IRC log of wot-profile on 2024-07-31

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:03:36 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wot-profile
13:03:41 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-wot-profile-irc
13:10:25 [kaz]
meeting: WoT Profile
13:11:09 [mjk]
mjk has joined #wot-profile
13:11:20 [kaz]
present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Luca_Barbato, Ben_Francis, Daniel_Peintner, Ege_Korkan, Michael_Koster, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Tomoaki_Mizushima
13:11:27 [kaz]
chair: Luca
13:11:37 [kaz]
rrsagent, make log public
13:11:44 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:11:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
13:13:42 [kaz]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Profile_WebConf#Profile_-_Jul_31th%2C_2024
13:14:06 [dape]
scribe: dape
13:14:49 [dape]
TOPIC: Minutes review
13:14:57 [kaz]
-> https://www.w3.org/2024/07/17-wot-profile-minutes.html July-17
13:15:45 [dape]
LB: Talked about patch w.r.t. out-of box interop
13:15:56 [dape]
... showed notes of previous meetings
13:16:04 [Tomo]
Tomo has joined #wot-profile
13:16:14 [dape]
... Ben explained what should be a profile and what not
13:16:24 [dape]
... Koster seemed to have different ideas
13:16:33 [dape]
... would like to take this topic up again
13:16:44 [dape]
LB: Any objections?
13:16:53 [dape]
... none -> Minutes approved
13:17:17 [mjk]
q+
13:17:30 [dape]
TOPIC: Profiles as Ecosystem descriptors
13:17:58 [dape]
EK: Luca, can you explain overall concept
13:18:11 [dape]
LB: Let me try to summarize
13:18:23 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:18:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
13:18:30 [dape]
... least amount of profiles... greenfield (Ben's position)
13:19:09 [dape]
... other opinion, any people greenfield is others people brownfield (Koster's position)
13:19:48 [benfrancis]
q+
13:19:58 [dape]
LB: Are we able to use our framework (or way of thinking) for greenfield or other ecosystems also
13:20:13 [benfrancis]
q-
13:20:18 [dape]
MK: greenfield vs brownfield is adequate framing
13:20:41 [dape]
... in bindings we have different protocols like HTTP and CoAP
13:21:06 [dape]
.. but we have also matter with a different protocol (e.g. Matter)
13:21:27 [dape]
... I think profile might need its own protocol
13:21:37 [Ege]
q+
13:21:52 [dape]
... profiles for ecosystems also?
13:22:03 [dape]
... not sure about difference between profile and binding
13:22:06 [luca_barbato]
q+
13:22:38 [dape]
MK: protocol binding should be focused on protocol ... rest in profile
13:22:41 [dape]
q?
13:22:45 [dape]
ack mjk
13:22:48 [mjk]
ack mjk
13:23:09 [dape]
EK: in eco systems there is also data modelling
13:23:43 [dape]
... no out-of the box interop if we can't decide on temperature format etc
13:24:02 [dape]
MK: I was thinking there other problems also
13:24:14 [dape]
... useful to have industrial IOT data-model
13:24:30 [dape]
... like temperature standardization
13:24:47 [sebastian2]
sebastian2 has joined #wot-profile
13:25:20 [dape]
q?
13:25:25 [dape]
ack e
13:25:57 [dape]
LB: We will have TD2 to describe what is used in profile
13:26:05 [dape]
... currently not the case for TD1.1
13:26:16 [dape]
... profile collections of bindings
13:26:31 [dape]
... at the same time you will have constraints
13:26:52 [dape]
... a profile is going to tell what a thing can support/implement
13:27:06 [dape]
... like a toolbox we can pick of
13:27:08 [dape]
q+
13:27:38 [dape]
LB: we don't have consensus on numbers and overlap of toolboxes
13:27:48 [luca_barbato]
q-
13:27:58 [EgeKorkan]
EgeKorkan has joined #wot-profile
13:28:17 [EgeKorkan]
q?
13:29:08 [kaz]
q?
13:29:11 [kaz]
ack d
13:29:21 [benfrancis]
q+
13:29:33 [dape]
DP: Totally agree, we should subsetting TD2.0
13:29:35 [dape]
ack dape
13:29:56 [dape]
BF: Profile should constraint not extend
13:30:10 [dape]
... distinction greenfield vs brownfield
13:30:25 [dape]
... profile vs bindings ...
13:30:50 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:30:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
13:30:57 [dape]
... prescriptive vs. descriptive
13:31:05 [sebastian2]
sorry, I have to move to another meeting. br
13:31:15 [dape]
BF: we should have as many bindings as possible but as few profiles as possible
13:31:19 [kaz]
q+
13:31:29 [kaz]
s/sorry, I have to move to another meeting. br//
13:31:33 [dape]
... e.g. don't see benefit of having Matter profile
13:31:47 [dape]
... Matter provides already guarantees
13:32:26 [EgeKorkan]
q+
13:32:31 [dape]
BF: I don''t think we should many profiles
13:32:32 [dape]
ack benfrancis
13:32:54 [dape]
Kaz: I agree with Koster and Ben
13:33:10 [benfrancis]
q+
13:33:16 [dape]
... anyhow, have difficulties to understand current position of profile
13:33:25 [dape]
... expectations for profile?
13:33:30 [dape]
ack kaz
13:34:20 [dape]
... concrete use-case ..
13:34:34 [dape]
LB: The conflicting point is not clear
13:34:56 [dape]
... just using bindings is not satisfactory
13:35:30 [dape]
... profiles towards pre-existing ecosystems
13:35:35 [kaz]
s/concrete use-case ../would see what is expected for Profile and what is expected for Binding based on some concrete use case including several Things and Consumers from several different Ecosystems./
13:35:38 [dape]
... so we can get more people on board
13:35:44 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:35:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
13:36:00 [dape]
... concern: too many profiles cause fragmentation
13:36:15 [dape]
... new adopters might get confused
13:36:42 [dape]
... small set of profiles is useful for them
13:36:55 [dape]
q?
13:37:14 [dape]
... we need a way to onboard other organizations
13:37:19 [mjk]
q?
13:37:54 [dape]
EK: distinction to be made...
13:37:54 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:37:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
13:38:04 [dape]
... small number of profiles
13:38:22 [dape]
... vs. bindings like Matter, OPCUA etc
13:38:40 [dape]
... they are out and should be usable
13:38:50 [kaz]
s/OPCUA/OPC UA/
13:38:51 [dape]
... in building automation no one will pick HTTP
13:39:05 [dape]
... most likely BACnet will be used
13:39:22 [dape]
... but they don't have thing description format
13:39:49 [dape]
... we want to have guidance .. which leads to data model ... like temperature
13:40:15 [dape]
... guidance to beginners is a valid point
13:40:23 [dape]
... anyhow, spec is already too long
13:40:28 [dape]
q?
13:40:31 [dape]
ack EgeKorkan
13:41:05 [dape]
BF: I do understand the problem of integrating new platforms
13:41:17 [dape]
... but I think profiles are the wrong tool for it
13:41:44 [dape]
... we should focus on use-cases and requirements
13:41:59 [dape]
... for profiles in the future
13:42:05 [dape]
... were I created a PR
13:42:08 [dape]
ack benfrancis
13:43:03 [dape]
LB: Besides the term we can use -- platform binding.. collection of other bindings .. for me is a profile
13:43:52 [dape]
... we can differentiate between profiles for beginners and for other systems ... technically it is the same
13:44:17 [benfrancis]
q+
13:44:48 [dape]
... new comers vs up-graders
13:45:50 [mjk]
q+
13:46:03 [dape]
BF: platform binding vs. profile
13:46:42 [luca_barbato]
q+
13:46:57 [dape]
... my proposal to solve overlap: move protocols binding into set of defaults to bindings
13:47:34 [EgeKorkan]
q+
13:47:34 [dape]
... profile becoming sub protocol ... for a given IOT platform
13:47:37 [EgeKorkan]
ack b
13:47:54 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:47:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
13:48:19 [luca_barbato]
q+
13:48:27 [luca_barbato]
q-
13:48:29 [luca_barbato]
q+
13:48:29 [dape]
MK: I am not proposing to make the sub protocols
13:48:43 [kaz]
s/IOT/IoT/
13:48:54 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:48:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
13:49:02 [dape]
... could be one of the constraint vector
13:49:18 [dape]
... component of testing/certification
13:49:31 [dape]
... not in scope of WoT
13:49:31 [benfrancis]
q?
13:49:35 [dape]
ack mjk
13:50:09 [dape]
MK: We should offer convenience people are used in other platforms like BACnet
13:50:20 [dape]
... offering device standard
13:50:27 [dape]
... or enabling consumers
13:51:31 [dape]
... interop across ecosystems
13:51:47 [mjk]
ack mjk
13:52:03 [dape]
EK: w.r.t. platform bindings
13:52:19 [dape]
... e.g. HTTP, JSON
13:52:33 [dape]
... further like JSON has to look like this....
13:52:55 [dape]
... this is the other aspect
13:52:56 [dape]
ack EgeKorkan
13:53:26 [dape]
LB: My proposal. TD2.0 should remove sub-protocol
13:53:54 [dape]
.... sub protocol is result of process
13:53:59 [dape]
ack luca_barbato
13:54:33 [dape]
LB: we have to interop/bride between eco systems
13:55:24 [dape]
... with semantics we can match Modbus values on the wire
13:55:29 [benfrancis]
q?
13:55:48 [dape]
... temperature Fahrenheit converting to Celsius
13:56:01 [dape]
... should be expressive enough
13:56:28 [dape]
... consumer should not have to implement everything
13:56:37 [dape]
... would be way to complex
13:57:03 [benfrancis]
q+
13:57:32 [dape]
BF: Profiles becoming device standard
13:57:39 [dape]
... very unlikely
13:58:00 [dape]
... more likely profiles used by bridging
13:58:17 [dape]
... cloud service monitor buildings
13:58:35 [dape]
... one profile using HTTP better than a hundred
13:59:08 [dape]
... IoT is different .. but there is value in bridging
13:59:13 [luca_barbato]
q+
13:59:27 [dape]
... btw, sub protocol keyword needed for web-socket
13:59:42 [dape]
LB: subprotol should be removed
14:00:00 [dape]
... should become first class citizen.. it is a "protocol"
14:00:15 [dape]
ack luca_barbato
14:00:18 [dape]
ack luca_barbato
14:00:24 [EgeKorkan]
q+
14:00:28 [benfrancis]
q-
14:00:28 [dape]
ack benfrancis
14:00:40 [dape]
EK: Ben' use case with gateways
14:00:52 [kaz]
s/Ben'/Ben's/
14:01:03 [dape]
... nice written TDs should be sufficient
14:01:03 [luca_barbato]
q+
14:01:08 [dape]
ack EgeKorkan
14:01:15 [dape]
acl luca_barbato
14:01:46 [dape]
LB: We have to decide whether we want to continue discussion in 2 weeks
14:02:03 [dape]
... a layer of warranting interop
14:02:22 [dape]
... thing models in a more extensive way could be used
14:02:47 [dape]
... maybe too constraining
14:03:01 [dape]
... will try to put down were we have consensus
14:03:14 [dape]
q?
14:03:17 [dape]
ack luca_barbato
14:03:55 [dape]
[adjourned]
14:04:27 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:04:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz