IRC log of coga on 2024-07-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:39:22 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #coga
13:39:26 [RRSAgent]: logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/07/22-coga-irc
13:39:26 [Zakim]: RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:39:27 [Zakim]: Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
13:42:17 [lisa]: agenda+ scribe
13:42:25 [lisa]: agenda+ updates and actions https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit#heading=h.ka7r1m4q5vkc
13:42:39 [lisa]: agenda+
13:43:02 [lisa]: agenda+ Holidays
13:43:13 [lisa]: agenda+ Csun
13:43:46 [lisa]: agenda+ https://w3c.github.io/ctaur/ september 30 review deadline.
13:44:02 [lisa]: agenda+ Tpac brake out https://www.w3.org/2024/09/TPAC/breakouts.html
13:44:46 [lisa]: agenda+ review supported dessions making . See https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g9N-_3l-d6t0ppZcIIZ98k00x7ZE7h3ayq0OCX9Ycu4/edit#heading=h.rhs6n8lpznbz
13:47:18 [lisa]: Agenda+ Is there an editors call this week?
13:53:32 [kirkwood]: kirkwood has joined #COGA
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14:52:58 [Lisa]: Lisa has joined #coga
14:53:17 [Lisa]: agenda?
14:53:28 [Lisa]: RRSAgent, publish minutes
14:53:29 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/22-coga-minutes.html Lisa
14:59:17 [kirkwood]: kirkwood has joined #COGA
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15:00:08 [tburtin]: present+
15:01:51 [JMcSorley]: JMcSorley has joined #coga
15:02:18 [Rain]: Rain has joined #coga
15:02:39 [Rain]: present+
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15:02:45 [julierawe]: present+
15:03:15 [Jennie_Delisi]: Jennie_Delisi has joined #COGA
15:03:26 [Jennie_Delisi]: present+
15:03:28 [Lisa]: zakim pick a scribe
15:03:37 [Lisa]: zakim, pick a scribe
15:03:37 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose tburtin
15:03:55 [Lisa]: zakim, pick a scribe
15:03:55 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose julierawe
15:04:08 [Lisa]: scribe: Julie
15:04:26 [Lisa]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Scribe_list
15:04:32 [Lisa]: next item
15:04:38 [Lisa]: close item 1
15:04:41 [Lisa]: next item
15:04:51 [Becca_Monteleone]: Becca_Monteleone has joined #coga
15:04:56 [Becca_Monteleone]: present+
15:05:29 [julierawe]: Rain Structure will meet this Thursday and go over recruiting protocol
15:05:51 [julierawe]: Rain I will have draft ready to share the day before the meeting
15:06:02 [julierawe]: Rain This is to get ready to start user study
15:06:15 [julierawe]: Rain I haven't heard from Roy about our requests for new version
15:06:34 [julierawe]: Rain My colleague is working on more idealized version, so those two prototypes are in development now
15:06:38 [Lisa]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Developer_resources#Resources_from_other_projects
15:06:52 [julierawe]: Lisa We have a wiki page on resources from other projects including Easy Reading project
15:07:06 [julierawe]: Lisa We had a nice handbook for involving peer researchers and focus groups
15:07:16 [julierawe]: Lisa This includes an example of a consent form
15:07:57 [julierawe]: Lisa Update on the issue papers—Becca is doing online safety and Julie is doing the two others
15:08:29 [julierawe]: Becca_Monteleone I just plugged in a google doc version and that's where I'm doing the edits. I put the link in the Action Items doc.
15:08:52 [julierawe]: Lisa We're doing something similar
15:10:03 [julierawe]: julierawe I will create google docs and edit them this week. I will also share with Becca the COGA style guide that includes details on how many words per sentence.
15:10:09 [Becca_Monteleone]: Rain - I also have experience with cognitively accessible consent/assent forms and navigating ethics around research, particularly with people with intellectual disabilities in an academic setting, if that's helpful!
15:13:52 [Rain]: +1 it surprised me as well
15:14:08 [Jennie_Delisi]: I have been adding the labels subgroup during the AG calls.
15:14:13 [julierawe]: julierawe For Clear Language, Julie will share Rain's card-sort activity. Implied Language will continue meeting during the Tuesday AG meetings.
15:14:19 [Jennie_Delisi]: Sorry - been attending the labels subgroup
15:14:28 [julierawe]: JMcSorley I did not know the sprints had started
15:14:37 [julierawe]: Rain I got lucky and realized they started early
15:14:57 [julierawe]: Lisa Julie, can you ask COGA if everyone was contacted by the subgroup they wanted to be in
15:15:00 [Rain]: q+
15:15:07 [Lisa]: ack next
15:15:18 [julierawe]: Rain I want to acknowledge there have been a couple of challenges for the COGA task force in terms of participating.
15:15:59 [julierawe]: Rain I'd also like to acknowledge they are trying to find a way to be more effective. Giving them feedback will be valuable but I want to recognize they are trying.
15:16:17 [Jennie_Delisi]: +1 to Rain's comment. Because they made the change, I have more opportunity to participate. But do support providing the feedback
15:16:19 [julierawe]: Lisa We need to catch these things when people are getting stuck
15:16:35 [julierawe]: JMcSorley I get a lot of emails from W3C so it could be an error on my side as well
15:16:39 [julierawe]: q+
15:17:26 [Lisa]: ack next
15:19:06 [tburtin]: q+
15:19:17 [Lisa]: ack next
15:19:26 [julierawe]: julierawe I think this is partly a failure on my part—I should have communicated more clearly
15:19:51 [julierawe]: tburtin I think they were also trying to respond to scheduling challenges and decided to use AG time
15:19:57 [Lisa]: next item
15:20:27 [julierawe]: julierawe I will reach out to AG to see if subgroup leaders can get a list of survey takers who expressed interest
15:20:48 [Jennie_Delisi]: September 2 is holiday in the US and Canada
15:20:54 [Lisa]: last week august and 1st week septber
15:21:10 [Rain]: +1
15:21:13 [julierawe]: +1
15:21:15 [Becca_Monteleone]: +1
15:21:16 [Jennie_Delisi]: +1
15:21:17 [tburtin]: +1
15:21:18 [JMcSorley]: +1
15:21:22 [kirkwood]: +1
15:21:29 [Lisa]: next item
15:21:40 [julierawe]: No COGA meetings that last week of August and 1st week of September
15:21:49 [julierawe]: Lisa CSUN is coming up in March
15:21:52 [Lisa]: https://w2.csun.edu/cod/conference/general-call-presentations
15:21:54 [julierawe]: q+
15:22:22 [julierawe]: Lisa The call for CSUN submissions is Sept 24. That might be another time for face-to-face meeting
15:22:32 [Lisa]: next item
15:22:39 [Lisa]: ack next
15:23:03 [Jennie_Delisi]: TPAC starts September 23
15:23:16 [Lisa]: https://www.w3.org/news-events/w3c-tpac/
15:23:36 [Lisa]: next item
15:24:06 [Lisa]: https://w3c.github.io/ctaur/
15:24:27 [julierawe]: Lisa There is a new editor's draft and they want to know by end of September if we have any outstanding issues.
15:24:47 [kirkwood]: +1 to a working or regular call
15:24:50 [julierawe]: Lisa They think they have resolved our concerns. Should we set up a meeting or read it over if we think there are issues?
15:25:18 [kirkwood]: +1
15:25:29 [julierawe]: Lisa We should do it altogether
15:25:31 [julierawe]: q+
15:25:36 [Lisa]: ack next
15:26:06 [julierawe]: Lisa David is the liaison, and Jennie, Lisa, and John K did a lot of work on it.
15:26:23 [julierawe]: Jennie_Delisi I think David is closest to the latest version of it.
15:26:36 [julierawe]: Lisa I think we should loop in David but also set up a working meeting.
15:26:44 [julierawe]: +1
15:26:47 [Lisa]: next item
15:27:28 [julierawe]: Lisa I sent an email about booking a room. I need to find out if we have quorum.
15:27:48 [julierawe]: Frankie and ??? are definitely going
15:28:04 [julierawe]: Lisa Frankie and Rain are going
15:28:17 [julierawe]: Lisa Maybe from Julie, John K, Len and Tiffany
15:28:30 [julierawe]: tburtin We are trying to get funding
15:29:36 [julierawe]: Lisa Quorum is meant to be 6 people. 5 is OK. In a pinch, 4 might be OK with 3 remote people.
15:29:45 [julierawe]: q+
15:30:03 [Lisa]: ack next
15:30:33 [julierawe]: Lisa I will ask John Rochford
15:30:45 [julierawe]: I should know in a week or so if I can attend
15:30:52 [julierawe]: Lisa For now we have not booked a space
15:31:10 [julierawe]: Lisa But that does not mean it's not worth going because we can still do breakout sessions and attend AG and APA meetings
15:31:25 [julierawe]: Lisa If two more people manage to get space, we can ask for a room
15:31:32 [tburtin]: How often does TPAC occur in the US?
15:31:37 [Lisa]: q?
15:31:41 [Lisa]: https://www.w3.org/2024/09/TPAC/breakouts.html
15:31:47 [julierawe]: Lisa I don't feel comfortable at this point booking a space and then other groups can't get that space
15:32:04 [tburtin]: q+
15:32:56 [Lisa]: ack next
15:33:08 [julierawe]: tburtin How often does TPAC come to the US?
15:33:17 [julierawe]: Lisa I think it's every other year
15:33:31 [julierawe]: Lisa But it might be every 3rd year
15:33:56 [julierawe]: Lisa Rain, you wanted to do a breakout on the new structure for Making Content Usable
15:34:20 [julierawe]: Rain Yes, we'll have some results from the qualitative testing and an opportunity to connect directly with the folks at W3C who control the formatting
15:34:48 [julierawe]: Rain We'll be able to figure out what's possible as far as W3C style guide goes and how to address results from the testing
15:36:02 [julierawe]: Lisa We're thinking about 4 breakouts: structure proposal, safety proposal and algorithms, supported decision-making, and triggers.
15:36:37 [julierawe]: Lisa Deadline is Sept 15
15:37:06 [julierawe]: Lisa Does anyone want to co-lead with me?
15:37:26 [julierawe]: kirkwood Yes, supported decision-making
15:37:36 [julierawe]: Lisa Great, let's try to get that paper ready in time
15:38:13 [julierawe]: Lisa We'll have a presence at TPAC, we'll have breakout sessions, we might meet but it's a bit of a long shot
15:38:26 [Lisa]: next item
15:38:42 [Lisa]: agenda?
15:39:00 [Lisa]: review supported dessions making . See https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g9N-_3l-d6t0ppZcIIZ98k00x7ZE7h3ayq0OCX9Ycu4/edit#heading=h.rhs6n8lpznbz [from lisa]
15:40:15 [Lisa]: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g9N-_3l-d6t0ppZcIIZ98k00x7ZE7h3ayq0OCX9Ycu4/edit#heading=h.gvof99kcf7wa
15:42:43 [julierawe]: Lisa Frankie and I will try to answer the questions this week
15:42:57 [julierawe]: Lisa Normally we put in editor's draft when they're a bit more mature.
15:42:58 [Jennie_Delisi]: q+
15:43:18 [julierawe]: Lisa We could give people a week or two for people to weigh in before we put in editor's draft. What do people think?
15:43:20 [Lisa]: ack next
15:43:51 [julierawe]: Jennie_Delisi This morning I put into the list that the state of Minnesota is putting together a task force and they specifically mention guardianships and conservatorships
15:44:02 [julierawe]: Jennie_Delisi This means in the future there will be groups to share this information with
15:44:16 [julierawe]: Lisa This means getting the editors draft soon is all the more urgent
15:44:23 [julierawe]: Lisa Let's not wait a year to share with them
15:44:33 [julierawe]: Jennie_Delisi Their first meeting is in a year
15:44:47 [julierawe]: kirkwood I do think the supported decision making needs a little more work
15:44:59 [julierawe]: Lisa Can we get it ready in 2 weeks?
15:45:11 [julierawe]: kirkwood I will set aside time to work with Jennie and others
15:45:17 [julierawe]: Lisa I will set up a working call
15:45:27 [Jennie_Delisi]: Apologies - I cannot add any meetings in the next 2 weeks
15:45:34 [julierawe]: kirkwood We're not really describing the principles of cognitive support
15:47:09 [julierawe]: kirkwood It needs to move further and also have Jennie review
15:47:18 [julierawe]: Jennie_Delisi It would be easier to do asynchronous review
15:47:57 [julierawe]: Jennie_Delisi If there's something you're hoping I look at in a couple days, just shoot me an email
15:48:09 [Lisa]: agenda+ https://github.com/w3c/coga/issues/325
15:48:11 [julierawe]: Jennie_Delisi I do not see tagged comments during the work day
15:48:14 [Lisa]: next item
15:48:23 [Lisa]: close item 8
15:51:25 [julierawe]: The Abstract explains that:
15:51:25 [julierawe]: "This document is for people who make web content (web pages) and web applications. It gives advice on how to make content usable . . . "
15:51:25 [julierawe]: but does not explain and rarely even mentions the role of user agents (browsers + assistive technology). If it is expected that authors (designers and developers of content and application) best meet all these "8 User Story objectives" and all the "8 Design Objectives" without relying on browser extenions or ATs (user agents), then that needs to be
15:51:25 [julierawe]: made explicit.
15:51:27 [julierawe]: If however, and this is recommended, some spectrum or trade-off beetween authors and user agents (UA) is a good, better, or best approach in meeting (or partially meeting) the specific objective, then that needs to be made explicit. I would recommend leaning towards the latter and being explicit when trying to meet the specific objective and
15:51:27 [julierawe]: include considerations for the UA to be included. Perhaps it will be determined that authors have more responsibility of certains types of content and applications and UA's have more responsibilities on other types of content and applications. Examples would be helpful.
15:51:27 [julierawe]: I need to understand the language used, including vocabulary, syntax, tense, and other aspects of language.
15:51:28 [julierawe]: For example, the author would be responsibe for determing the initial choices of terms and levels of vocabulalry, but the UA would provide the hooks and mechanism to get to definitions or to adaptations of the terms (whole chucks of content) and alternative levels of the vocabulary (or whole chucks of content). Such as a simplified version of
15:51:28 [julierawe]: "Terms and conditions" aternative vs the legally binding versions of "terms and conditions".
15:52:58 [julierawe]: JMcSorley I think he is expecting that assistive technologies are going to be as robust as some of the screenreader technology is for blind users
15:53:00 [julierawe]: q+
15:53:05 [Lisa]: ack next
15:53:44 [julierawe]: julierawe Is browser support as robust in languages other than English?
15:53:59 [julierawe]: Lisa I think we need to discuss language support as well as AT
15:54:06 [julierawe]: Lisa For now the responsibility is on the author
15:54:27 [julierawe]: Lisa This person is thinking you can automatic simplified text, but as far as I'm away, the AI isn't there
15:54:45 [julierawe]: Lisa The assistive technology I was using was sometimes adding the wrong pictures
15:55:08 [julierawe]: Lisa With cognitive disabilities in particular, when AI is wrong, it's much worse when the information is wrong
15:55:55 [julierawe]: Lisa When is it good enough? Should we be trying to say if these assistive technologies get good enough, do you have to rely on which assistive technologies you're working on?
15:55:57 [Lisa]: q?
15:55:59 [julierawe]: q+
15:56:00 [kirkwood]: q+
15:56:06 [Lisa]: ack next
15:56:39 [julierawe]: Rain I'm extremely hesitant to suggest anything that uses AI as a proposed answer
15:56:50 [julierawe]: Rain It's still far too early to solve some of the challenges that we're facing
15:57:04 [Becca_Monteleone]: +1 re: hesitancy with AI, particularly for simplification tasks.
15:57:11 [julierawe]: Rain The AI itself, how do we know what it's been trained on? Does what it's been trained on meet the needs of the individual?
15:57:38 [Lisa]: +1
15:58:06 [kirkwood]: think some of concern is valid. one of the aI as potential (reviewed) ai. author approved. ai. ai warnings are important. surfacing where it is being used.
15:58:10 [JMcSorley]: +1
15:58:13 [Lisa]: q+
15:58:19 [julierawe]: Rain it can be leveraged with caution, it can be used in addition to what we've put in place
15:58:30 [Lisa]: Q+ to say it can be a tool for the author
15:58:53 [julierawe]: Rain When we think of AI in this context, there are newer studies that did some testing of some human-generated plain language vs AI-generated plain language
15:59:24 [JMcSorley]: q+
15:59:26 [kirkwood]: most important thing is for reader to know WHEN it is used. and creating the structure to properly surface it.
15:59:33 [julierawe]: Rain For text participants with cognitive disabilities, the human-generated plain language was easier to understand. But the original language was more understandabe than the AI-generated plain language
16:00:14 [julierawe]: kirkwood Agree with Rain. One thing we can and should do is surface when it is used at all times. Having the proper language of how it's being used so the user can know AI is involved
16:00:15 [Rain]: q+ to add a thought on what that language should be
16:00:29 [julierawe]: I have to leave for 12pm meeting, thanks everyone
16:00:35 [Lisa]: thanks julie
16:02:15 [kirkwood]: is it “author reviewed” ai or not. to surface to be able to make their decision
16:02:33 [JMcSorley]: Lisa: (1). AI could be a great tool for the author, but the author would need to review it to make sure that it works properly - kind of like using automatic captions and then editing them. (2). If people want to use automatically generated summaries, they need to notify people that it's been automatically generated because the summaries will only
16:02:33 [JMcSorley]: work if tested.
16:02:50 [Lisa]: ack next
16:02:53 [kirkwood]: +1 to paragraph
16:03:14 [kirkwood]: think Phil comment is valid, too
16:04:07 [kirkwood]: “human-reviewed ai”
16:04:32 [kirkwood]: +1 to issue paper
16:04:36 [Rain]: ack Rain
16:04:36 [Zakim]: Rain, you wanted to add a thought on what that language should be
16:04:41 [Lisa]: RRSAgent, publish minutes
16:04:42 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/22-coga-minutes.html Lisa
16:09:41 [kirkwood]: present_
16:09:48 [kirkwood]: present+
16:49:09 [kirkwood]: kirkwood has joined #COGA
18:53:21 [kirkwood]: kirkwood has joined #COGA
19:02:42 [kirkwood]: kirkwood has joined #COGA