14:52:54 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pcg-a11y
14:52:58 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/07/11-pcg-a11y-irc
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14:53:17 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, this will be pcg-a11y
14:53:17 <Zakim> ok, AvneeshSingh
14:53:30 <AvneeshSingh> present+
14:53:40 <AvneeshSingh> chair: AvneeshSingh
14:56:01 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Updates to the Principles and techniques documents.
14:56:31 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Preparing for first public working draft.
14:56:47 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Any other business.
15:00:06 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel has joined #pcg-a11y
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15:01:32 <gpellegrino> present+
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15:03:38 <George> present+
15:05:23 <gpellegrino> scribe+
15:05:29 <gautierchomel> present+
15:05:41 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:05:41 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Updates to the Principles and techniques documents. -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
15:05:57 <AvneeshSingh> Principles: https://w3c.github.io/publ-a11y/UX-Guide-Metadata/draft/principles/?updated
15:05:58 <ChrisOliverOttawa> ChrisOliverOttawa has joined #pcg-a11y
15:06:09 <gpellegrino> George: I made a PR for the Legal consideration new section
15:06:48 <ChrisOliverOttawa> Present+
15:06:53 <gpellegrino> ... I had some comments from editors and I'm waiting for other feedback
15:07:26 <gpellegrino> ... I have a question about this section, do we want to say something about the jurisdiction
15:07:28 <gpellegrino> q+
15:07:38 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
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15:08:16 <Simon_Mellins> present+
15:08:20 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:08:32 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino: I don't think it's only a matter of jurisdiction
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15:09:04 <gpellegrino> ... it's also about end user information, supply chain information
15:09:18 <gpellegrino> ... I think we shouldn't be strict
15:09:36 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:09:48 <gpellegrino> q+
15:09:59 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
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15:10:45 <Hadrien> present+
15:10:58 <gpellegrino> George: is there any metadata where the metadata the publisher can tell if the metadata has to be displayed or not
15:11:09 <gpellegrino> ...?
15:11:31 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino: no way to target the audience of a specific metadata
15:11:47 <gpellegrino> q+
15:12:07 <gpellegrino> George: I can add information about the supply chain
15:12:17 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
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15:13:13 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:13:27 <Hadrien> q+
15:13:28 <gautierchomel> q+
15:14:26 <gpellegrino> AvneeshSingh: I see another use case from national agencies that have to use this information in their work of enforcement
15:14:35 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:15:19 <gpellegrino> Hadrien: I've already heard organization that are basing their procurement of ebooks based on accessibility and accessibility metadata
15:15:50 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:15:51 <gpellegrino> ... like in education and public libraries, more and more organizations are enforcing it
15:17:11 <gpellegrino> gautierchomel: I think publishers we'll use the guidelines to decide of what to put in their metadata for having something displayed
15:17:12 <gpellegrino> q+
15:18:39 <gpellegrino> ... in our guidelines we have always focused on readers and information that are meaningful for them
15:19:11 <Hadrien> q+
15:19:21 <gpellegrino> ... I think we can get consensus in a generic phrase to put
15:19:28 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:23:45 <Simon_Mellins> q+
15:24:08 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino: We already have in the guidelines indications for different type of implementations (B2C, B2B) and both user-friendly and detailed information (like for Conformance)
15:24:59 <gpellegrino> George: ok, what may we put if the publisher do not provide any metadata, but only the exception one?
15:25:01 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:25:36 <gpellegrino> gautierchomel: a generic phrase that say that the title is not compelled to be accessible
15:25:55 <gpellegrino> Hadrien: I think that we need to have a broader view, not only B2C
15:26:33 <gpellegrino> ... because no one else will work on other guidelines
15:27:14 <gpellegrino> ... as a distributor operating in Europe I would ask the publisher title-by-title if they're compliant with the EAA
15:27:17 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:27:49 <gpellegrino> Simon_Mellins: I think it's crucial that the user knows if a title is exempted
15:28:15 <gpellegrino> ... but also we should say that the publisher "claims" to be excempted
15:28:27 <gpellegrino> ... because it has to be proven
15:29:23 <gpellegrino> ... another important thing would be the publisher contact information, for leaving the user the possibility to contact the publisher
15:29:53 <gpellegrino> George: about the claim: at the end every metadata is a claim from the publisher, so I removed "claim" from the statements
15:30:32 <gpellegrino> ... and added a section telling that the whole section of metadata is about claims
15:30:38 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:31:08 <gpellegrino> ... and we are suggesting to call the whole section in the UI the "accessibility claims" or "accessibility declaration"
15:31:56 <gpellegrino> Simon_Mellins: is it only VitalSource that will do that?
15:32:16 <gpellegrino> George: we are suggesting for all implementers to call that section in the UI "accessibility claims"
15:33:03 <gautierchomel> q+
15:33:48 <Hadrien> q+
15:34:06 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:34:06 <gpellegrino> George: if as a publisher I put the exception metadata, do I want to display something?
15:34:34 <gpellegrino> gautierchomel: My proposal is that any exception metadata trigger one common sentence
15:34:52 <gpellegrino> ... like "this ebook is excempted..."
15:34:54 <Simon_Mellins> ... rather than indicating which type of exception is being claimed
15:35:26 <gpellegrino> ... then we're making a guidelines, so every implementer can decide what to display
15:35:33 <gpellegrino> ... or not display
15:35:52 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:36:12 <gpellegrino> Hadrien: I think that the complex thing about this conversation is that publishers don't have control on what metadata will be displayed
15:36:48 <gpellegrino> ... I think that having a simple sentence is important
15:37:13 <gpellegrino> ... at the same time I think that micro-enterprise is really different from disporpotionated burden
15:37:50 <gpellegrino> ... because in the first case you don't have do prove it, in the second you need to make calculations
15:37:57 <gpellegrino> q+
15:38:07 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:38:23 <Simon_Mellins> q+
15:38:31 <gpellegrino> AvneeshSingh: I suggest to make a generic statement, and then link to issuue tracker
15:38:41 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:39:32 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:39:57 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino: I think that then the part of the sentence about what publishers want is misleading
15:40:56 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:40:59 <gpellegrino> Simon_Mellins: I think publishers may not want to display this information, at the same time we should be on the readers side, and for them having this information may be important
15:41:33 <gpellegrino> George: do we want to suggest to contact the publisher
15:41:34 <gpellegrino> q+
15:41:38 <gautierchomel> q+
15:42:27 <gpellegrino> may we suggest to use the accessibility summary to give publisher contacts?
15:42:55 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:44:07 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:44:50 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino: It seems a little bit misleading to give direction to publishers in this guidelines, seems they are not the target audience
15:45:38 <gpellegrino> gautierchomel: I think that don't listening publishers' voice is not a good thing for this guidelines
15:45:59 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:46:16 <gpellegrino> George: do we want to open a new issue and link to the new issue?
15:46:57 <gpellegrino> gautierchomel: I think having a new issue is good, since now we have reached consensus and we have a new discussion
15:47:07 <gpellegrino> George: I'll do it
15:47:27 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino: no updates on the ONIX side of techniqes
15:48:07 <gpellegrino> George: no updated on the EPUB metadata side
15:48:16 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:48:16 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Preparing for first public working draft. -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
15:48:28 <gpellegrino> ... I think we'll then have to make sections on both techniques for Legal considerations
15:48:57 <gpellegrino> AvneeshSingh: we are nearly ready to publish the first public working draft
15:49:16 <gpellegrino> ... the scope is to present it to the industry and get feedback
15:49:25 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:49:41 <gpellegrino> ... do you think we're missing something before publish the draft?
15:49:53 <gpellegrino> George: the only question I have is about sample implementation
15:49:59 <gautierchomel> q+
15:50:16 <gpellegrino> ... maybe we need to have the draft published before having the implementations
15:50:19 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:50:48 <gpellegrino> gautierchomel: we have an implementation in French
15:51:02 <gpellegrino> ... but maybe it's better to wait
15:51:39 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:51:44 <gpellegrino> AvneeshSingh: yes, I think we can wait and than update the draft
15:52:06 <gpellegrino> gautierchomel: maybe is better to have a separate page for list of implementations
15:52:47 <gpellegrino> AvneeshSingh: we made this section for giving the reader different type of implementations of there guidelines
15:52:57 <gpellegrino> ... with different flavours
15:53:19 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:53:42 <gpellegrino> q+
15:53:53 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:54:29 <gpellegrino> gautierchomel: my concern is if we have too many implementations
15:54:55 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino: I think we have an issue for listing all the implementers, we can reference it from the Implementation section
15:55:10 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:55:21 <gpellegrino> q+
15:55:36 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:56:49 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:56:52 <gpellegrino> AvneeshSingh: when will we be ready to publish the first draft?
15:57:36 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino: if we're in a rush, we can publish it by the end of the next week
15:57:52 <gpellegrino> George: I will tell BISG, for their webinar
15:59:05 <gpellegrino> AvneeshSingh: maybe we can ask people from the group to give feedback on specific sections of the document
15:59:15 <gpellegrino> George: we can ask Matt to read it
16:00:06 <gpellegrino> AvneeshSingh: do we need another call two weeks from now?
16:00:25 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:00:44 <gpellegrino> George: I don't think a lot of people will partecipate
16:01:06 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:01:50 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make minutes
16:01:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/11-pcg-a11y-minutes.html AvneeshSingh
16:02:01 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make logs public
16:02:59 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, leave
16:03:00 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been AvneeshSingh, gpellegrino, George, gautierchomel, ChrisOliverOttawa, Simon_Mellins, Hadrien
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