13:38:15 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 13:38:19 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/06/27-i18n-irc 13:38:20 Zakim has joined #i18n 13:38:30 Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference 13:38:36 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/b40424a9-1664-4b61-965c-27712bb6a648/20240627T150000/ 13:38:36 clear agenda 13:38:36 agenda+ Agenda Review 13:38:36 agenda+ Action Items 13:38:38 agenda+ Info Share 13:38:40 agenda+ RADAR Review 13:38:42 agenda+ Pending Issue Review 13:38:42 Chair: Addison Phillips 13:38:45 agenda+ Latin Layout Requirements and DPUB Pagination 13:38:47 agenda+ String-Meta Consumer Best Practices 13:38:50 agenda+ WHATNOT Prep 13:38:52 agenda+ AOB? 13:38:59 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/27-i18n-minutes.html addison 13:59:03 JcK has joined #i18n 13:59:14 present+ Addison, JcK 14:00:09 present+ Richard 14:01:04 present+ Fuqiao 14:03:07 scribe+ 14:03:45 zakim, take up agendum 1 14:03:45 agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:03:49 agenda? 14:04:57 agenda+ Publishing Urdu counter styles PR 14:05:59 zakim, take up agendum 2 14:05:59 agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:06:11 #110 14:06:12 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/110 -> Action 110 create new latin lreq document to host dpig contents (on r12a) due 2024-06-27 14:06:43 r12a: I've been working on the latin lreq 14:06:53 ... I spent quite a lot of time today working on it 14:07:13 ... it takes a while 14:07:27 present+ Bert 14:07:55 #109 14:07:56 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/109 -> Action 109 reply to pub folk about updating dpub-latinreq to point to our (new) document (on aphillips) due 2024-06-27 14:08:06 scribe+ 14:08:18 close #109 14:08:20 Closed -> issue #109 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/109 14:08:30 #107 14:08:30 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/107 -> Action 107 write an issue about quote auto behavior for non-q elements (on frivoal) due 2024-06-25 14:08:44 #106 14:08:44 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/106 -> Action 106 write to ietf group about rfc9457 (on aphillips) due 2024-06-20 14:09:00 #105 14:09:01 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/105 -> Action 105 Review https://deploy-preview-87--string-meta.netlify.app/#bp-consumers (on r12a) due 2024-06-13 14:09:31 r12a: Done! 14:09:49 close #105 14:09:50 Closed -> issue #105 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/105 14:09:56 #104 14:09:56 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/104 -> Action 104 follow up on action#4 by writing an email (on aphillips) due 2024-06-13 14:10:36 close #104 14:10:38 Closed -> issue #104 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/104 14:10:38 addison: Respec/bikeshed markup thing. I volnteered r12a and myself to review pull requests. 14:10:47 #93 14:10:48 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/93 -> Action 93 create best practices for consumers in string-meta (on aphillips) due 2024-04-25 14:10:58 #90 14:10:59 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/90 -> Action 90 steal some of henri's text from scroll-to-text-fragment for string-search (on aphillips) due 2024-04-18 14:11:04 #89 14:11:04 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/89 -> Action 89 update i18n specs to support dark mode (on xfq) due 2024-04-18 14:11:19 #79 14:11:19 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/79 -> Action 79 schedule a follow-up call with WHATNOT in ~April (on aphillips) due 2024-03-07 14:11:53 addison: I will check when the next call is, probably in 2 weeks. 14:11:56 #78 14:11:57 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/78 -> Action 78 compare infra to i18n-glossary export list and report back (on aphillips) due 2024-03-07 14:12:28 agenda? 14:12:31 addison: I made a set of pending issues against Infra for things in conflict between our two documents 14:12:43 agenda+ I18N-glossary vs. Infra 14:12:53 #33 14:12:54 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/33 -> Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG for further review (on aphillips) 14:13:14 addison: We have some needs-attention issues still open. 14:13:20 #8 14:13:20 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/8 -> Action 8 Follow up on the status of Canvas and formatted text (on aphillips) due 18 Jul 2023 14:13:25 #7 14:13:25 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/7 -> Action 7 Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting comment resolutions (Evergreen) (on aphillips, xfq, himorin, r12a, bert-github) due 18 Jul 2023 14:13:35 #4 14:13:36 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/4 -> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on aphillips, r12a) due 27 Jul 2023 14:13:44 zakim, take up agendum 3 14:13:44 agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:13:53 q+ 14:13:57 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/27-i18n-minutes.html addison 14:14:04 ack next 14:14:39 r12a: I did a bidi webinar on Tuesday. Seems to have gone well. Muchr bigger attention than in past two years. 14:15:14 ... 175 was previous record, now 370 registered. 176 or so turned up. 14:15:28 ... Another scheduled for August. Topic not yet decided. 14:15:55 ... I suggested we hold a 3rd webinar, about creating content that might become localized in to arabic etc. 14:16:11 ... about markup, CSS, etc. 14:16:33 ... I might do that as a W3C employee then, rather than as myself. 14:16:48 ... Got good publicity. 14:16:55 addison: Recorded? 14:17:02 r12a++ 14:17:03 r12a: Yes, it will be on Youtube. 14:17:23 zakim, take up agendum 4 14:17:23 agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:17:25 present+ atsushi 14:17:30 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/91/views/1 14:17:50 addison: No new incoming requests 14:18:46 xfq: I also reviewed HTML ruby, and found no other issues. 14:18:54 agenda? 14:18:58 zakim, take up agendum 10 14:18:58 agendum 10 -- Publishing Urdu counter styles PR -- taken up [from addison] 14:19:13 https://github.com/w3c/predefined-counter-styles/pull/64 14:19:13 https://github.com/w3c/predefined-counter-styles/pull/64 -> Pull Request 64 index: Add Urdu styles (by r12a) 14:19:29 r12a: Any objections to publishng ^^ ? 14:19:46 ... i.e., merge and put on /TR. 14:20:08 addison: Chnages seem more involved than just style. 14:21:03 r12a: Correct. I'm waiting for objections. There are some notes. About alphabetic counters, e.g. 14:21:43 ... I've been waiting for a couple of months but got no reactions from @@sidac 14:21:44 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_for_Development_of_Advanced_Computing 14:22:04 s/@@sidac/CDAC/ 14:23:03 r12a: CDAC is not the ministry, but they tend to work together. How do I describe them? 14:23:29 ... And it is apparently "C-DAC" with a hyphen. 14:23:44 addison: So, shall I merge it? 14:24:03 r12a: Let me first make the chnage xfq suggested. 14:24:22 ... It is C-DAC in some places, but not all, not in the logo. 14:24:30 agenda? 14:24:52 zakim, take up agendum 6 14:24:52 agendum 6 -- Latin Layout Requirements and DPUB Pagination -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:25:26 r12a: Halfway through creating a template for them. 14:25:35 zakim, take up agendum 11 14:25:35 agendum 11 -- I18N-glossary vs. Infra -- taken up [from addison] 14:25:54 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Apending+label%3As%3Ainfra 14:26:20 addison: Let's walk through this ^^ 14:26:51 ... Infra spec defines core terminalogy for WHATWG. And they've been promoting it also for W3C specs. 14:27:42 i18n-activity#1875 14:27:42 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1875 -> Issue 1875 Byte descriptions vs. character descriptions (by aphillips) [pending] [needs-resolution] [s:infra] [whatwg] 14:27:50 ... They have code point string. They strip away some of the core jargon that we have in our spec. Some issues have to do with that. 14:28:44 ... They have some specification for how to include byte and character inclusions, and it is different from ours. 14:29:06 ... E.g., the namse for characters they chose are not the Unicode names (for bvytes). 14:29:17 s/bvytes/bytes/ 14:29:35 i18n-activity#1876 14:29:35 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1876 -> Issue 1876 Whatwg vs. I18N character styling (by aphillips) [pending] [needs-resolution] [s:infra] [whatwg] 14:30:06 r12a: We might tell them we have ways to do that. 14:30:36 addison: Ours is very systematic and we are adding it to Respec. 14:30:45 r12a: They might not ne impressed. 14:31:05 addison: They should at least allow it, even if they don't adopt it for HTML. 14:31:25 r12a: I don't think it is an issue. But whatn is an issue is that they don't use the UNicode names. 14:32:03 ... E.g., when they say "... followed by left parenthis", it is not actually a left paren, it is an opening paren. 14:32:07 csarven: 14:32:23 s/csarven:// 14:34:01 JcK: When somebody is reading in order to figure out what to do, all this terminology variations is a source of confusiom and makes things worse. This paren issue is an excellent example. 14:34:01 addison has joined #i18n 14:34:14 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/27-i18n-minutes.html addison 14:34:49 ... Terminology was carefully reviewed and when somebody makes something up, because they don't like it... 14:35:14 addison: The other issues I have are basically about thet. We have over the years made a set of jargon. 14:35:38 i18n-activity#1877 14:35:39 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1877 -> Issue 1877 Unicode code point vs. code point (by aphillips) [pending] [needs-resolution] [s:infra] [whatwg] 14:35:45 i18n-activity#1878 14:35:46 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1878 -> Issue 1878 "code points are characters" (by aphillips) [pending] [needs-resolution] [s:infra] [whatwg] 14:36:05 ... The authors of Infra understand it, but they think they can make things easier for their readers. 14:36:53 ... One issue is what code point means. We use it as code point in the current character set, they mean it as Unicode code point. 14:37:13 ... They also use it to mean UTF-16 code point. 14:37:33 ... We distinguish code point, code units, character, 14:37:51 ... Their definition of character is not clear. 14:38:07 ... We don't use character unless it is unambiguous. 14:38:23 r12a: ... or unless it is unimportant. 14:38:29 addison: yes 14:39:18 xfq: Not so important to convince them about character styling, but useful to use the definitions. 14:40:31 addison: The Infra authors in general understand and use the terms in the right places, but others may not understand "character" as well. 14:41:12 ... They should use the Unicode names for characters. They are standard and wellknown. 14:42:32 ... I don't intend to file these as issues. Should I compile them into something, including our present conversation? 14:43:15 JcK: Give some examples of where confusion comes from. 14:43:48 addison: I'll draw all of them into a single issues and then we can review it next week before presentation. 14:44:00 addison has joined #i18n 14:44:11 agenda? 14:45:24 zakim, take up agendum 7 14:45:24 agendum 7 -- String-Meta Consumer Best Practices -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:45:37 https://deploy-preview-87--string-meta.netlify.app/#bp-consumers 14:47:15 r12a: I think the should already be in the "before" code, not in the replacement of the variable. 14:48:09 ... We say that in our articles. If you include HTML, you should enclose it in bdi or span. 14:48:54 ... But you don't know if the should have dir=rtl or rtl 14:49:12 addison: I assume that somehow comes from the variable. 14:49:56 ... I see that I need to reformulate the example. 14:51:10 r12a: The FSI (first strong isolate) is not the right one in this example. You should use RLI. 14:51:27 addison: That's what I do. 14:51:54 ... I can all out that it produces the wrong result for this kind of string. 14:52:00 s/ all/call/ 14:52:22 addison: How about the rest, the requirements? are they correct. 14:52:32 r12a: I have no comments on those. 14:53:27 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/pull/591/files 14:53:28 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/pull/591 -> Pull Request 591 Address comments (by aphillips) 14:55:13 xfq: (I added a preview to the first comment, so you can see it better than with netlify.) 14:55:47 r12a: Best results if you indent the code, and indent the code by the same amount of spaces. 14:56:02 addison: It uses a 2018 style sheet. 14:56:15 r12a: There is a 2022 style, isn't there? 14:56:59 ... New styles come with new shapes for the document, so not so easy to just replace everything. 14:57:15 xfq: I think we use 2022 style for the new articles. 14:58:20 r12a: I would be great to be able to point to this article soon. 14:58:33 addison: Yes, I'd like to point to it, too. 14:58:40 r12a: Publish tomorrow, then? 14:58:54 addison: Sure, but I'll check the new style sheet first. 14:59:11 https://www.w3.org/International/i18n-activity/guidelines/editing 14:59:25 r12a: Also compare to an article that uses the latest style and also the latest markup. 14:59:46 xfq: ^^ shows templates 15:00:02 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-editors/ 15:00:16 r12a: Also see i18n-editors repo 15:00:36 agenda? 15:00:43 https://www.w3.org/International/i18n-activity/guidelines/editing#files 15:00:50 zakim, take up agendum 9 15:00:50 agendum 9 -- AOB? -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:02:15 addison: Next week is 4th of July, US holiday. Meeting or not? 15:03:57 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/27-i18n-minutes.html addison 15:04:05 r12a: Gap analysis for Udru scheduled for publishing on Tuesday. 15:04:18 addison: So let's have a meeting next week. 15:20:38 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/27-i18n-minutes.html addison 15:20:51 zakim, bye 15:20:51 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Addison, JcK, Richard, Fuqiao, Bert, atsushi 15:20:51 Zakim has left #i18n 15:28:59 bigbluehat has joined #i18n