18:47:42 s/its a/it's a/ 18:48:05 Matt_King: Implementing "move" is cool, but it's a bunch of complicated code that doesn't really add demonstration value 18:48:31 Matt_King: The "close" one is interesting because people always ask about close e.g. where focus should go 18:48:44 Matt_King: So that might be a good one to do because it answers some accessibility questions 18:48:53 Matt_King: So maybe just "Copy" and "Close", then 18:49:16 dmontalvo: "Close" raises a lot of questions 18:49:22 Matt_King: And I'd like to answer them! 18:49:57 here’s where I landed on this a couple years ago: https://adampage.github.io/a11y_tab_widget/tests/closeable-tabs.html 18:50:15 Matt_King_ has joined #aria-apg 18:51:01 Matt_King: I was thinking that if you're deleting the first one, then the second one would get focus. If you're deleting the last one, you focus the one that was prior 18:52:36 looks like carbon has similar functionality for that as well: https://react.carbondesignsystem.com/?path=/story/components-tabs--dismissable 18:52:37 Adam_Page_: Adding this functionality would be relatively easy if I could just modify the existing tabs JavaScript, but would you see that as polluting the existing code? 18:52:59 Matt_King_: I think we should make a copy for tabs-actions.js (or similar) just so we keep the simplest examples with the simplest code 18:53:56 arigilmore: I kind of thought the arrows just meant that, "oh I'm looking down now", so I'm wondering if an ellipsis would work 18:54:27 Adam_Page_: Absolutely; I was trying to re-use a design from elsewhere in the APG (the menu), but i could go either way 18:55:04 Adam_Page_: I might poll some of my colleagues to see if they have input because I had the same intuition as arigilmore 18:56:06 Topic: Combobox change event question 18:56:13 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3095 18:59:57 Adam_Page_: If I'm understanding correctly, the reporter is using the combobox pattern, but they want an "onchange" event that they would get with a standard "select" element 19:00:20 Matt_King: But we would only do that if we were writing the combobox code to be reusable 19:00:38 Adam_Page_: Right--if, for instance, we wanted our own example to take advantage of such an event 19:00:58 Matt_King_: That was my gut instinct on how to respond 19:02:08 Zakim, end the meeting 19:02:08 As of this point the attendees have been howard-e, jugglinmike, arigilmore, Matt_King, OliverH5, dmontalvo, Adam_Page_ 19:02:10 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 19:02:12 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/20-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim 19:02:19 I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 19:02:19 Zakim has left #aria-apg 19:02:21 RRSAgent, leave 19:02:21 I see no action items