IRC log of adapt on 2024-06-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:57:58 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/06/18-adapt-irc
13:58:03 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:58:04 [Zakim]
please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), janina
13:58:17 [janina]
Meeting: WAI-Adapt Teleconference
13:58:23 [janina]
Date 18 Jun 2024
13:58:28 [janina]
Chair: Lionel
14:02:14 [Russell]
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14:02:28 [Russell]
present+
14:02:37 [Abhinav]
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14:03:47 [Lionel_Wolberger]
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14:03:50 [Lionel_Wolberger]
agenda+ Introductions. Updates.
14:03:57 [janina]
present+
14:03:57 [Lionel_Wolberger]
agenda+ Issue 240 Finalizations
14:04:04 [Lionel_Wolberger]
agenda+ Symbols explainer
14:04:25 [Lionel_Wolberger]
agenda+ Well known destinations
14:05:25 [Lionel_Wolberger]
present+
14:05:30 [Lionel_Wolberger]
zakim, who is here?
14:05:30 [Zakim]
Present: Russell, janina, Lionel_Wolberger
14:05:32 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Lionel_Wolberger, Abhinav, Russell, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, Roy, gb, dmontalvo
14:05:45 [Abhinav]
present+
14:06:25 [Lionel_Wolberger]
scribe+
14:06:30 [Lionel_Wolberger]
zakim, next item
14:06:30 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Introductions. Updates. -- taken up [from Lionel_Wolberger]
14:06:56 [matatk]
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14:07:33 [janina]
scribe+
14:08:30 [matatk]
q+
14:08:30 [janina]
Lionel_Wolberger: Reviews COGA participation
14:08:36 [Lionel_Wolberger]
zakim, next item
14:08:36 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Lionel_Wolberger
14:09:01 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Lionel_Wolberger: We met with COGA but did not have time to discuss symbols. They invited us for a return visit to discuss same.
14:10:12 [janina]
Lionel_Wolberger: Suggests check for open items?
14:10:53 [janina]
Russell: Issue 240 conversation continues
14:11:16 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Lionel: Link, https://github.com/w3c/adapt/issues/240
14:11:26 [janina]
matatk: We believe we've addressed WHAT concerns by our post
14:11:36 [janina]
matatk: We're waiting for their response
14:11:47 [janina]
s/waiting for/awaiting/
14:12:03 [janina]
matatk: How long do we give them?
14:12:15 [janina]
matatk: It's summertime, it could be weeks!
14:12:52 [Lionel_Wolberger]
. need to provide agenda to TPAC
14:12:56 [Lionel_Wolberger]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:12:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/18-adapt-minutes.html Lionel_Wolberger
14:13:05 [janina]
matatk: Gentle nudging might be providing details for our TPAC agenda which symbols will certainly be agendad
14:13:42 [janina]
matatk: On the side we should read COGA doc for any design showstoppers
14:14:10 [janina]
Russell: Had very positive Unicode meeting; good support for getting Bliss in asap
14:14:41 [janina]
Russell: Notes unicode is volunteer maintained
14:15:17 [janina]
Russell: So we're somewhat detained by maintainer availability
14:15:51 [janina]
Russell: Registry we're part of was not maintained, so a bit of extra work
14:16:49 [janina]
Russell: Wouldn't expect asking unicode to maintain would be suboptimal
14:17:01 [janina]
Lionel_Wolberger: we're interested in normative and scalable
14:17:31 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... this emoji registry is likely not sufficiently normative for our use
14:18:14 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina: The user agent will likely rely on unicode values, but the registry will likely be W3C hosted as we have been planning
14:18:24 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... and will better support authoring as a result
14:21:59 [Lionel_Wolberger]
zakim, next item
14:21:59 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Lionel_Wolberger
14:22:03 [Lionel_Wolberger]
ack matatk
14:22:04 [Lionel_Wolberger]
zakim, next item
14:22:04 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Issue 240 Finalizations -- taken up [from Lionel_Wolberger]
14:22:16 [Lionel_Wolberger]
zakim, close this item
14:22:16 [Zakim]
agendum 2 closed
14:22:17 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:22:17 [Zakim]
3. Symbols explainer [from Lionel_Wolberger]
14:22:19 [Lionel_Wolberger]
zakim, next item
14:22:19 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Symbols explainer -- taken up [from Lionel_Wolberger]
14:23:28 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Lionel_Wolberger: symbols are variously called AAC symbols, glyphs, pictograms, emojis, icons, emoticons, logograms, ideograms
14:23:42 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... Icons: Looking at the bottom of this GMail I see a tiny paperclip and a padlock. These are icons, simplified drawings meant to represent functions like attaching a file or securing data. Click them, and they do their job. In the screen reader they receive whatever label was assigned by the Google team.
14:24:16 [matatk]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:24:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/18-adapt-minutes.html matatk
14:24:24 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... emojis are supported in all chat and documents
14:24:33 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... AAC Symbols (ARASAAC): In hospitals and therapeutic settings, you’ll find symbol boards with small cartoons. These are used for communication, where users touch a square to express needs or thoughts. All hospitals offer a drawing of a cup of water, meant to indicate thirst--but the drawing is different in each locale.
14:24:50 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... Wingdings and Unicode: Unicode and ASCII are character sets for computer displays, including everything from letters and numbers to scissors and bells.
14:25:31 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... Bliss Symbolics: An entire language of non-alphanumeric glyphs curated by an international community. These symbols can convey complex messages
14:25:47 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... one member of the community was translating the Bible into Bliss Symbolics
14:26:14 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... Our work in dealing with symbols has been challenging, here are some of the reasons
14:27:09 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Russell: Some symbols are not intended to be tiny
14:27:24 [janina]
only some?
14:28:04 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Lionel_Wolberger: No Universal Term: We haven’t agreed on a single word for these things.
14:28:43 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... Lack of Universal Semantics: What means something in one context might be meaningless or confusing in another.
14:28:51 [janina]
q+
14:29:45 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... Audience Confusion: Try explaining the potential benefits of universal semantics for these symbols, without these general terms
14:29:59 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... Our goal is to create specifications for content authors to add semantic metadata to symbols.
14:30:17 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... or encode the symbols with semantic metadata
14:31:32 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Russell: Add 'logogram' to the list of potential terms
14:31:48 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina: We do need a good taxonomical structure, and words that communicate well
14:32:03 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... we think this will make a big splash so we need good words
14:32:10 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... but it may be very hard to pin it down
14:32:28 [matatk]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:32:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/18-adapt-minutes.html matatk
14:32:37 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... I think hieroglyphs should work, would like to explore why it does not
14:32:49 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... I don't think we are 'adding semantic' data
14:33:39 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... we are seeking to embed lexical meaning into web content, as that is what happens when you transform ARASAAC to another symbol set
14:34:19 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Russell: We are trying to come up with a word that covers all these different terms, of things that serve different purposes and are different subsets
14:34:58 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina: Lexical meaning is the meaning that the dictionary conveys
14:36:24 [matatk]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:36:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/18-adapt-minutes.html matatk
14:36:31 [Lionel_Wolberger]
zakim, next item
14:36:31 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Lionel_Wolberger
14:36:35 [Lionel_Wolberger]
q?
14:36:40 [Lionel_Wolberger]
ack janina
14:36:43 [Lionel_Wolberger]
zakim, next item
14:36:43 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- Well known destinations -- taken up [from Lionel_Wolberger]
14:36:49 [Russell]
present-
14:37:06 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Topic: Discussing WKD with Coga
14:37:06 [matatk]
present+ Russell
14:37:06 [matatk]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:37:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/18-adapt-minutes.html matatk
14:37:17 [janina]
Lionel_Wolberger: They didn't not like it!
14:37:21 [janina]
matatk: They did like it!
14:37:30 [janina]
matatk: Have notes from call ...\
14:37:52 [janina]
matatk: Caught 5 specific questions/comments/interventions
14:38:49 [janina]
Lionel_Wolberger: COGA excited to have systematic access to WKD: Very concerned for help and support; now in WCAG 2.2
14:38:50 [matatk]
s/Coga/COGA/
14:38:52 [matatk]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:38:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/18-adapt-minutes.html matatk
14:39:08 [janina]
Lionel_Wolberger: Expressed in various ways
14:39:17 [janina]
Lionel_Wolberger: Raised two focus concerns
14:39:31 [janina]
Lionel_Wolberger: What about a URI with many services? Which do you show?
14:39:57 [janina]
Lionel_Wolberger: Also interested to jump to location on page
14:40:13 [janina]
Lionel_Wolberger: Avoid banner, ads, etc
14:40:31 [janina]
janina: And grey out everything else--even if they didn't articulate that in this telecon
14:40:59 [janina]
matatk: little to add ...
14:41:16 [janina]
matatk: Have 5 to review but touch on these themes
14:41:25 [janina]
q+
14:41:57 [janina]
q+ to suggest we can't be responsible for ambiguous information publishing design patterns
14:42:25 [janina]
matatk: Help: Content on page? Chatbot? Human? What kind of help
14:43:01 [janina]
matatk: Keen to continue a conversation with us
14:44:09 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Abhinav: Please spell out the problem with multiple services on a single FQDN
14:45:08 [janina]
matatk: 5 questions re frame of reference/inclusion questions
14:45:22 [janina]
matatk: Present the user with a term they expect
14:45:58 [janina]
matatk: If help says "sign-in"; is it OK for us to generadize to login?
14:46:29 [janina]
matatk: A site should be aware--but they may not be
14:47:20 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Lionel_Wolberger: 'should be aware' -- the site, having configured the well-known url, should be quite aware of which pages are on offer
14:48:20 [janina]
matatk: Next divergence between what people expect and what they will get
14:48:42 [Lionel_Wolberger]
matatk: The broad WKD, like 'help' could lead to chat, phone, email, or a FAQ.
14:48:44 [janina]
matatk: We noted help and support module coming; but we need to be design mindful now
14:49:01 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... users will want to know what to expect when they reach a well known destination
14:49:16 [Lionel_Wolberger]
q+
14:49:19 [Abhinav]
q+
14:49:34 [janina]
~m
14:49:58 [Lionel_Wolberger]
matatk: Location on the page. Would like the destination to resolve to a location on the page
14:50:00 [janina]
matatk: 3 Where on the page; was interpreted different ways
14:50:10 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... location also can refer to where the WKD list is
14:50:17 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... we would like it in the user agent
14:50:30 [janina]
matatk: Highlighting the relevant content was raised
14:51:26 [janina]
matatk: 4 about search destination ...
14:51:43 [janina]
matatk: Noted that search is sometimes with a chatbot
14:51:54 [janina]
matatk: So a matter of setting expectations
14:52:22 [janina]
matatk: 5 about subsites ...
14:52:32 [janina]
matatk: Had the example of hotel
14:52:52 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... We have had a use case of a hotel that also has a spa, which login is supported?
14:52:53 [janina]
matatk: We heard of bank site, once logged in home page might be your personal account once logged in
14:53:37 [janina]
matatk: Call noted COGA documentation on returning to beginning of a process interaction -- but that doesn't have a URI
14:54:19 [janina]
matatk: What we go with needs to be defined by our use cases
14:55:19 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Lionel_Wolberger has joined #Adapt
14:55:31 [matatk]
q?
14:55:34 [matatk]
ack janina
14:55:34 [Zakim]
janina, you wanted to suggest we can't be responsible for ambiguous information publishing design patterns
14:55:35 [Lionel_Wolberger]
ack Lionel_Wolberger
14:55:36 [matatk]
ack Lionel_Wolberger
14:55:44 [Lionel_Wolberger]
ack Abhinav
14:55:52 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Abhinav: Question about a chat bot
14:56:07 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... how can we know what kind of support is found for a particular site
14:57:23 [janina]
Lionel_Wolberger: Site owners will decide!
14:57:30 [janina]
matatk: IA thoughts for next time!
14:57:40 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... we can write paragraphs on what the standard will expect
14:57:45 [Lionel_Wolberger]
zakim, end meeting
14:57:45 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Russell, janina, Lionel_Wolberger, Abhinav
14:57:46 [matatk]
present+
14:57:47 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:57:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/18-adapt-minutes.html Zakim
14:57:54 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, Lionel_Wolberger; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
14:57:55 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #adapt