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13:56:35 <tzviya> Meeting: Publishing SC
13:56:45 <tzviya> Date: 2024-06-14
13:56:53 <tzviya> Chair: Tzviya
13:57:10 <shiestyle> shiestyle has joined #pbgsc
13:57:52 <tzviya> present+ Tzviya, Daihei
13:59:13 <AvneeshSingh> AvneeshSingh has joined #pbgsc
13:59:19 <AvneeshSingh> present+
13:59:39 <wolfgang> wolfgang has joined #pbgsc
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14:00:40 <shiestyle> present+
14:00:56 <liisamk> liisamk has joined #pbgsc
14:00:58 <tzviya> regrets+ Leslie
14:01:05 <tzviya> Regrets+ RickJ
14:01:11 <liisamk> present+
14:01:18 <wendyreid> present+
14:01:39 <ivan> present+
14:02:51 <wolfgang> present+
14:02:56 <tzviya> present+ George
14:03:06 <wolfgang> I see you, but I have currently nos sound
14:03:06 <tzviya> present+ Graham
14:03:13 <Ralph> present+
14:03:20 <Ralph> scribe+
14:04:01 <Ralph> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2024Jun/0000.html
14:05:25 <Ralph> present+ Cristina
14:06:08 <Ralph> topic: Chairing the CG
14:06:18 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
14:06:34 <Ralph> Tzviya: I sent a -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2024Jun/att-0000/PublishingW3C.xlsx "list" compiled with Amy's help
14:06:51 <Ralph> ... any ideas?
14:07:32 <Ralph> Graham: it isn't clear in which W3C activities each of these are involved
14:07:39 <Ralph> Tzviya: there's a filter for that
14:07:54 <Ralph> ... remember that anyone can join the CG
14:08:39 <Ralph> ... we need at least one more chair; chairing is time-consuming and needs to be shared by at least two people
14:09:01 <Ralph> ... one of the role of the chairs is to be cheerleaders to get things done between meetings
14:09:12 <Ralph> Wendy: chairing is mostly admin
14:09:30 <Ralph> Tzviya: we need a functional CG [for the health of the activity]
14:09:33 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
14:09:39 <George> present+
14:10:00 <Ralph> Wendy: if there are others you know who you think might be interested, [please talk with them]
14:10:05 <tzviya> present+ Bill
14:10:47 <wolfgang> q+
14:10:52 <Ralph> Tzviya: please look at the list and consider who would be great candidates to chair
14:10:54 <tzviya> ack wolfgang
14:11:26 <Ralph> Wolfgang: I do intend to continue as a chair of the CG but request assistance, especially with a colleague who has experience at the business level
14:11:43 <George> q+
14:11:43 <Ralph> topic: Updates about outreach to other organizations
14:12:10 <Ralph> Liisa: Brian is very amenable to discussing co-branding a series of meetings with BISG
14:12:21 <Ralph> ... perhaps an hour on a monthly basis
14:12:42 <Ralph> ... Leslie proposed a 10-15 minute report followed by open dialogue
14:12:57 <Ralph> ... Brian has given us a proposal for a series of meetings August - December
14:13:13 <Ralph> ... Leslie has provided feedback and we're discussing possible topics
14:13:24 <Ralph> Tzviya: e.g. someone talking about EAA
14:13:48 <Ralph> Liisa: and audio spec; who is using it an how, what else could we do with audio
14:13:50 <tzviya> q+ bill
14:13:56 <Ralph> ... we have 3 topics for 5 months
14:14:01 <Ralph> ... haven't yet set timing
14:14:13 <Ralph> Tzviya: who do we need to talk with about co-branding?
14:14:14 <ivan> q+
14:14:29 <ivan> q-
14:14:31 <wendyreid> scribe+
14:14:35 <tzviya> ack ivan
14:14:39 <Ralph> Ivan: we should involve Comm
14:14:51 <Ralph> ... Coralie is very good at these things
14:15:16 <wendyreid> Ralph: Agreed, must involve comms
14:15:42 <tzviya> ack George
14:15:43 <Ralph> action: Liisa contact W3C Comm
14:15:47 <ivan> -> Coralie's email  <coralie@w3.org>
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14:15:57 <Ralph> George: I am participating in BISG Metadata Accessibility work
14:16:12 <Ralph> ... the Publishing CG with Avneesh as TF lead is developing the user experience guide
14:16:20 <Ralph> ... we expect to have a draft out soon
14:16:33 <Ralph> ... this is going to be really important to BISG, BIC, and publishers in general
14:16:39 <cristina> present+
14:16:43 <Ralph> ... it's of course involved with the EAA
14:16:50 <wendyreid> q+ to clarify that
14:16:52 <Ralph> ... Canada has adopted the language of the EAA
14:17:22 <Ralph> ... in April the US Department of Education issued a ruling that will go into effect over the next 2 years that imposes stricter requirements for a11y on websites and content
14:17:35 <Ralph> ... we have a lot of opportunities to bring web and EPUB accessibility to the forefront
14:17:41 <tzviya> ack bi
14:17:42 <Ralph> ... it would be great to jump on those opportunities
14:17:47 <liisamk> q+
14:17:58 <Ralph> Bill: in terms of topics with BISG, try to opt for more-specific
14:18:19 <Ralph> ... e.g. "accessibility" as a topic is less specific; "EAA" as a topic will get a lot of interest
14:18:45 <Graham> Graham has joined #pbgsc
14:18:55 <tzviya> ack wendyreid
14:18:55 <Zakim> wendyreid, you wanted to clarify that
14:18:57 <Ralph> ... also accessibility metadata as a topic would be of great interest
14:19:09 <wendyreid> https://accessible.canada.ca/en-301-549-accessibility-requirements-ict-products-and-services
14:19:34 <Ralph> Wendy: regarding Canada, it did not adopt EAA; it did adopt EN 301 549
14:20:01 <Ralph> ... this is part of the Accessible Canada Act so it strictly only applies to government departments
14:20:11 <Ralph> ... but hopefully it will lead to others
14:20:30 <Ralph> ... it is in effect now but the dates for the Accessible Canada Act are, I think, 2030
14:20:32 <tzviya> ack liisamk
14:20:35 <Ralph> s/departments/entitites
14:20:47 <Ralph> s/entitities/entities
14:21:15 <Ralph> Liisa: George, do you want to make metadata a11y a part of the series of co-branded conversations with BISG?
14:21:28 <Ralph> ... one of Brian's subtopics under a11y is metadata
14:21:40 <Ralph> ... it sounds like what the TF is doing may work well as a part of this series
14:21:41 <tzviya> q+ to ask if you want ideas
14:21:48 <Ralph> George: yes, I think that would be great
14:22:12 <Ralph> ... the a11y metadata is also being brought forward in the NISO a11y series that is running every Thursday
14:22:21 <Ralph> ... a11y metadata is super-important
14:22:46 <Ralph> ... Brian has asked Richard and me about the a11y quckstart guide they published 5-6 years ago and is not being maintained
14:22:51 <Graham> q+
14:23:02 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask if you want ideas
14:23:02 <tzviya> ack liis
14:23:23 <Ralph> Tzviya: Liisa, do you want other ideas outside of a11y?
14:23:25 <wolfgang> s/quckstart/quickstart/
14:23:26 <Ralph> Liisa: of course
14:23:46 <Ralph> Tzviya: identifier management is of interest
14:24:04 <tzviya> ack bill
14:24:08 <Ralph> ... Ivan or Heather [Flanagan] could talk about that
14:24:28 <Ralph> Bill: the Quickstart guide to which George referred was developed by Robin Seaman
14:24:52 <Ralph> ... BISG owned the document but it was bequeathed to DAISY
14:24:56 <tzviya> ack Graham
14:25:08 <Ralph> ... with Robin's passing that document has become out of date
14:25:27 <Ralph> Graham: we have programmed into our October mini-conference in Frankfurt a session on a11y metadata
14:25:37 <Ralph> ... that will incorporate the guide to display a11y metadata
14:25:45 <Ralph> ... Gregorio agreed to speak at this
14:26:05 <Ralph> Tzviya: perhaps there's an opportunity for larger co-branding
14:26:19 <Ralph> Graham: we can reach out to a few others of our members
14:26:36 <Ralph> ... when BISG comes to talk about a11y metadata we'd be happy to get involved with that particular session
14:26:52 <Ralph> Wendy: I was going to reach out to Booknet Canada and still plan to do that
14:27:06 <Ralph> Tzviya: they have a new director who is amazingly capable
14:27:23 <Ralph> Wendy: I want to let her get settled before I reach out
14:27:57 <Ralph> Tzviya: I know that W3C Comm is very busy right now too
14:28:00 <Ralph> topic: TPAC workshop event
14:28:19 <Ralph> Tzviya: the Publishing WG is on the TPAC schedule for Monday
14:28:34 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/pm-wg/issues/5
14:28:50 <Ralph> ... the WG has developed an agenda; it has plenty to do if we decide not to have a workshop event
14:29:10 <Ralph> Wendy: see ^^ link where we are gathering ideas
14:29:18 <Ralph> ... there is a lot we could potentially discuss
14:29:27 <Ralph> ... we need to narrow down to things we _can_ discuss
14:29:35 <AvneeshSingh> q+
14:29:38 <tzviya> ack AvneeshSingh
14:30:01 <Ralph> Avneesh: the WG's agenda is very full; I was concerned it has too much to digest
14:30:25 <Ralph> ... considering a workshop agenda, let's split: WG business and cross-pollination
14:30:42 <Ralph> ... we need to published a spec and we need to discuss some controversial things f2f
14:31:05 <Ralph> ... for a workshop, the ideas from Leslie and Graham are what we should consider
14:31:15 <Ralph> ... we should not expect publishers to attend TPAC
14:31:49 <Ralph> ... we should socialize with our contacts what we could do and discuss at TPAC what we want to do considering our possible collaborations
14:32:23 <Ralph> Wendy: sorry, I have to drop for another meeting
14:32:40 <Ralph> Liisa: the question on what we need to do to be able to make bigger changes to EPUB; is that a good conversation for TPAC?
14:32:51 <Ralph> Avneesh: it could be a good conversation but it needs a lot of preparation
14:33:10 <Ralph> ... we should be talking with the people in BISG and other places first and then come back to TPAC with the information we have gathered
14:33:33 <Ralph> Liisa: there's a publishing community conversation to have
14:33:53 <Ralph> ... what does it mean to say "everything needs to be backward compatible"? Does this mean you won't touch your catalog
14:34:04 <Ralph> ... there's a W3C conversation on scope of charter
14:34:09 <ivan> q+
14:34:17 <Ralph> ... some ideas are shut down saying "we're not chartered for that"
14:34:21 <George> q+
14:34:32 <Ralph> ... we need to culturally start to put our concerns aside for a moment
14:34:42 <Ralph> Avneesh: this gets into strategic side of things
14:34:51 <Ralph> ... these discussions are happening in the WG
14:35:02 <Ralph> ... if the discussions happen in the CG they won't be shut down
14:35:11 <liisamk> ack ivan
14:35:12 <Ralph> ... and then we can float a new charter for EPUB work
14:35:19 <Ralph> Ivan: "shut down" is a little bit strong
14:35:37 <Ralph> ... we have the possibility to recharter the WG at any time if we decide new things we want to do in EPUB
14:35:47 <Ralph> ... we should not consider this an absolute no
14:35:58 <Ralph> ... whether the discussion happens in the WG or CG is a bit immaterial
14:36:26 <Ralph> ... if a TF says there is support for something and the publishers and manufacturers show support we can propose to recharter; I would not be concerned about that
14:36:27 <tzviya> ack ge
14:36:38 <tzviya> q+ bill
14:36:53 <Ralph> George: Avneesh and Ivan said most of what I'm thinking
14:37:11 <Ralph> ... if there were to be a TF in the CG to talk about this that would help to revitalize things
14:37:20 <Ralph> ... I suggest that TF lead be one of the co-chairs of the CG
14:37:21 <tzviya> q+
14:37:50 <Ralph> ... I also think the word "shut down" is a bit too strong but [rechartering] seems to be such a heavy lift that it was scaring people
14:38:01 <Ralph> ... the question of backward compatibility needs to be address right at the start
14:38:17 <tzviya> ack bi
14:38:24 <Ralph> ... if there is negativity from the industry on doing things that are not backward compatible we would have our hands tied too much
14:38:36 <Ralph> Bill: one of the constraints is that the conversation ends up being about EPUB
14:38:46 <Ralph> ... most people think EPUB is pretty much done
14:39:01 <Ralph> ... but there's a lot that still needs to be done for the Web
14:39:15 <Ralph> ... so maybe we don't rock the boat on EPUB but discuss what else needs to be done
14:39:26 <liisamk> q+
14:39:27 <George> q+
14:39:37 <Ralph> ... protection from deep fakes and other things are coming to the fore in discussion; these don't have much to do with EPUB
14:39:49 <tzviya> ack me
14:39:56 <Ralph> ... except for university press most scholarly publishing has little to do with EPUB
14:40:17 <Ralph> Tzviya: in the issue that Wendy cited Brady commented on our hands being tied
14:40:24 <Ralph> ... you might want to take a look at that
14:41:14 <Ralph> ... EPUB will have to evolve at some point; we'll have to figure out how
14:41:21 <tzviya> ack liisamk
14:41:32 <Ralph> ... backward compatibility is one goal but it has to evolve as the world evolves
14:41:45 <Ralph> Bill: I don't think we should stop evolving EPUB if there are good ways to evolve it
14:42:08 <Ralph> ... but there are a lot of people involved in publishing at large that are interested in issues that are not EPUB issues
14:42:38 <Ralph> Liisa: I don't think EPUB is done.  I do think people have given up to some extent because implementations are not as good as they should be
14:42:50 <tzviya> ack George
14:42:52 <ivan> q+
14:42:54 <Ralph> ... Brady would be a good person to be involved in such a TF
14:43:19 <Ralph> George: in education we have EPUB going well.  We also have LMS, QTI, and integration of publisher content in the LMS
14:43:30 <Ralph> ... it might be EPUB, it might be modules the publisher is using
14:43:53 <Ralph> ... I'd love to see us do a better job of integrating that accessible content in HTML and EPUB
14:43:54 <tzviya> q+ to ask about working with 1EdTech
14:44:05 <Ralph> ... we do EPUB testing but we haven't gotten into LMS testing
14:44:21 <Ralph> ... I see that as a needed area of work
14:44:27 <Ralph> ... this is pure HTML
14:44:30 <tzviya> q+ bill
14:44:33 <tzviya> ack ivan
14:44:50 <Ralph> Ivan: Liisa's comment about reading systems makes me think
14:45:10 <Ralph> ... W3C writes specifications; I wonder if we can somehow improve the situation with RS problems
14:45:20 <Ralph> ... can we push the implementers to be more standards-compliant?
14:45:40 <Ralph> ... is there anything we are in a position to do to improve the situation?
14:45:46 <tzviya> ack tz
14:45:46 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask about working with 1EdTech
14:45:47 <Ralph> Liisa: embarass
14:46:07 <Ralph> Tzviya: the IDPF had a pretty good working relationship with IMSGLobal
14:46:26 <Ralph> ... the new organization might be good to work with
14:46:35 <Ralph> George: Markus was there, left, and may be back
14:47:09 <Ralph> ... DAISY is able to participate
14:47:26 <Ralph> ... and Rick is on their board
14:47:38 <AvneeshSingh> q+
14:47:56 <Ralph> Tzviya: if we want to work on QTI I think we'd want to work with them
14:48:02 <tzviya> a/IMSGLobal/1EdTech formerly IMS Global
14:48:07 <tzviya> ack bi
14:48:20 <Ralph> Bill: Rick is the right person to talk with about 1EdTech
14:49:10 <tzviya> ack AvneeshSingh
14:49:10 <Ralph> ... and getting Norton involved would be advantageous
14:49:24 <Ralph> Avneesh: we discuss a lot of ideas, some get traction and some don't
14:49:35 <Ralph> ... why not focus on getting an incubation TF going?
14:49:59 <Ralph> ... when an idea is raised that can't be done under the current WG charter, direct the conversation to an incubation TF
14:50:17 <Ralph> Tzviya: I agree but every time we raise this the question is "who will lead the TF?"
14:50:31 <Ralph> ... I need suggestions for leaders of the CG
14:50:36 <Ralph> s/TF?/CG?/
14:51:17 <shiestyle> q+
14:51:34 <tzviya> ack shiestyle
14:51:57 <Ralph> Shinya: regarding the incubation TF, is there a concrete proposal or discussion that should be discussed with the WG?
14:52:07 <Ralph> ... I don't recall that we shut down any ideas or proposals
14:52:22 <Ralph> ... if there are concrete proposals we should discuss possible charter changes
14:52:24 <AvneeshSingh> q+
14:52:28 <Ralph> ... I haven't seen any concrete proposals
14:52:40 <Ralph> Tzviya: concrete proposal for what?
14:52:54 <Ralph> Shinya: new features, incubation TF
14:52:59 <tzviya> ack AvneeshSingh
14:53:24 <ivan> q+
14:53:29 <Ralph> Avneesh: when there are concrete proposals and its clear there is support then it is appropriate to propose charter updates
14:53:34 <tzviya> ack ivan
14:53:53 <Ralph> ... the purpose of the Incubation TF is to discuss ideas [before they are concrete]
14:54:10 <Ralph> Ivan: the WG has had lots of discussion on webtunes
14:54:29 <wolfgang> s/webtunes/webtoons/
14:54:31 <Ralph> ... the reason for a TF is that the WG only meets once a month
14:54:55 <Ralph> ... it's difficult to sustain discussion with only one meeting every four weeks
14:55:05 <Ralph> ... a TF can meet more often and have more concentrated work
14:55:23 <Ralph> ... the webtoons discussion has been going on for a while but is evolving very slowly
14:55:40 <Ralph> ... regardless of whether the webtoons discussion leads to rechartering or not
14:55:40 <tzviya> q?
14:55:57 <tzviya> ack Ralph
14:56:32 <Ralph> Ralph: has the WG requested a large enough space at TPAC for a "workshop"-sized meeting?
14:56:49 <Ralph> Tzviya: yes: Wendy and I requested space for 20-25 people, which should be sufficient
14:56:54 <Ralph> [adjourned]
14:56:57 <Ralph> zakim, end meeting
14:56:58 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Tzviya, Daihei, AvneeshSingh, shiestyle, liisamk, wendyreid, ivan, wolfgang, George, Graham, Ralph, Cristina, Bill
14:57:00 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
14:57:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/14-pbgsc-minutes.html Zakim
14:57:04 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
14:57:07 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbgsc
14:57:20 <Ralph> rrsagent, please make record public'
14:57:23 <Ralph> rrsagent, please make record public
15:00:15 <Ralph> s/entitites/entities
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17:22:39 <Ralph> rrsagent, please draft minutes
17:22:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/14-pbgsc-minutes.html Ralph
17:23:10 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
17:23:10 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2024/06/14-pbgsc-actions.rdf :
17:23:10 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Liisa contact W3C Comm [1]
17:23:10 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/06/14-pbgsc-irc#T14-15-43