IRC log of apa on 2024-07-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:18:17 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #apa
12:18:22 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/07/17-apa-irc
12:18:22 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:18:23 [Zakim]
please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), janina
12:18:32 [janina]
Meeting: APA Weekly Teleconference
12:18:53 [janina]
Date: 17 Jul 2024
12:18:58 [janina]
Chair: Janina
12:19:03 [janina]
agenda+ Agenda Review & Announcements
12:19:03 [janina]
agenda+ TPAC 2024 Planning
12:19:03 [janina]
agenda+ Interim update on WCAG2ICT reivew
12:19:03 [janina]
agenda+ EPUB Fixed Layout
12:19:03 [janina]
agenda+ Task Force & Deliverables Updates
12:19:05 [janina]
agenda+ [New Charters Review](https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Horizontal+review+requested%22)
12:19:08 [janina]
agenda+ [HR A11y Review Comment Tracker](https://w3c.github.io/horizontal-issue-tracker/?repo=w3c/a11y-review)
12:19:11 [janina]
agenda+ [Explicit Review Requests](https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues)
12:19:14 [janina]
agenda+ [New on TR](http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html)
12:19:16 [janina]
agenda+ [CSS Update (Paul)](https://github.com/w3c/css-a11y/issues)
12:19:19 [janina]
agenda+ Actions check-in
12:19:21 [janina]
agenda+ Other business
12:19:24 [janina]
agenda+ Be done
12:19:30 [janina]
zakim, clear agenda
12:19:30 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
12:20:45 [janina]
agenda+ Agenda Review & Announcements
12:20:45 [janina]
agenda+ TPAC 2024 Planning
12:20:45 [janina]
agenda+ Task Force & Deliverables Updates
12:20:45 [janina]
agenda+ New Charters Review <https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Horizontal+review+requested%22>
12:20:48 [janina]
agenda+ HR A11y Review Comment Tracker <https://w3c.github.io/horizontal-issue-tracker/?repo=w3c/a11y-review>
12:20:51 [janina]
agenda+ Explicit Review Requests <https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues>
12:20:53 [janina]
agenda+ new on TR <http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html>
12:20:56 [janina]
agenda+ CSS Update (Paul) <https://github.com/w3c/css-a11y/issues>
12:20:58 [janina]
agenda+ Actions Checkin (Specs) <https://github.com/issues/assigned>
12:21:01 [janina]
agenda+ Other Business
12:21:03 [janina]
agenda+ be done
12:34:10 [janina]
agenda?
13:07:54 [kirkwood]
kirkwood has joined #APA
13:28:17 [roy__]
roy__ has joined #apa
13:53:08 [janina]
regrets: Jennifer Strickland, Alisa_Smith
13:55:13 [janina]
present+
13:55:17 [janina]
agenda?
13:59:57 [gautierchomel]
gautierchomel has joined #apa
14:00:10 [janina]
zakim, clear agenda
14:00:10 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
14:00:14 [janina]
agenda+ Agenda Review & Announcements
14:00:14 [janina]
agenda+ TPAC 2024 Planning
14:00:14 [janina]
agenda+ Interim update on WCAG2ICT reivew
14:00:14 [janina]
agenda+ EPUB Fixed Layout
14:00:14 [janina]
agenda+ Task Force &&Deliverables Updates
14:00:17 [janina]
agenda+ [New Charters Review](https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Horizontal+review+requested%22)
14:00:20 [janina]
agenda+ [HR A11y Review Comment Tracker](https://w3c.github.io/horizontal-issue-tracker/?repo=w3c/a11y-review)
14:00:23 [janina]
agenda+ [Explicit Review Requests](https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues)
14:00:25 [janina]
agenda+ [New on TR](http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html)
14:00:28 [janina]
agenda+ [CSS Update (Paul)](https://github.com/w3c/css-a11y/issues)
14:00:30 [janina]
agenda+ Actions check-in
14:00:33 [janina]
agenda+ Other business
14:00:35 [janina]
agenda+ Be done
14:02:06 [roy__]
agenda?
14:02:19 [Gottfried]
Gottfried has joined #apa
14:02:42 [janina]
zakim, drop item 6, 7, 8, 9
14:02:42 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'drop item 6, 7, 8, 9', janina
14:02:55 [janina]
zakim, drop item 6,7,8,9
14:02:55 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'drop item 6,7,8,9', janina
14:03:25 [janina]
zakim, drop item 6 7 8 9
14:03:25 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'drop item 6 7 8 9', janina
14:03:34 [roy__]
zakim, drop item 6
14:03:34 [Zakim]
agendum 6, [New Charters Review](https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Horizontal+review+requested%22), dropped
14:03:34 [janina]
zakim, drop item 6
14:03:36 [Zakim]
agendum 6, [New Charters Review](https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Horizontal+review+requested%22), dropped
14:03:41 [janina]
zakim, drop item 7
14:03:43 [Zakim]
agendum 7, [HR A11y Review Comment Tracker](https://w3c.github.io/horizontal-issue-tracker/?repo=w3c/a11y-review), dropped
14:03:46 [janina]
zakim, drop item 8
14:03:46 [Zakim]
agendum 8, [Explicit Review Requests](https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues), dropped
14:03:51 [janina]
zakim, drop item 9
14:03:51 [Zakim]
agendum 9, [New on TR](http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html), dropped
14:04:13 [roy__]
agenda?
14:04:27 [Gottfried]
present+
14:05:07 [Gottfried]
scribe: Gottfried
14:05:13 [Roy]
present+
14:05:16 [gautierchomel]
present+
14:05:43 [Gottfried]
zakim, open item 1
14:05:43 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Announcements -- taken up [from janina]
14:06:35 [NehaJ]
NehaJ has joined #apa
14:06:55 [NehaJ]
present+
14:09:26 [Gottfried]
discussion on joining the #apa channel on https://webirc.w3.org/#/connect
14:09:52 [Gottfried2]
Gottfried2 has joined #apa
14:10:00 [Angela]
Angela has joined #apa
14:10:20 [PaulG]
PaulG has joined #apa
14:10:28 [PaulG]
present+
14:11:27 [Gottfried]
Round of introduction
14:11:34 [Gottfried]
s/introduction/introductions
14:12:44 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
14:12:44 [Zakim]
Present: janina, Gottfried, Roy, gautierchomel, NehaJ, PaulG
14:12:46 [Zakim]
On IRC I see PaulG, Angela, Gottfried2, NehaJ, Gottfried, gautierchomel, Roy, kirkwood, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, bkardell_, gb, jcraig, Rachael, slightlyoff, cwilso, tink,
14:12:46 [Zakim]
... agendabot, ada
14:16:57 [Gottfried]
Angela: Background in education and accessibility. Transitioned from education to siteimprove. Joined EA wg in Dec, but now discontinued. Disability advocate. Also on LinkedIn.
14:17:22 [Gottfried]
... Living accessibility every day.
14:17:44 [janina]
present+
14:17:49 [Angela]
present+
14:18:01 [Roy]
RRSAgent, make minutes
14:18:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/17-apa-minutes.html Roy
14:18:11 [Gottfried]
https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-angela-young/
14:18:50 [Gottfried]
zakim, next item
14:18:50 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- TPAC 2024 Planning -- taken up [from janina]
14:19:26 [Gottfried]
janina: A lot of meetings are scheduled - more to come.
14:19:27 [Gottfried]
https://www.w3.org/news-events/w3c-tpac/
14:19:42 [Gottfried]
... Request this week: Propose breakouts
14:20:04 [Gottfried]
... If you propose a break-out, please copy me and Matthew
14:20:31 [Gottfried]
zakim, next item
14:20:31 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Interim update on WCAG2ICT reivew -- taken up [from janina]
14:21:17 [Gottfried]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wcag2ict/
14:21:20 [NehaJ]
NehaJ has joined #apa
14:21:38 [NehaJ]
present+
14:21:53 [Roy]
https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues/88
14:22:21 [Roy]
https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict-22/
14:22:22 [Gottfried]
Note: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wcag2ict/ is the old one. The new one is at https://w3c.github.io/wcag2ict/
14:23:47 [Gottfried]
NehaJ: My team is reviewing this currently.
14:23:52 [Gottfried]
janina: And Dr. Keith, and Matthew.
14:24:52 [Gottfried]
This document originally was created on the request of the US Access Board, and also by the European Commission.
14:25:26 [Gottfried]
... Group working on it has almost finished. Now requesting review.
14:26:36 [Gottfried]
Gottfried: Important piece for the next version of EN 301 549 v4.1.1. Please add me to the reviewing group.
14:26:48 [Gottfried]
NehaJ: I will add you to the Google doc.
14:27:12 [Gottfried]
zakim, next item
14:27:12 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- EPUB Fixed Layout -- taken up [from janina]
14:28:10 [Gottfried]
janina: Note track document - no formal review process
14:28:28 [Gottfried]
https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-fxl-a11y/
14:28:36 [Gottfried]
janina: Concerns about accessibility
14:29:28 [Gottfried]
janina: A fixed layout EPUB doc will not achieve the level of accessibility as in a regular EPUB doc.
14:29:39 [gautierchomel]
q+
14:30:17 [Gottfried]
janina: Calling it "accessibility" (title) is not useful.
14:30:52 [janina]
q?
14:30:53 [Gottfried]
janina: APA can create a draft comment expressing these concerns.
14:31:12 [janina]
q+
14:31:22 [janina]
ack g
14:31:25 [janina]
ack j
14:31:55 [Gottfried]
gautierchomel: I participated in the writing of this document.
14:32:21 [Angela]
Angela has joined #apa
14:32:41 [Gottfried]
gautierchomel: First XML, then HTML, then HTML5. Publishing industry now part of W3C.
14:32:55 [Gottfried]
... EPUB3 is the gold standard for accessible ebooks.
14:33:18 [janina]
q?
14:33:24 [Gottfried]
... There is a need in the publishing industry for fixed layout.
14:34:14 [Gottfried]
... Print equivalents, academic contexts
14:35:07 [Gottfried]
... Need for more resilient version of fixed layout.
14:35:17 [Gottfried]
... Problem: You cannot reflow text.
14:35:44 [Gottfried]
... Like in PDF.
14:36:49 [Dr_Keith]
Dr_Keith has joined #apa
14:37:21 [Gottfried]
Two perspectives: (1) Screenreader receives reflowable content. (2) Changes on visual layout possible??
14:37:50 [Gottfried]
... Screenreader users were not missing anything.
14:38:07 [PaulG]
q+
14:38:11 [janina]
q?
14:38:24 [janina]
ack p
14:38:25 [Gottfried]
... Better semantics than PDF. Same issues with visual layout as PDF.
14:38:58 [Gottfried]
PaulG: PDF allows for programmatic reading order. But this document does not address author-controlled reading order.
14:39:31 [janina]
q?
14:39:42 [Gottfried]
... Not convinced that this is better than PDF. PDF would handle reading order.
14:40:04 [Gottfried]
... PDFs have a feature "touchup reading order".
14:40:24 [Gottfried]
gautierchomel: Reading order is included in this document.
14:40:49 [Gottfried]
https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-fxl-a11y/#reading-order
14:41:30 [Dr_Keith]
present+
14:42:14 [Gottfried]
PaulG: I don't see a recommendation about author-controlled reading order here.
14:42:46 [Gottfried]
... How does this doc recommend what to do about reading order. I cannot find this here. Only problems are stated.
14:43:26 [Gottfried]
gautierchomel: There is no "programmatic reading order" in EPUB.
14:44:08 [Gottfried]
PaulG: If fixed layout breaks the default order of elements in how they are presented visually, there should be a way to define the reading order.
14:44:19 [Gottfried]
janina: The question is what does this doc achieve.
14:44:37 [Gottfried]
PaulG: No recommendation on what to do in these problematic cases.
14:45:18 [Gottfried]
... We should have the technology of programmatic reading order. What does EPUB bring onto the table here?
14:46:05 [Gottfried]
gautierchomel: EPUB 3.3 has this.
14:47:00 [Gottfried]
s/EPUB 3.3 has this/Not a problem in EPUB since it is HTML5.
14:47:28 [Gottfried]
janina: There is no guidance as to how to achieve accessibility how we expect it.
14:47:36 [Gottfried]
... Change title to "Accessibility challenges"?
14:48:07 [Gottfried]
... Or create a spec with normative requirements.
14:48:44 [Gottfried]
... Since it is a note, there are no recommendations, only issues. It is an exploratory document. But call it different.
14:49:19 [gautierchomel]
q+
14:49:26 [Gottfried]
... There is a way to have fixed layout and have reflow - but different topic.
14:49:26 [janina]
q?
14:50:24 [Gottfried]
PaulG: If EPUB 3.3 has a technical solution of defining a reading order, this doc needs to hint at this solution.
14:50:43 [gautierchomel]
there an attached techniques document: https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/fxl-a11y-tech/
14:50:45 [NehaJ]
NehaJ has joined #apa
14:51:27 [Gottfried]
PaulG: Doc is readable, but not necessarily helping to make docs more accessible.
14:51:52 [Gottfried]
... The techniques document has useful content here.
14:52:07 [Gottfried]
zakim, next item
14:52:07 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Gottfried
14:52:13 [Gottfried]
q?
14:52:46 [Gottfried]
janina: We need to discuss this further in APA.
14:53:14 [Gottfried]
q- gautierchomel
14:53:20 [Gottfried]
zakim, next item
14:53:20 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- Task Force &&Deliverables Updates -- taken up [from janina]
14:53:28 [Gottfried]
zakim, close this item
14:53:28 [Zakim]
agendum 5 closed
14:53:29 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:53:29 [Zakim]
10. [CSS Update (Paul)](https://github.com/w3c/css-a11y/issues) [from janina]
14:53:32 [PaulG]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/6517
14:53:33 [Gottfried]
zakim, open next item
14:53:33 [Zakim]
agendum 10 -- [CSS Update (Paul)](https://github.com/w3c/css-a11y/issues) -- taken up [from janina]
14:54:05 [Gottfried]
PaulG: CSS Media Queries Level 5. Win for user preferences.
14:54:56 [Gottfried]
zakim, next item
14:54:56 [Zakim]
agendum 11 -- Actions check-in -- taken up [from janina]
14:55:02 [Gottfried]
zakim, close this item
14:55:02 [Zakim]
agendum 11 closed
14:55:03 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:55:03 [Zakim]
12. Other business [from janina]
14:55:05 [Gottfried]
zakim, next item
14:55:06 [Zakim]
agendum 12 -- Other business -- taken up [from janina]
14:55:15 [Gottfried]
janina: Meeting adjourned
14:55:39 [Gottfried]
zakim, bye
14:55:39 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been janina, Gottfried, Roy, gautierchomel, NehaJ, PaulG, Angela, Dr_Keith
14:55:39 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #apa
14:55:44 [NehaJ]
NehaJ has left #apa
14:55:53 [Roy]
RRSAgent, make minutes
14:55:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/17-apa-minutes.html Roy
15:14:27 [kirkwood]
kirkwood has joined #APA
15:59:38 [wendyreid]
wendyreid has joined #apa
16:21:06 [kirkwood]
kirkwood has joined #APA
17:05:02 [kirkwood]
kirkwood has joined #APA
17:49:00 [kirkwood]
kirkwood has joined #APA
19:12:46 [janina]
rrsagent, bye
19:12:46 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items