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13:55:13 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/07/12-rdf-star-irc
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13:55:22 <TallTed> meeting: RDF-star Semantics TF
13:55:24 <TallTed> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6d0cd306-0be8-4267-865a-6272cc8d9da4/20240712T100000/
13:55:25 <agendabot> TallTed, sorry, could not get https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6d0cd306-0be8-4267-865a-6272cc8d9da4/20240712T100000/ (code 429).
13:55:26 <TallTed> present+
13:55:28 <TallTed> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:55:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/12-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
13:55:32 <TallTed> rrsagent, make logs public
13:56:04 <TallTed> agenda+ finalise the discussion on transparent vs opaque
13:56:06 <TallTed> agenda+ going back to use case: is there any use case that needs opacity?
13:57:10 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/07/18-rdf-star-minutes.html
13:57:12 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/07/11-rdf-star-minutes.html
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13:59:32 <TallTed> present+ AndyS, tl, pfps
14:00:02 <tl> test''' line2
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14:01:30 <TallTed> s/test''' line2//
14:01:53 <niklasl> present+
14:02:06 <TallTed> present+ gkellogg, pchampin
14:02:21 <TallTed> present+ enrico
14:02:24 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft miinutes
14:02:24 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft miinutes', TallTed.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
14:02:29 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:02:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/12-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
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14:02:46 <enrico> present+
14:04:14 <TallTed> i/next meeting:/scribe: ?scribe?
14:04:14 <TallTed> i/next meeting:/chair: ?chair?
14:04:26 <gkellogg> present+
14:04:45 <TallTed> Zakim, who's here?
14:04:45 <Zakim> Present: TallTed, AndyS, tl, pfps, niklasl, gkellogg, pchampin, enrico
14:04:47 <Zakim> On IRC I see enrico, gkellogg, niklasl, pfps, tl, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, TallTed, driib5, gb, ktk, csarven, rhiaro, Tpt, agendabot, pchampin, gtw
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14:05:11 <TallTed> present+ doerthe
14:05:20 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:05:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/12-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:05:31 <TallTed> present+ Souri
14:06:23 <tl> present+
14:06:28 <TallTed> s/?chair?/enrico/
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14:06:35 <Souri> present+
14:06:47 <AndyS> present+
14:08:18 <pchampin> present+
14:09:57 <TallTed> agenda?
14:10:50 <enrico> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-ucr/wiki/Summary
14:12:12 <AndyS> pfps: Uses cases - opacity needed only for the delta use case
14:12:20 <enrico> pfps: the only use case requiring opacity is the commit-delta
14:12:59 <AndyS> ... but that also needs blank node identity (exactly the same bnode, i.e. same system implementation object)
14:13:11 <niklasl> I agree with that assessment.
14:13:55 <TallTed> s/?scribe?/AndyS
14:15:07 <enrico> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-and-LPGs
14:16:21 <AndyS> q+
14:16:41 <enrico> ack AndyS
14:17:19 <niklasl> q+
14:17:53 <enrico> ack nikasl
14:18:04 <enrico> ack niklasl
14:18:50 <pfps> What I proposed was a fundamentally different way to change RDF graphs, instead of adding a new kind of node to handle embedded triples it adds an optional triple to the existing nodes.
14:20:38 <pchampin> just to be sure: we are talking about this proposal, right? https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2024Jul/0035.html
14:20:54 <niklasl> Yes.
14:21:12 <TallTed> i|https://github.com/w3c/rdf-ucr/wiki/Summary|topic: going back to use case: is there any use case that needs opacity?
14:21:15 <pfps> In some strong sense, this is a "cleaner" way of handling standard RDF reificiation.  Think of pulling the three reification triples into one node, with a subject, predicate, and object plus an IRI or blank node.  You should be able to see the correspondence between this and the reification node for standard RDF reification plus the values for rdf:subject, rdf:predicate, and rdf:object.
14:21:28 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:21:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/12-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:22:39 <AndyS> q?
14:23:03 <enrico> q+
14:23:04 <pfps> If you are thinking in RDF/XML terms, instead of using the rdf:ID as a new node and three triples just create one of these new kinds of nodes with rdf:ID and the three values.
14:24:03 <AndyS> you can use the id without the three values
14:24:11 <AndyS> ack enrico
14:24:18 <niklasl> q+
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14:24:39 <Souri> present+
14:24:40 <tl> q+
14:24:49 <pchampin> q+ to ask enrico to develop what people would have to ignore in triple terms?
14:25:02 <pfps> Things aren't quite this simple, as you probably need to be able have multiple triples on one node to allow for the id to be used multiple times.   With standard reification (and rdf:ID) you just get a standard RDF reification potentially with multiple subjects, predicates, or objects, but with a unitary solution you have to allow something different.
14:25:19 <AndyS> q?
14:25:38 <AndyS> ack niklasl
14:27:14 <AndyS> ack tl
14:27:57 <TallTed> ":a :b :c"^^rdf:triple_term
14:28:19 <niklasl> q+
14:29:14 <niklasl> rdf:reifies would be special just like rdf:type, no more no less
14:30:08 <doerthe> I also don't get why we need a syntactic restriction
14:30:13 <niklasl> The same rationale as for not allowing literals as subjects.
14:30:33 <doerthe> isSourceOf
14:31:05 <doerthe> but what do we win?
14:31:07 <niklasl> "Niklas" :isNameOf <niklas> .
14:34:22 <enrico>  ack pchampin
14:34:22 <Zakim> pchampin, you wanted to ask enrico to develop what people would have to ignore in triple terms?
14:36:54 <pchampin> what about "foo"^^ex:superman vs. "foo"^^ex:clark ??
14:37:53 <niklasl> By that logic, shouldn't literals in RDF always be sugar for `[ rdf:realValue BOXED-RAW-LITERAL ]` ?
14:39:40 <pchampin> 12: it is even, it is not prime, it is postive
14:40:03 <niklasl> 12 rdf:type xsd:integer .
14:40:17 <tl> s/postive/positive
14:41:32 <tl> q+
14:41:40 <gkellogg> ack niklasl
14:41:44 <enrico> ack niklasl
14:43:05 <pchampin> you broke the entire universe only for people who chose to believe you :)
14:43:42 <doerthe> I still don't see the problem what is the exact poblem. What could I do?
14:44:47 <enrico> ack tl
14:45:03 <enrico> q+
14:45:06 <doerthe> I would be happier with that
14:46:26 <niklasl> I would not. That's for the generalized syntax.
14:47:02 <tl> @niklas i'm not too religious about the generalized question
14:47:18 <pchampin> q+ to emphasize, W3C hat on, that we need to find a solution with which everyone can live with, not something that satisfies entirely everyone
14:48:37 <niklasl> I have no *objection* to discourage use of triple terms for other things than rdf:reifies. To try to shift angle, I *could* see that as an entailment from Peter's proposal. I just don't see how that would be simpler.
14:48:52 <tl> q+
14:49:00 <enrico> ack enrico
14:49:07 <Souri> Could someone say, in gist, what is: {restrictions for well-formed} MINUS { triple-term in object position only and only when rdf:reifies is the predicate }?
14:49:19 <niklasl> I'm surprised that we've arrived at the simpler baseline and then we're not happy still.
14:50:29 <AndyS> +1 to pchampin/W3C-hat-on
14:51:09 <enrico> q+
14:51:20 <enrico> ack pchampin
14:51:20 <Zakim> pchampin, you wanted to emphasize, W3C hat on, that we need to find a solution with which everyone can live with, not something that satisfies entirely everyone
14:51:31 <Souri> q+
14:52:06 <pfps> +1 to pchampin - these are good reasons to be leery of the triple-in-node change
14:52:40 <enrico> ack tl
14:52:48 <enrico> ack enrico
14:54:44 <pchampin> q+
14:55:02 <pchampin> q-
14:55:04 <pchampin> ok :)
14:56:27 <enrico> ack Souri
14:56:48 <niklasl> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-%22minimal-baseline%22#abstract-syntax-of-well-formed-rdf
14:56:49 <AndyS> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-%22minimal-baseline%22
14:57:38 <AndyS> q+
14:57:53 <niklasl> Well, :r rdf:reifies <<(:r :r :r )>>.is "OK" (albeit.. well...)
14:58:50 <enrico> But, Niklas, this can happen also for lists...
14:58:51 <AndyS> yes- :r is a name for an object and it's not nested/containment which would be problematic.
14:58:51 <niklasl> "OK" like `:r rdf:type 12 .`
14:59:11 <niklasl> Yes, it's too loose...
14:59:16 <enrico> data structures should be "well founded" (aka finite and non circular)
14:59:58 <pchampin> do "normal users" read N-Triples ? :->
15:00:12 <niklasl> :anything rdf:reifies <<( :anything :anything :anything )>>. *shrug*
15:00:44 <enrico> ack andys
15:00:47 <niklasl> pchampin Do normal users intersect with AWK users? Then yes. ;)
15:00:48 <tl> q+
15:01:05 <doerthe> (I will be away for a moment)
15:03:07 <niklasl> q+
15:03:27 <enrico> ack tl
15:03:34 <enrico> ack nikasl
15:03:42 <enrico> ack niklasl
15:04:01 <gkellogg> q+
15:04:10 <AndyS> Jena has several output forms for specific formatting and appearance of Turtle. It only needs one reader though.
15:05:26 <doerthe> (back)
15:05:37 <doerthe> what does blank node as type mean?
15:06:44 <enrico> ack gkellogg
15:07:43 <pchampin> "reifies" is the product of consensus: nobody loves it, but everybody (I think) said they could live with it :)
15:09:10 <niklasl> doerthe <x> a [ rdfs:label "Heffalump" ]  .
15:11:50 <niklasl> Library data, alas, is full of [ rdf:value "X123" ; a [ rdfs:label "X-System-DatabaseID" ] ].
15:11:52 <AndyS> q+ to ask about subproperties
15:12:16 <pchampin> q+
15:12:28 <enrico> ack andys
15:12:28 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about subproperties
15:12:32 <niklasl> pchampin, not exactly as horrible, but on a slipperly slope towards those, yes
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15:12:52 <niklasl> q+
15:12:53 <Souri> present+
15:13:34 <enrico> ack pchampin
15:15:24 <enrico> ack niklasl
15:15:42 <AndyS> I can accept the minimal baseline and feel that we have gone as far as we can by discussion only. We need text (and proposed diffs to text) + start the companion note.
15:15:54 <enrico> +1 AndyS
15:17:24 <tl> I would certainly +1 the functionality of the minimal baseline as sufficient. as I tried to explain I think it could be streamlined even more. I am worried that IMO it still doesn't define properly what "reifies" actually means (or maybe I don't get it but then I'd like an explanation
15:17:27 <Souri> (before my computer died I was trying to write this) I am hoping for a simple/restricted N-Triple syntax that allows=> :r1 | :s :p : o . =(which maps to)=> :r1 rdf:reifies <<( :s :p :o )>> .
15:18:19 <doerthe> @niklasl can you post a link to the mail you want us to re-read? Then I answer to that directly (I am lost in our e-mail discussions :D )
15:18:45 <pchampin> Souri: what about using a "simplified Turtle" instead (e.g. without "," or ";"), rather than making N-Triples more "magic"?
15:19:10 <tl> q+
15:19:23 <niklasl> doerthe it's https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2024Jul/0038.html
15:19:30 <doerthe> thank you :)
15:20:12 <niklasl> I agree on that concern.
15:20:18 <enrico> ack tl
15:21:14 <Souri> Pierre-Antoine, let me think a bit about such a "simplified Turtle" idea.
15:22:10 <niklasl> doerthe here is a related example of the "power of OWL" https://gist.github.com/niklasl/cf8871f82564749153d929f747228ef3 (for self-validating "Truth" reifiers...)
15:23:16 <niklasl> q+
15:24:50 <tl> q+ to quickly ask for comment on "unasserted assertions" (as we're approaching the end)
15:25:09 <Souri> Standalone occurrence in Turtle may work (I think Andy mentioned this one of his earlier emails), if it supports: :r1 | :s :p : o . (or, at least << :r1 | :s :p : o >> .)
15:25:20 <doerthe> thinking about syntactic restrictions, we can still do (<<:s :p :o>>) :isSubjectListOf (<<:s :p :o>>). (only playing around thinking about what can and cannot be done), but not <<:s :p :o>> a rdfs:Resource.
15:27:17 <tl> @dörthe :isSubjectListOf - what vocab is that?
15:28:01 <niklasl> Yes; specifically that would be (_:r1) :isSubjectOf (:r2). _:r1 rdf:reifies <<( :s :p :o )>> . _:r2 rdf:reifies <<( :s :p :o )>>.
15:28:05 <doerthe> just an invented predicate, it does not matter, it was more about the construct
15:28:19 <tl> ok
15:28:27 <niklasl> (itself shorthand of those two distinct list (bnode-identified))
15:28:42 <AndyS> I'd like to consider standalone declarations Sepaartign declare and use makes writing programmatic data generation easier (which means less error prone!). c.f. (1 2 3 ) -illegal in Turtle but OK in N3 ( ?? )  Turtle does allow [ :p 123  ] .
15:29:00 <AndyS> s/Sepaartign/Separating/
15:29:19 <enrico> q?
15:29:20 <AndyS> q?
15:29:35 <enrico> ack niklasl
15:30:05 <AndyS> q+
15:31:11 <pchampin> https://champin.net/2022/eurecom/Slides/?full#28
15:31:11 <gb> Issue 28 not found
15:31:13 <enrico> +1 AndyS
15:31:33 <gkellogg> +1 AndyS
15:31:34 <pchampin> +1 AndyS
15:32:29 <enrico> ack AndyS
15:34:16 <Souri> q+
15:34:23 <gkellogg> ack tl
15:34:23 <Zakim> tl, you wanted to quickly ask for comment on "unasserted assertions" (as we're approaching the end)
15:35:04 <Souri> q-
15:35:27 <Souri> q+
15:36:08 <niklasl> +1 to Andy
15:36:16 <Souri> +1
15:36:18 <tl> +1 to andy
15:36:40 <TallTed> PROPOSAL: bring https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-%22minimal-baseline%22 to the full WG
15:36:44 <AndyS> PROPOSAL:  Bring https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-%22minimal-baseline%22 to the full WG
15:36:44 <pchampin> +1
15:36:45 <gkellogg> +1
15:36:46 <niklasl> +1
15:36:48 <AndyS> +1
15:36:49 <TallTed> +1
15:36:59 <Souri> +1
15:37:09 <doerthe> +0.9 (but I will also read once agaon, to make it 1)
15:37:19 <doerthe> again, I meant
15:37:51 <AndyS> RESOLVED: Bring https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-%22minimal-baseline%22 to the full WG
15:37:59 <gkellogg> zakim, generate minutes
15:37:59 <Zakim> I don't understand 'generate minutes', gkellogg
15:38:05 <gkellogg> rrsagent, generate minutes
15:38:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/12-rdf-star-minutes.html gkellogg
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15:38:20 <enrico> present+
15:38:35 <Souri> q-
15:38:38 <tl> q+
15:40:23 <enrico> ack tl
15:44:53 <doerthe> comes back to rdf:instantiates and rdf:reifies
15:46:18 <doerthe> as rdf-star entailment
15:49:26 <gkellogg> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-turtle/pull/51
15:49:26 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-turtle/pull/51 -> Pull Request 51 Grammar updates for triple terms and occurrences. (by gkellogg) [spec:substantive]
15:50:23 <tl> thanks!
15:54:00 <doerthe> I also have to leave, Bye
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16:13:40 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:13:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/12-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
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20:58:42 <gkellogg> zakim, end meeting
20:58:42 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been TallTed, AndyS, tl, pfps, niklasl, gkellogg, pchampin, enrico, doerthe, Souri
20:58:44 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
20:58:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/12-rdf-star-minutes.html Zakim
20:58:50 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, gkellogg; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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20:58:57 <gkellogg> rrsagent, bye
20:58:57 <RRSAgent> I see no action items