18:00:45 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 18:00:49 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/08/06-aria-apg-irc 18:01:01 rrsagent, make log public 18:01:07 Zakim, start the meeting 18:01:07 RRSAgent, make logs Public 18:01:09 Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force 18:01:11 howard-e has joined #aria-apg 18:01:25 Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force Weekly Teleconference 18:01:46 present+ jugglinmike 18:01:47 present+ 18:01:55 scribe+ jugglinmike 18:03:41 OliverH has joined #aria-apg 18:05:09 OliverH has joined #aria-apg 18:10:37 Topic: Setup and Review Agenda 18:10:52 Matt_King: Next meeting: August 13 18:10:59 Matt_King: Any requests for change to agenda? 18:11:10 Matt_King: Hearing none, we'll stick with the agenda as planned 18:11:27 Topic: Publication planning 18:12:02 Matt_King: Howard made a pull request to publish 5 other pull requests 18:14:00 CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg 18:14:24 present+ 18:14:37 Matt_King: I'm tentatively suggesting September 9th as the due date for next publication 18:14:46 Matt_King: That will make it viable to share at TPAC 18:15:03 present+ dmontalvo 18:15:07 dmontalvo: That should work 18:15:17 howard-e: That's fine for me, as well 18:15:26 Matt_King: Alright, we'll set that as our target 18:15:43 Matt_King: I think there's one pull request that I already merged for that 18:16:07 Matt_King: It was a straightforward editorial correction 18:16:25 Matt_King: I'm working on one related to the use of the "kbd" tag 18:16:41 Matt_King: There's also one about jongund's work with high contrast 18:16:58 Matt_King: And work on sortable tables that ariellagilmore is working on 18:17:05 Matt_King: So, we have a start on the next publication 18:17:15 Matt_King: And we'll probably add more to the milestone later 18:17:22 Topic: Code guide updates 18:17:27 present+ OliverH 18:17:43 OliverH: I reviewed the code guides that we referenced at our previous meeting 18:18:03 OliverH: I tried to match the assumptions in the thread with the content in those guides, and I gave recommendations for each 18:18:11 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3060 18:18:44 Matt_King: I think I would like to move the content of the guide guide out of the wiki because we can't submit pull requests against the wiki 18:18:55 Matt_King: We do have a place in the APG for information like this 18:19:15 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/Code-Guide 18:19:18 Matt_King: If I created a "shell" page for this, would you be willing to draft a patch that relocates the content? 18:19:27 OliverH: Sure 18:21:16 OliverH: I'll plan to submit this with one commit that simply relocates the information and a separate commit that proposes changes so that it's easier to understand the modifications we're considering 18:21:19 Matt_King: That sounds great! 18:21:27 Siri has joined #aria-apg 18:22:18 Topic: Long term plans for HTML examples 18:22:26 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2770 18:24:17 Matt_King: There are a couple of things we'd have to work out if we were going to start building native HTML examples that are equivalent to the current examples but that essentially avoid using ARIA as much as possible 18:24:35 Matt_King: That doesn't necessarily mean "zero" ARIA, but it means minimal ARIA and JavaScript 18:25:06 Matt_King: Some of them may end up being trivial. For the button, for example, it might not even be worth having a dedicated page at all 18:25:43 Matt_King: We definitely want to do this over time; this is part of our expanded mission 18:25:57 Matt_King: But what's the best way to fit it into the APG in a consistent manner? 18:26:24 Matt_King: Do we just want separate examples? Or do we want additional sections in the existing examples? 18:27:11 jongund: We generally want people to use native semantics. 18:27:39 jongund: A lot of people use "link" elements to create things that act like buttons. 18:28:06 jongund: We do it ourselves in two examples, but neither of them are something I think we want to promote. You should be using "button" elements 18:28:20 jongund: For us, I think we need more explanation about that 18:29:03 Matt_King: We do that to some extent. In the menu bar pattern, we say "the disclosure is the simpler pattern; only use menu bar if the following things are true [...]" 18:29:26 Matt_King: So we can steer people from one pattern to another. That part, we kind of already know how to do 18:30:37 Matt_King: We can follow that exact same kind of pattern--we have quite a few places where we definitely want to separate content, already 18:31:15 Matt_King: Across the board, it's better when we have exactly one example per page. Right now, though, we have three examples for the button. Separating them out would make this easier 18:31:35 Matt_King: We don't have that problem for disclosure, though, so starting out with disclosure might be easier, since it's already a separate page 18:32:17 Matt_King: That's one way we could do things at the level of the examples, but I'm kind of wondering if there's a way we can address this at the level of the patterns 18:32:36 Matt_King: We currently list two sets of requirements: keyboard requirements and role-stated requirements 18:32:49 Matt_King: Those are making assumptions, but they aren't maximizing the use of ARIA--that's for sure 18:33:20 Matt_King: If were were adding information about how to minimize the use of ARIA, it seems like we'd have to do that on all the pattern pages... And we'd want to do that in a really consistent way 18:33:36 jongund: It's a tough problem, architecturally at least 18:34:04 jongund: In general, we want to promote native semantics for HTML. But using native semantics doesn't necessarily mean you wouldn't use ARIA at all 18:34:15 jongund: It's not a question of "all ARIA or no ARIA" 18:40:44 jongund: What's the relationship between APG and the developing WAI tutorials? 18:40:52 Matt_King: We might just link to those tutorials 18:42:00 Matt_King: Maybe there isn't a single treatment for this topic; maybe it does need to be decided on a pattern-by-pattern basis 18:42:29 Matt_King: For some (like summary details and disclosure), we might just add a note to the examples which direct readers to the preferred approach... 18:42:47 Matt_King: I don't think we'll be doing this overnight; I think we'll do it bit-by-bit with tiny pull requests 18:43:16 Matt_King: Maybe someone should set up a project to review all of the patterns and decide how we'll approach this 18:43:30 jongund: Should we just start with disclosure since that's what this issue is about? 18:44:29 Matt_King: Well, there's some value in thinking about this holistically before moving in any particular direction so that we know we're approaching a complete solution 18:45:17 Matt_King: I don't know where this sits in the big picture of our overall roadmap 18:45:26 Matt_King: We're also considering refactoring the landmark examples, for instance 18:46:36 Matt_King: I think we need someone who has plenty of time and is ready to spend several months on it 18:46:46 OliverH5 has joined #aria-apg 18:48:13 jongund: It seems like at least for the disclosure, we could at least create an example that uses details-summary and show that you don't need to explicitly add these attributes and manage them 18:48:27 Sorry but my connection keeps dropping out and I can barely hear full sentences, neither can I see the shared screen :/ 18:48:27 Matt_King: We'd need a different kind of editorial copy in the example page, but we could work that out 18:50:57 Topic: Design keyboard interface for tabs with action buttons 18:51:03 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3070 18:51:18 Matt_King: Adam Page will be joining the meeting next week, and I think he has volunteered to take this one one 18:51:32 Matt_King: It will be our first experimental example. It's very simple 18:51:53 Matt_King: Most of the authoring requirements for aria-actions are pretty straightfoward 18:52:02 Matt_King: One of them, though, opens a lot of questions 18:52:15 Matt_King: It's about the way actions are focusable 18:52:26 Matt_King: There are a couple ways of doing that 18:52:47 Matt_King: I just started brainstorming and made a list of ideas; they're available in my most recent comment on the issue 18:52:57 Matt_King: I don't know if there are any conventions here 18:53:25 present+ CurtBellew 18:53:37 CurtBellew: I don't know if we have any of these in my product 18:54:11 Matt_King: I know of an implementation that I don't like... 18:55:13 Siri has joined #aria-apg 18:56:54 dmontalvo: I think I would prefer the first of the six points you have listed here 18:57:19 dmontalvo: Though, as you note, the arrow keys depend on the orientation of the tab strip 19:00:04 Matt_King: Option 4 might work better with a vertical tab strip, and option 1 or 2 might work better with a horizontal tab strip... 19:00:20 jongund: I'd like to think about this some more 19:00:33 CurtBellew: I'd like to think on it more, too 19:06:08 jugglinmike: With vertical tab lists, I wonder if the direction of the "open" action should be informed by the document's language. Maybe it makes more sense for the "left" arrow to open a menu that's presented in a left-to-right language 19:06:29 Matt_King: That's an interesting thought and worth considering 19:06:47 Matt_King: ...but we're out of time. Thanks, everyone! 19:06:58 Zakim, end the meeting 19:06:58 As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, howard-e, CurtBellew, dmontalvo, OliverH 19:07:01 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 19:07:02 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/06-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim 19:07:10 I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 19:07:10 Zakim has left #aria-apg 19:07:44 RRSAgent, leave 19:07:44 I see no action items