15:57:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
15:57:33 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/06/13-rdf-star-irc
15:57:34 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-star
15:57:52 <TallTed> meeting: RDF-star WG biweekly meeting
15:58:06 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:58:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/13-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:58:11 <TallTed> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:58:56 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/06/07-rdf-star-minutes.html
15:58:56 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/06/14-rdf-star-minutes.html
15:59:16 <tl> tl has joined #rdf-star
15:59:21 <TallTed> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/0a6aa6e3-635c-42c2-baba-938c76b6ef01/20240613T120000/
15:59:21 <agendabot> clear agenda
15:59:21 <agendabot> agenda+ Approval of minutes from the last two meetings: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2024/05/23-rdf-star-minutes.html , -> 2 https://www.w3.org/2024/06/06-rdf-star-minutes.html
15:59:21 <agendabot> agenda+ Re-chartering -> 3 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg-charter/pull/57
15:59:22 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg-charter/pull/57 -> MERGED Pull Request 57 Charter extension 2024-03 (by pchampin)
15:59:22 <agendabot> agenda+ Proposal for next week's discussion
15:59:23 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of open actions, available at -> 4 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3
15:59:26 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of pull requests, available at -> 5 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4
15:59:29 <agendabot> agenda+ Issue Triage, available at -> 6 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/5
15:59:31 <agendabot> agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting
16:00:29 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
16:00:33 <rubensworks> present+
16:00:34 <TallTed> present+ TallTed, ktk, tl, niklasl, rubensworks
16:00:44 <gtw> present+
16:00:47 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-star
16:00:56 <ktk> regrets: andys, fsasaki, enrico, olaf
16:00:57 <pfps> present+
16:00:58 <ktk> p+
16:01:27 <eBrermer> eBrermer has joined #rdf-star
16:01:28 <TallTed> s/p+//
16:01:34 <eBrermer> present+
16:01:37 <niklasl> niklasl has joined #rdf-star
16:01:43 <gkellogg> present+
16:01:54 <TallTed> present+ pchampin, ora
16:02:11 <TallTed> present+ Souri
16:02:14 <tl> present+
16:02:20 <TallTed> zakim, who's here?
16:02:20 <Zakim> Present: rubensworks, TallTed, ktk, tl, niklasl, gtw, pfps, eBrermer, gkellogg, pchampin, ora, Souri
16:02:21 <rubensworks> scribe+
16:02:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see niklasl, eBrermer, pfps, gkellogg, tl, Zakim, RRSAgent, rubensworks, TallTed, rhiaro, Tpt, ktk, driib5, agendabot, csarven, gb, pchampin, gtw
16:02:23 <niklasl> present+
16:02:39 <ora> ora has joined #rdf-star
16:02:50 <ora> present+
16:02:55 <ora> chair: ora
16:03:32 <gkellogg> zakim, draft minutes
16:03:32 <Zakim> I don't understand 'draft minutes', gkellogg
16:03:38 <ktk> Zakim, open item 1
16:03:38 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Approval of minutes from the last two meetings: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2024/05/23-rdf-star-minutes.html , -> 2 https://www.w3.org/2024/06/06-rdf-star-minutes.html --
16:03:38 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:03:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/13-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:03:47 <Zakim> ... taken up [from agendabot]
16:03:47 <gkellogg> zakim, generate minutes
16:03:47 <Zakim> I don't understand 'generate minutes', gkellogg
16:03:49 <doerthe> doerthe has joined #rdf-star
16:04:04 <doerthe> present+
16:04:52 <Tpt> present+
16:04:57 <rubensworks> ora: Any concerns about the last minutes?
16:05:14 <ora> PROPOSAL: Accept 2024-05-23 minutes
16:05:19 <ora> +1
16:05:19 <ktk> +1
16:05:21 <TallTed> +1
16:05:25 <eBrermer> +1
16:05:26 <niklasl> +1
16:05:30 <pfps> +1
16:05:31 <rubensworks> +1
16:05:32 <gtw> +1
16:05:38 <gkellogg> +1
16:05:45 <tl> +1
16:05:51 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-star
16:05:52 <pchampin> +1
16:05:52 <doerthe> +1
16:05:55 <Souri> present+
16:05:58 <Souri> +1
16:06:03 <ora> RESOLVED: Accept 2024-05-23 minutes
16:06:22 <ora> PROPOSAL: Accept 2024-06-06 minutes
16:06:26 <ora> 0
16:06:26 <ktk> +1
16:06:27 <gtw> +1
16:06:30 <gkellogg> +1
16:06:34 <niklasl> +1
16:06:35 <rubensworks> +1
16:06:38 <tl> +1
16:06:43 <pchampin> +1
16:06:44 <eBrermer> +1
16:06:48 <TallTed> +1
16:07:09 <doerthe> +1
16:07:12 <ora> RESOLVED: Accept 2024-06-06 minutes
16:07:20 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:07:20 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Re-chartering -> 3 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg-charter/pull/57 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:07:21 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg-charter/pull/57 -> MERGED Pull Request 57 Charter extension 2024-03 (by pchampin)
16:08:34 <rubensworks> pchampin: A new PR was pushed about possible change of name. Changing name mid-charter is unusual, so I rephrased to to say that we may change the name in the next charter.
16:09:05 <rubensworks> ... Other than that, it should be ready to go.
16:09:24 <rubensworks> ora: What do we need to do next?
16:09:50 <ktk> q+
16:10:03 <rubensworks> pchampin: We need to go to the strategy team and to say what we want to submit. Already talked to them, so there should be no pushback. This will be a regular AC vote.
16:10:07 <ora> ack ktk
16:10:19 <rubensworks> ktk: Is a formal resolution needed in this group?
16:10:42 <rubensworks> pchampin: Let's make a resolution to be on the safe side.
16:11:12 <ora> PROPOSAL: Authorize pchampin to take the new charter proposal to the W3C strategy team
16:11:15 <ora> +1
16:11:15 <rubensworks> +1
16:11:17 <gkellogg> +1
16:11:20 <eBrermer> +1
16:11:21 <pchampin> +1
16:11:22 <Souri> +1
16:11:22 <gtw> +1
16:11:22 <TallTed> +1
16:11:24 <ktk> +1
16:11:24 <niklasl> +1
16:11:31 <tl> +1
16:11:41 <ora> RESOLVED: Authorize pchampin to take the new charter proposal to the W3C strategy team
16:11:43 <Tpt> +1
16:11:45 <pfps> +1
16:11:56 <tl> q+ to ask for Ora's trip report from Basel, especially the discussion with Hannah Bast (developer of the Qlever triple store) that Adrian mentioned last week
16:12:12 <ora> ack tl
16:12:13 <Zakim> tl, you wanted to ask for Ora's trip report from Basel, especially the discussion with Hannah Bast (developer of the Qlever triple store) that Adrian mentioned last week
16:12:45 <rubensworks> tl: I'm interested in the difficulties on RDF-star in Qlever.
16:13:00 <rubensworks> ora: I didn't get the feeling they thought about it much.
16:13:17 <rubensworks> ... They don't support SPARQL 1.1 fully yet either.
16:13:58 <rubensworks> tl: Maybe it's not important here.
16:14:28 <rubensworks> ora: I explained to her what we are doing in the group atm.
16:14:58 <rubensworks> ... They are working through a bunch of stuff still in their SPARQL impl.
16:15:13 <rubensworks> ... I will email her.
16:15:30 <rubensworks> ... I was impressed with the performance of that system.
16:15:51 <rubensworks> ... They are orders of magnitude faster.
16:16:17 <rubensworks> ... There are no special tricks in the implementation. Just good understanding of the algorithms and clean code.
16:17:03 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:17:03 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Proposal for next week's discussion -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:17:41 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:17:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/13-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
16:17:55 <rubensworks> ora: [] is working on a new proposal which simplifies things.
16:18:06 <ktk> s/[]/enrico/
16:18:18 <rubensworks> ... I'm sure he will send it before next week's meeting.
16:18:36 <rubensworks> ... Next week's topic should probably be about that.
16:18:42 <pchampin> q+
16:18:47 <pfps> q+
16:18:49 <ora> ack pchampin
16:19:05 <rubensworks> pchampin: Is this a new proposal next to the baseline?
16:19:15 <ora> ack pfps
16:19:32 <pchampin> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/139681/2024-07-baseline/results
16:19:41 <rubensworks> pchampin: The results of the poll can be found at this link.
16:19:53 <rubensworks> ... This was to ask about the support for the baseline proposal.
16:20:33 <rubensworks> ora: We should give him the opportunity to explain his proposal.
16:20:45 <rubensworks> pfps: I thought we were at the point of voting, not to look at new things.
16:20:51 <ktk> q+
16:20:52 <rubensworks> ora: I don't disagree.
16:20:52 <pfps> q+
16:21:08 <rubensworks> pfps: We did vote.
16:21:12 <ora> ack pfps
16:22:17 <rubensworks> TallTed: This is not a baseline, should be something we should grow from.
16:22:25 <rubensworks> ora: What do you propose?
16:22:31 <pfps> q-
16:22:48 <rubensworks> TallTed: Given that this is a strawpoll, this is not a binding decision, that decisions be clearly communicated.
16:22:52 <tl> q+
16:23:03 <gtw> q+
16:23:05 <rubensworks> ... The strawpoll does not accomplish the goal.
16:23:10 <ora> ack ktk
16:23:15 <rubensworks> ktk: I disagree.
16:24:00 <rubensworks> ... We should set on something that is the foundation. Further proposals should be framed on that proposal.
16:24:41 <rubensworks> ora: Could we resolve something next week?
16:24:46 <gtw> q-
16:24:53 <TallTed> q+
16:24:59 <rubensworks> ktk: I don't know.
16:25:10 <ora> ack tl
16:25:24 <rubensworks> tl: I don't understand the need for a strawpoll at all.
16:25:59 <niklasl> q+
16:26:11 <ora> ack TallTed
16:26:32 <TallTed> more metamodelling crap   and
16:26:32 <TallTed> more axiomatic triples crap
16:26:47 <rubensworks> TallTed: The above is not part of a baseline.
16:26:48 <TallTed> all the RDF 1.1 metamodelling crap   and
16:26:48 <TallTed> all the RDF 1.1 axiomatic triples crap
16:27:34 <rubensworks> ... Major changes must be made to this draft.
16:27:48 <rubensworks> ... I don't see how it could be made in a shape that we can vote on next week.
16:27:48 <gtw> q+
16:28:36 <rubensworks> ... Previous proposals were too open-ended, leading to incompat, just like this proposal.
16:28:44 <rubensworks> ... Feels like we're starting over.
16:28:53 <ora> ack niklasl
16:29:25 <rubensworks> niklasl: There is frustration that we're not progressing. I want to talk about the reqs and use cases.
16:29:29 <niklasl> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star/2024Jun/0000.html
16:30:00 <pfps> My bad - I should realize the difference between the two mailing lists.
16:30:32 <rubensworks> niklasl: I abstained from voting, because I agree that we need something clearer to vote on.
16:31:02 <rubensworks> ... Opacity came back, and no one really wanted that.
16:32:11 <rubensworks> ... I tried to show the way I see where we're at in my reply to the mail.
16:33:19 <rubensworks> ... I agree we need to talk about something concrete.
16:33:43 <rubensworks> ora: The word "baseline" is probably not the right one.
16:33:45 <ora> ack gtw
16:34:01 <rubensworks> gtw: I agree with that. We're getting too hung up on the word "baseline".
16:34:13 <rubensworks> ... The instructions were clear on the strawpoll.
16:34:45 <rubensworks> ... Previous proposals were hard to compare because there was nothing clear to compare to.
16:34:46 <gkellogg> +1 to gtw
16:34:59 <ora> q+
16:35:01 <rubensworks> ... We need something to compare to as we move forward.
16:35:02 <ora> ack ora
16:35:13 <rubensworks> ora: This ability to compare is very important.
16:35:25 <rubensworks> ... This is still difficult for me.
16:35:57 <rubensworks> ... And how to compare this to the broader group of stakeholders.
16:36:15 <Souri> "benchmark" (instead of "baseline") for comparison whenever something new is proposed
16:36:23 <tl> q+
16:36:24 <rubensworks> ... I propose next week we discuss the strawpoll results, to see if we agree on this "baseline".
16:36:29 <ora> ack tl
16:36:39 <rubensworks> tl: I want to understand what the minimal set is.
16:36:56 <rubensworks> ... E.g. RDF-star + occurrences.
16:37:11 <ktk> q+
16:37:21 <pfps> q+
16:37:27 <ora> ack ktk
16:37:52 <rubensworks> ktk: What is the alternative if you disagree with the baseline?
16:37:54 <ora> ack pfps
16:38:28 <rubensworks> pfps: My strawpoll vote had a proposal for another baseline. It's a subset of the page that we were voting on without the crap.
16:39:00 <rubensworks> ... We had use cases, but didn't spend time discussing them.
16:39:31 <rubensworks> ... If we evolve things in RDF 1.2, we should have approved use cases for them.
16:39:45 <rubensworks> TallTed: We should have approved requirements that come out of the approved use cases.
16:39:59 <rubensworks> ... So we can compare and test which proposals meet the requirements.
16:40:07 <pchampin> +1
16:40:08 <rubensworks> ... I would like us to get to this.
16:40:22 <niklasl> q+
16:40:29 <ora> ack niklasl
16:40:42 <rubensworks> niklasl: I agree. I want to help with the use cases.
16:41:07 <tl> s/RDF-star + occurrences./RDF* (RDR) + occurrences./
16:41:57 <Souri6> Souri6 has joined #rdf-star
16:42:03 <Souri6> present+
16:43:21 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-star
16:43:27 <Souri> present+
16:43:39 <ora> PROPOSAL: Next week: validating the baseline against use cases
16:43:45 <ora> +1
16:43:46 <gkellogg> +1
16:43:49 <gtw> +1
16:43:50 <tl> +1
16:43:50 <ktk> +1
16:43:51 <eBrermer> +1
16:43:52 <rubensworks> +1
16:43:53 <pchampin> +1
16:43:54 <niklasl> +1
16:43:55 <doerthe> +1
16:44:13 <Tpt> +1
16:44:38 <TallTed> +1
16:44:46 <ora> RESOLVED: Next week: validating the baseline against use cases
16:44:53 <rubensworks> ktk: I will add the link to the agenda for next week.
16:45:26 <rubensworks> TallTed: It may be time to move that stuff from the wiki to managed pages.
16:45:40 <rubensworks> ... Treating it like a spec document, with PRs.
16:45:43 <ora> +1 to TallTed's idea
16:45:47 <pchampin> +1
16:45:47 <niklasl> +1
16:45:51 <ktk> +1
16:45:59 <eBrermer> +1
16:46:02 <Souri> +1
16:46:05 <gkellogg> +1 should be a WG Note in ReSpec format.
16:46:19 <doerthe> +1
16:46:33 <rubensworks> gkellogg: You can make respec documents about markdown documents.
16:47:00 <TallTed> +1 WG Note in ReSpec
16:47:02 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:47:02 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Review of open actions, available at -> 4 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:48:07 <rubensworks> pchampin: If we have a new note, we should re-activate the workflows.
16:48:31 <ora> Zakim, next item
16:48:31 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Review of pull requests, available at -> 5 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:48:47 <gkellogg> q+
16:49:10 <ora> ack gkellogg
16:49:18 <rubensworks> gkellogg: There are some trivial PRs on Turtle and TriG.
16:49:34 <pfps> q+
16:49:43 <rubensworks> ... The big one is rdf:JSON.
16:50:02 <rubensworks> ... A note was added about infinite numbers.
16:51:11 <rubensworks> gkellogg: It's a 10-11 month PR atm, so we need to move on.
16:51:57 <pchampin> ack pfps
16:51:59 <ora> ora has joined #rdf-star
16:52:05 <ora> present+
16:52:16 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-star
16:52:17 <rubensworks> pfps: It looks like rdf:JSON may actually be an RDF datatype now. At the expense of being different from other JSON.
16:53:02 <rubensworks> gkellogg: Similar to xml and html literals, those groups saw the need to represent it in RDF. So did the JSON-LD group for JSON.
16:53:36 <rubensworks> ... We removed canonicalization from it.
16:54:36 <rubensworks> pfps: The JSON-LD people should look at it.
16:55:00 <rubensworks> gkellogg: The expectation from the JSON-LD group would be that the RDF WG would include it.
16:55:07 <TallTed> conveniently, gkellogg is a JSON-LD people. As am I.
16:55:48 <TallTed> might be worth a "call for objections from JSON-LD CG/WG"
16:55:52 <ktk> q+
16:56:27 <rubensworks> pfps: Having this as a PR is no different than a draft. They are constantly changing.
16:56:36 <rubensworks> ... The JSON-LD WG should approve it before it gets in.
16:56:54 <rubensworks> ... We have a fair cross-representation between these 2 groups.
16:56:55 <ora> ack ktk
16:57:22 <niklasl> q+
16:57:31 <rubensworks> ktk: Can we live with merging, and asking for feedback from the JSON-LD WG?
16:57:43 <ora> ack niklasl
16:57:59 <rubensworks> niklasl: I think it would be good to merge now.
16:58:29 <pchampin> @pfps, by merging it, we generate a snapshot of the WD, so it is still more stable than a PR
16:58:35 <rubensworks> ora: I like the idea to merge now, and solicit feedback. And if needed, create another PR.
16:58:56 <rubensworks> ora: Anyone disagree?
16:59:14 <TallTed> we can ask JSON-LD people to make substantive change requests -- i.e., PRs and/or issues -- making clear their objection
16:59:40 <rubensworks> pchampin: Peter needs to change his review before it can be merged.
16:59:50 <ktk> pfps: the PR is blocked by you, you would have to unblock
16:59:59 <ktk> pfps: we didn't hear you anymore on zoom
17:00:04 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:00:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/13-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
17:00:27 <TallTed> s/pfps: the/pfps -- the/
17:00:27 <TallTed> s/pfps: we/pfps -- we/
17:00:32 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:00:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/13-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:22:50 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
17:23:01 <pchampin> zakim, end meeting
17:23:01 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been rubensworks, TallTed, ktk, tl, niklasl, gtw, pfps, eBrermer, gkellogg, pchampin, ora, Souri, doerthe, Tpt
17:23:03 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:23:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/13-rdf-star-minutes.html Zakim
17:23:10 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, pchampin; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:23:11 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdf-star
17:23:22 <pchampin> RRSAgent, bye
17:23:22 <RRSAgent> I see no action items