IRC log of matf on 2024-07-31

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:51:20 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #matf

12:51:24 [RRSAgent]

logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-matf-irc

12:51:24 [Zakim]

RRSAgent, make logs Public

12:51:25 [Zakim]

please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ

12:51:48 [JJ]

Zakim, this is MATF July 31, 2024

12:51:48 [Zakim]

got it, JJ

12:51:55 [JJ]

Meeting: MATF July 31, 2024

12:52:06 [JJ]

present+

12:52:15 [JJ]

regrets+ AlainVagner

12:53:22 [JJ]

regrets+ KarlaRubiano

12:53:28 [JJ]

regrets+ AudreyManiez

12:53:50 [JJ]

agenda+ Guidance steps

12:54:09 [JJ]

agenda+ 1.4.5 Images of Text - Level AA

12:54:14 [JJ]

agenda+ 1.4.11 Non-text Contrast - Level AA

12:54:19 [JJ]

agenda+ 2.2.1 Timing Adjustable - Level A

12:54:25 [JJ]

agenda+ 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide - Level A

13:00:16 [Joe_Humbert]

Joe_Humbert has joined #matf

13:00:34 [JJ]

regrets+ Devanshu

13:02:14 [Mick]

Mick has joined #MATF

13:02:14 [Carolina]

Carolina has joined #MATF

13:02:19 [quintinb]

quintinb has joined #MATF

13:02:24 [quintinb]

present+

13:03:11 [GleidsonRamos]

GleidsonRamos has joined #matf

13:03:34 [Joe_Humbert]

present+

13:04:08 [Mick]

present+

13:04:13 [julianmka]

julianmka has joined #MATF

13:04:21 [julianmka]

present+

13:04:46 [Carolina]

present+

13:04:49 [Jamie]

Jamie has joined #matf

13:04:54 [Jamie]

present+

13:06:15 [JJ]

move to next agendum

13:06:15 [Zakim]

agendum 1 -- Guidance steps -- taken up [from JJ]

13:07:03 [quintinb]

We now have all success criteria on Github available for async feedback

13:07:51 [quintinb]

@JJ would like to chat about the SC breakdown

13:09:32 [quintinb]

In the drive there is a breakdown file where we can sort issues by complexity of adjustment for mobile.

13:09:46 [JJ]

Link to SC breakdown: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n6_OtcWEjJOGmqFVhK7gJGk9K7FfXhpP/edit

13:10:41 [Mick]

q+

13:10:58 [JJ]

ack Mick

13:11:52 [quintinb]

JJ please don't move things, rather leave a comment

13:12:03 [JJ]

move to next agendum

13:12:03 [Zakim]

agendum 2 -- 1.4.5 Images of Text - Level AA -- taken up [from JJ]

13:12:58 [quintinb]

q+

13:13:33 [quintinb]

quintinb: Does this mean that logo's do not need alt text?

13:13:50 [quintinb]

Or should it just be the name of company?

13:13:52 [Mick]

q+

13:13:54 [JJ]

ack quintinb

13:14:33 [Joe_Humbert]

q+

13:14:46 [Joe_Humbert]

q-

13:14:55 [JJ]

ack Mick

13:15:09 [quintinb]

@JC to @quintinb 1.1.1 would still apply

13:15:39 [julianmka]

q+

13:16:44 [JJ]

ack julianmka

13:16:52 [quintinb]

@JJ we need to put guidance on for testing purposes

13:17:52 [quintinb]

julianmka - does text scaling apply? Are we creating a standard that is not necessarily seen on web

13:18:42 [quintinb]

JJ feels it applies as is

13:18:46 [quintinb]

+1

13:19:25 [quintinb]

q+

13:19:33 [JJ]

ack quintinb

13:19:51 [quintinb]

What if the text is part of a background? It's decorative

13:20:25 [Jamie]

q+

13:20:52 [quintinb]

JJ then it does not apply

13:21:14 [quintinb]

ack Jamie

13:22:17 [quintinb]

Jamie - We should use WCAG as a base reference - we shouldn't discuss issues that are already on here

13:23:10 [quintinb]

Jamie we should consider system settings as well

13:23:46 [Joe_Humbert]

q+

13:24:07 [quintinb]

Jamie we should add techniques for testing for people who don't have access to code

13:24:41 [JJ]

ack Joe_Humbert

13:25:12 [Mick]

+ 1 to what Jamie said. A lot of my thinking around this is very much a testing perspective and providing techniques for native. Totally agree with keeping things simple and not complicated things.

13:25:45 [quintinb]

Joe_Humbert: Thinks that a future goal should be for us to ask for manufacturers to give us guidance for testing with no source access

13:26:54 [JJ]

move to next agendum

13:26:54 [Zakim]

agendum 3 -- 1.4.11 Non-text Contrast - Level AA -- taken up [from JJ]

13:28:27 [Joe_Humbert]

q+

13:28:44 [Mick]

+1 to the inactive component exception being problematic.

13:28:51 [Jamie]

did we skip 1.4.10 REflow?

13:30:48 [Joe_Humbert]

+1 to the inactive component exception being problematic

13:31:18 [JJ]

ack Joe_Humbert

13:31:57 [JJ]

1.4.10 discussion @Jamie: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/4

13:32:19 [quintinb]

Joe_Humbert: About not modified by the author. This doesn't seem to be defined - what does that mean? For example, if the background colour is changed but not the component, does that not impact the contrast?

13:33:18 [julianmka]

Agree with that - thinking about iOS default palette and text styles that don't have sufficient contrast

13:34:40 [quintinb]

+1 we should not rely on manufacturers being accessible. We need to hold them accountable too

13:35:11 [quintinb]

@JJ we should create a separate ticket about user agent

13:35:13 [JJ]

ACTION: Github issue for User-Agent discussion

13:35:23 [JJ]

move to next agendum

13:35:23 [Zakim]

agendum 4 -- 2.2.1 Timing Adjustable - Level A -- taken up [from JJ]

13:36:14 [Jamie]

1.4.10 is pretty much as written anyway

13:38:02 [quintinb]

q+

13:38:23 [quintinb]

I have this somewhere, but should we mention examples where system settings allow for this, and should we give guidance on doing it in app or surfacing from settings?

13:38:32 [JJ]

ack quintinb

13:39:02 [julianmka]

q+

13:39:48 [Jamie]

+1 to @JJ to clarify how this timing adjustable applies to toast/ snackbar or future other components/ alerts as a general concept

13:41:25 [JJ]

ack julianmka

13:41:26 [quintinb]

+1 for guidance on "system" level things like snackbars

13:41:54 [JJ]

ACTION: Github issue for dealing with system settings when testing (toast length, high contrast mode, etc.)

13:42:11 [quintinb]

julianmka app makers should meet requirements without system settings being required

13:42:19 [Joe_Humbert]

+1 to developer responsibility without system settings

13:42:29 [Jamie]

q+

13:42:45 [quintinb]

adding more settings doesn't solve that either

13:43:50 [Joe_Humbert]

Quintin can you provide a link to the timing developer technique you mentioned?

13:43:52 [quintinb]

But I do agree that we should not rely on OS manufacturers

13:43:53 [JJ]

ack Jamie

13:44:03 [quintinb]

Sure Joe, after scribing :)

13:44:19 [Jamie]

q+

13:44:35 [JJ]

ack Jamie

13:44:40 [quintinb]

I found it quickly Joe_Humbert: https://support.google.com/accessibility/android/answer/9426889?sjid=18325240353724858189-EU

13:45:05 [quintinb]

Jamie: Users do expect system settings to be applied throughout apps

13:45:27 [Joe_Humbert]

thank you Quintin

13:46:07 [quintinb]

Joe_Humbert I can send you adb commands and where it exists in the ecosystem as well - if you like, but after :)

13:46:16 [quintinb]

+1 Jamie

13:46:37 [julianmka]

Agree - developers should respect system settings, and if those settings are not set, then provide an accessible experience out of the box

13:46:53 [quintinb]

Jamie system settings should form a baseline expectation, but developers maintain responsibility for their app

13:48:14 [JJ]

move to next agendum

13:48:14 [Zakim]

agendum 5 -- 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide - Level A -- taken up [from JJ]

13:48:28 [quintinb]

So many failures

13:48:34 [Joe_Humbert]

q+

13:49:03 [julianmka]

I have to drop for a work meeting. Thanks, y'all!

13:49:23 [quintinb]

adb control for ttr Joe_Humbert: settings put secure accessibility_interactive_ui_timeout_ms [MILLIS] % millis are additive - they add extra time

13:49:40 [Joe_Humbert]

thankx Quintin

13:50:37 [Joe_Humbert]

q-

13:50:45 [quintinb]

q+

13:50:59 [Joe_Humbert]

q+

13:52:16 [quintinb]

I think there should be guidance given the dominance of video on mobile - it should stay paused if the same element type is paused

13:52:52 [Mick]

+1 quintinb

13:52:55 [GleidsonRamos]

q+

13:53:20 [quintinb]

Either every element should be pause-able or at least respect settings

13:53:40 [JJ]

ack Joe_Humbert

13:53:57 [JJ]

q- quintinb

13:54:26 [quintinb]

Joe_Humbert: Just to raise: Android and iOS treat it differently when they refer to the setting - I wonder if iOS (reduce animations) is actually satisfactory

13:54:39 [quintinb]

+1 Joe - is that actually stop animations?

13:54:54 [quintinb]

I hate that terminaology - so vague

13:55:08 [Jamie]

q+

13:55:35 [JJ]

ack GleidsonRamos

13:55:50 [quintinb]

GleidsonRamos should we save the user preference in app?

13:56:02 [quintinb]

+1 GleidsonRamos yes I think there should be guidance on that

13:56:04 [Joe_Humbert]

great question

13:56:31 [quintinb]

GleidsonRamos should we sync app setting with OS setting?

13:56:38 [quintinb]

+1 yes I think that is the way

13:57:22 [JJ]

ack Jamie

13:57:22 [quintinb]

JJ there is probably some guidance on this type of situation

13:58:05 [quintinb]

Jamie: Just to clarify: there is a feature for reduce motion and auto play animated images - seems like apple has 2 settings

13:58:09 [Joe_Humbert]

+1 jamie. maybe I was confused

13:58:35 [quintinb]

We should probably be clear about what we want and let the OS sort themselves out

13:59:30 [quintinb]

JJ any new agenda items?

13:59:45 [quintinb]

JJ how do we deal with OS vs / system settings

14:00:10 [Joe_Humbert]

q+

14:00:17 [JJ]

ack Joe_Humbert

14:00:30 [quintinb]

quintinb: maybe we should just focus on the desired behaviour

14:00:49 [quintinb]

Joe_Humbert: We should honour users system settings

14:00:53 [JJ]

+1

14:00:54 [quintinb]

+1 Joe_Humbert

14:02:24 [quintinb]

JJ looking for someone to lead the meetings in Sep.

14:02:24 [quintinb]

Joe_Humbert volunteers as tribute

14:03:17 [JJ]

If anyone else wants to volunteer, please let me know

14:03:34 [Jamie]

Jamie has left #matf

14:04:34 [JJ]

(we could have different people lead meetings in September)

14:04:42 [JJ]

Zakim, list participants

14:04:42 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been JJ, quintinb, Joe_Humbert, Mick, julianmka, Carolina, Jamie

14:04:50 [JJ]

present+ GleidsonRamos

14:05:20 [JJ]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:05:21 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-matf-minutes.html JJ

14:05:50 [JJ]

rrsagent, bye

14:05:50 [RRSAgent]

I see 2 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-matf-actions.rdf :

14:05:51 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Github issue for User-Agent discussion [1]

14:05:51 [RRSAgent]

recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-matf-irc#T13-35-13

14:05:51 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Github issue for dealing with system settings when testing (toast length, high contrast mode, etc.) [2]

14:05:51 [RRSAgent]

recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-matf-irc#T13-41-54