12:44:04 RRSAgent has joined #global-inclusion 12:44:09 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-global-inclusion-irc 12:44:09 RRSAgent, make logs Public 12:44:10 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Jan 12:44:17 chair: Jan_McSorley 12:44:46 Meeting: Internationalization Accessibility Community Group (global-inclusion) 12:45:03 date: 31 07 2024 12:45:18 zakim, clear agenda 12:45:18 agenda cleared 12:47:11 Agenda+ Review minutes from the July 17, 2024 meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/07/17-global-inclusion-minutes.html 12:47:36 Agenda+ Discuss W3C’s summer vacation. COGA will not be meeting the last week of August and the first week of September. 12:48:36 Finalize the recruiting email text: https://docs.google.com/document/d/14urDbLrdkARcfQhDRUItUUYGm23bY5FAWnKx4xjpAM4/edit?usp=sharing 12:51:04 Agenda+ Discuss feedback on WCAG 3 Text and Wording Section: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cRUWjVZB_0BTQQgLm7Pm_DOMLBtpL7RcsrVwQ3ynBIA/edit?usp=sharing - (Process Document): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Yl2YMuqhwmWlOi8XC3EcFCkDTWda01zMo8GhnJrkvTg/edit?usp=sharing 12:52:02 Agenda+ Finalize the recruiting email text: https://docs.google.com/document/d/14urDbLrdkARcfQhDRUItUUYGm23bY5FAWnKx4xjpAM4/edit?usp=sharing 12:53:07 Agenda+ Discuss feedback on the Charter Document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SgfzQMEd0MYydz6WoPBbuxx5CewjiUc5bsuu592uurI/edit?usp=sharing 12:53:22 present+ 12:58:29 Philipp has joined #global-inclusion 13:01:54 Makoto has joined #global-inclusion 13:02:14 zakim, next item 13:02:14 agendum 1 -- Review minutes from the July 17, 2024 meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/07/17-global-inclusion-minutes.html -- taken up [from Jan] 13:03:42 julierawe has joined #global-inclusion 13:04:05 Google Doc Minutes: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TeGEsD1JVf7L9bFW3_e7YTnqtmUnpTldJhD6N16ElAU/edit?usp=sharing 13:04:12 Makoto1 has joined #global-inclusion 13:04:22 +present 13:05:29 present+ 13:05:45 zakim, next item 13:05:45 agendum 2 -- Discuss W3C’s summer vacation. COGA will not be meeting the last week of August and the first week of September. -- taken up [from Jan] 13:06:20 Jan, do you want me to scribe? 13:06:58 Sure, let's tag-team 13:07:17 Jan Should we take a summer break and miss our August 28th meeting? 13:07:29 Philipp I would not be able to participate on August 28th 13:07:34 Summer break - Miss August 28, 2024 - please +1 13:07:39 +1 13:07:39 +1 13:07:43 I will be on vacation :) 13:07:45 +1 13:08:04 Jan I will update that calendar invite 13:08:15 zakim, next item 13:08:15 agendum 3 -- Discuss feedback on WCAG 3 Text and Wording Section: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cRUWjVZB_0BTQQgLm7Pm_DOMLBtpL7RcsrVwQ3ynBIA/edit?usp=sharing - (Process 13:08:18 ... Document): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Yl2YMuqhwmWlOi8XC3EcFCkDTWda01zMo8GhnJrkvTg/edit?usp=sharing -- taken up [from Jan] 13:08:42 Jan Let's discuss the Text and wording section 13:09:39 WCAG 3: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cRUWjVZB_0BTQQgLm7Pm_DOMLBtpL7RcsrVwQ3ynBIA/edit?usp=sharing 13:10:03 Jan It looks like a few people have entered notes 13:10:38 kirkwood has joined #global-inclusion 13:11:29 Jan Katy is not here so let's look at Philipp's tab 13:11:53 Jan added Julie and John K to the calendar invites for the community group meetings 13:12:27 Jan added Lisa to the calendar invites 13:12:57 Jan The calendar invites will change in October to a different time of day 13:13:25 Jan Philipp, Julie and I have been discussing WCAG 13:13:46 Jan There are a couple things as a group that we need to talk through like the order of how we provide this feedback 13:13:56 Jan We also need to get through the Content Usable document 13:14:12 Philipp I don't think it makes sense to go through every single point 13:14:28 Philipp I would summarize my feedback that the outcomes are very hard to understand 13:14:46 Philipp I am not a native English speaker so I have trouble understanding the wording. 13:14:52 Philipp I am also dyslexic 13:15:29 Philipp Going through WCAG 2 I need to be able to understand the intention. We need to be able to explain these principles in ways that people who do no have a university degree can understand it 13:16:05 Philipp My main critique is that any guidelines from WCAG are not accessible to most people. 13:16:16 Philipp I see this exact wording here in this list of WCAG 3 outcomes 13:16:46 Philipp The word "verbosity" is one example. Difficult word. I looked it up for the 15th time. 13:16:56 Philipp Say "wordiness" instead. It's easier to understand. 13:17:07 Philipp I understand it needs to be brief or short. 13:17:28 Philipp We need to keep in mind the global audience and that not everyone has a university degree. 13:17:48 Philipp The first thing developers do is look at WCAG but they go away because they don't understand. 13:19:05 Julie: Philipp did a great job of explaining the language barrier. Current chairs are aware of the problem and they want to do better. In the template we are using, there's a plain language goal / description. 13:19:50 Julie: I think your feedback on the 1-sentence summary is helpful. (verbosity and conveyance) 13:20:59 Julie: It's good to get this feedback to AG early. There might be some people who will need to be convinced that technical documents need to be easier to understand. 13:21:13 Chat GPT resonse: “The interface is designed to be clear and concise, avoiding excessive or unnecessary details." 13:21:32 q+ 13:21:50 Julie: This community group is at the intersection of disability and internationalization, so feedback from this group will be very helpful. 13:23:05 Julie: We also need to go back to WCAG 2 to make it easier to understand. There'e a lot of work going on for WCAG 3, but it won't necessarily replace WCAG 2. This is a very valid concern, so I think it's important to raise this with the larger group. 13:24:57 Julie: The AG group wants people to look at this large group of outcomes, so I think it's important to provide your feedback to the AG chairs. Things like changing "verbosity" to "wordiness" 13:25:33 kirkwood I suggest putting the outcomes into an AI tool to reword more clearly 13:25:38 John: I put ChatGPT's version of the verbosity statement. 13:26:02 Jan I would like to spend some time today going through the feedback in general about just this section. 13:26:12 Jan I would like to know from Rachael if this feedback is helpful. 13:26:22 Jan We could go through item by item and highlight the feedback. 13:26:32 Jan I had similar experiences and I am a native English speaker. 13:26:41 Jan It was unclear to me what some of these thing meant. 13:26:56 Philipp You don't have a doctorate from the W3C, ha 13:27:21 Jan I didn't know what "ambiguous pronunciation" meant 13:27:30 Jan I didn't know there was such a thing as maximum contrast 13:27:43 Philipp So black on white 13:27:52 Jan I just didn't understand why that was here 13:28:06 Jan Some of this is needing time to flesh this out. 13:28:11 q+ 13:28:47 Jan We could collect comments item by item. 13:29:10 Jan There is not a Github process for reviewing the outcomes in this state, is there? 13:29:23 Jan I like John Kirkwood's idea of putting them through ChatGPT 13:29:45 Jan That could be a suggestion the groups might follow is to use AI to see if there's a simpler way to say each sentence 13:30:02 Jan Most of the time there are meetings when people aren't raising these concerns 13:31:04 kirkwood The Education and Outreach team in the past has been tasked with trying to make things easier to understand 13:31:41 kirkwood It would be great if we can write in clear, more straightforward way 13:31:58 Jan I agree with you but EO did not get their charter reviewed. 13:32:28 Jan I'm grateful for EO's work. It's still pretty overwhelming amount of content. 13:32:59 Jan There's a couple variables: the experience factor, we are familiar with looking at daunting W3C documents. 13:33:14 Jan But a lot of developers and designers out there feel overwhelmed when they come to this body of work. 13:33:30 Philipp We could try to update the current WCAG documents. 13:33:53 Philipp Even the explanations of the success criteria are structured in a way that reads like an essay by someone who is trying to get a doctorate. 13:34:12 Philipp Instead of saying in plain language, "here is what this means." 13:34:40 Philipp What is missing for me is it feels like a lot of good theory but nothing practical. 13:35:10 Philipp We have good guidelines but they are really hard to understand 13:37:05 My comments are in the second bucket. 13:40:35 julierawe I recommend sorting our feedback into 3 buckets: (1) Need easier to understand descriptions such as changing "verbosity" to "too many words," (2) internationalization concerns, (3) unclear why the outcomes matters—doesn't seem important or relevant 13:41:24 Jan We could add other columns 13:41:41 Jan We could add a checkbox for "Language is hard to understand," etc 13:41:51 +1 to Jan's checkbox idea 13:45:15 ack kirkwood 13:47:24 Philipp asked why use 1 sentence instead of a paragraph 13:48:02 julierawe I think the AG chairs are concerned about overall length of the list of outcomes. 172 outcomes with just one-sentence descriptions is still really long to read through 13:48:13 Jan I think we need to raise these concerns 13:49:02 q+ 13:50:10 Philipp W3C is extremely exclusive in the way it tries to make things more inclusive 13:50:48 kirkwood The laws have been set much more around internationalization than around cognitive areas. 13:51:28 kirkwood It's about translation and interpretation and this funding comes from laws. There are resources there, so we should leverage as much as possible. 13:51:51 kirkwood This may be more effective than emphasizing cognitive disabilities 13:53:50 julierawe I recommend we provide specific feedback about some outcomes and see if AG chairs want more of this kind of feedback 13:54:24 Jan We could discuss the ChatGPT versions at our next meeting and see if AG is OK with that, if it's helpful to them 13:54:58 Jan Maybe we should take this section, get a concise explanation of our concerns, and ask the internationalization working group to provide feedback based on our feedback. 13:55:07 Jan We can leverage internationalization strategically. 13:55:36 Jan We'll do that next time. I want to make sure the spreadsheet is easy to use, to check a box, and we can spend time collectively on ones we find difficult to understand. 13:55:46 zakim, next item 13:55:46 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Jan 13:55:56 q? 13:56:02 ack julierawe 13:56:24 zakim, next item 13:56:26 agendum 4 -- Finalize the recruiting email text: https://docs.google.com/document/d/14urDbLrdkARcfQhDRUItUUYGm23bY5FAWnKx4xjpAM4/edit?usp=sharing -- taken up [from Jan] 14:02:14 Jan: I will send an email to everyone, asking them to please read through the recruiting document one last time so that we can vote on it being completed at our next meeting. 14:02:22 Thank you!!! 14:02:39 Thank you, Philipp! :-) 14:02:44 and apologies, I still need to get used to queue myself 14:02:46 in here 14:02:48 :D 14:03:12 Me too - I just start talking. :-) 14:03:20 alrighty 14:03:26 rrsagent, generate minutes 14:03:27 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-global-inclusion-minutes.html Jan 14:03:47 zakim, end meeting 14:03:47 As of this point the attendees have been Jan, present, julierawe 14:03:48 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 14:03:49 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-global-inclusion-minutes.html Zakim 14:03:55 I am happy to have been of service, Jan; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 14:03:56 Zakim has left #global-inclusion 14:04:16 rrsagent, bye 14:04:16 I see no action items