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14:47:46 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/06/13-pcg-a11y-irc
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14:47:55 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, this will be pcg-a11y
14:47:55 <Zakim> ok, AvneeshSingh
14:48:14 <AvneeshSingh> chair: AvneeshSingh
14:48:18 <AvneeshSingh> present+
14:49:21 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Issue #280: Do we want to display Reason why the publication does not claim to meet the standards
14:49:38 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Further updates to the principles document.
14:49:55 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Review of further progress in techniques documents.
14:50:46 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, remove agendum [2]
14:50:46 <Zakim> I don't understand 'remove agendum [2]', AvneeshSingh
14:51:07 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, delete agenda 2
14:51:07 <Zakim> agendum 2, Further updates to the principles document., dropped
14:51:54 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Further updates to the principles document.
14:52:04 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Any other business
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14:59:22 <gpellegrino> present+
15:01:21 <ChrisOliverOttawa> present+
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15:01:52 <wendyreid> present+
15:03:28 <gpellegrino> scribe+
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15:03:42 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:03:43 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Issue #280: Do we want to display Reason why the publication does not claim to meet the standards -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
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15:03:49 <CharlesL> present+
15:03:52 <gautierchomel> present+
15:04:03 <AvneeshSingh> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues/280
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15:06:21 <Simon_Mellins> present+
15:06:57 <Madeleine> present+
15:08:14 <CharlesL> q+
15:09:19 <Simon_Mellins> Testing
15:09:43 <gpellegrino> test
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15:10:14 <Hadrien> present+
15:10:16 <gpellegrino> test
15:10:21 <Simon_Mellins> present+
15:10:46 <Simon_Mellins> Should it be showing 'chan-2' in the URL string like this?
15:10:59 <gpellegrino> q+
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15:11:23 <AvneeshSingh> ack charl
15:11:24 <gautierchomel> scribe+
15:11:40 <gautierchomel> (gautier resumed the issue https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues/280)
15:13:17 <gautierchomel> CharlesL: I understand the point of not exposing exemptions. I agree to keep things straight forward with conformity yes or no.
15:13:28 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:14:24 <MiiaK> q+
15:14:43 <gautierchomel> gpellegrino: The EAA aims to inform the end user of the accessibility of the product / service. Transparency is important to be sure we are informing the user.
15:15:57 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:16:10 <gautierchomel> gpellegrino: I agree to not say why it is not accessible but I see a use case related to the end user raising requests to the authority in charge of survey. So may be we can find a friendly way to inform.
15:16:26 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:16:30 <gautierchomel> gpellegrino: there is a difference between a book checked and one not checked.
15:16:55 <gpellegrino> q+
15:17:28 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:17:51 <gautierchomel> MiiaK: discussing with finnish publishers, they seem to expect this exemption to be displayed to avoid complains or unncessary complains. Especially disproportionate burden.
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15:17:52 <gautierchomel> q+
15:18:15 <rickj> apologies for the late join
15:18:27 <Simon_Mellins> q+
15:18:34 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:19:05 <CharlesL> scribe+
15:19:08 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:19:09 <gautierchomel> gpellegrino: this are guidelines, implementers can decide to twist around our recomandations. Also publishers have hands on theyre metadata.
15:19:13 <rickj> q+
15:20:01 <CharlesL> gautierchomel: 2 use cases. country says no I don't have means to control your metadata I don't want people reaching out, want it to be preinformed.  so they can make legislation regarding that.
15:20:14 <rickj> q-
15:20:21 <CharlesL> ... the a11y addendum what they want to tell the end users.
15:21:15 <CharlesL> ... recommending to display these will affect what the publishers put into their books/feeds.
15:21:18 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:22:17 <gautierchomel> Simon_Mellins: I don't see a reason to not display it, I think it's usefull for the user and the publisher.
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15:23:33 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:23:33 <gautierchomel> AvneeshSingh: we could find a middle part, soften the recomandation and provide a note that the decision may depend on the market you are serving.
15:24:30 <gpellegrino> q+
15:24:38 <gautierchomel> GeorgeK: is there a way to diferenciate conformance of thise particular items? Can we determine a publisher choice?
15:24:42 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:25:07 <gautierchomel> gpellegrino: on ONIX, there is no way to saying if the metadata is for BtoB or to be displayed.
15:25:14 <gautierchomel> q+
15:25:29 <wendyreid> q+
15:26:54 <rickj> we have 32,190 titles that make a WCAG conformance claim
15:27:06 <CharlesL> gautierchomel:
15:27:16 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:27:31 <CharlesL> ... there is a confusion between conformity and accessibility.
15:28:04 <CharlesL> ... wcag-aa compliant but does not have DisplayTransformability.  even if it is AA compliant it doesn't work for me.
15:28:12 <gpellegrino> q+
15:28:47 <CharlesL> ... EPUB made of text except for a cover / logo. but I am a micro enterprise I don't want to check things because I have 1000 books, I want to say I don't know i haven't checked
15:29:10 <CharlesL> ... but it doesn't mean its not accessible just that I haven't made the accessibility conformance testing needed.
15:29:17 <rickj> q+
15:29:55 <CharlesL> ... you may have a file that may not conform to the a11y standard but include a11y features.
15:30:22 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: YOu may not put in the conformance statement but do put in other a11y features.
15:30:38 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:31:15 <gpellegrino> q-
15:31:27 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: in schema unknown a11y features you don't know what features are present in the book. you don't know it is conforms or not.
15:31:27 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:33:20 <CharlesL> wendyreid: is this information useful is what it comes down to.  Retailers need to know this information but maybe not for the user will find useful or valuable.
15:33:25 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: there is a way in schema and ONIX to inform about the exemption. As a retailer I can see it and i'll trust it. For the user, is it of use? Few users understand conformity. As a reader, do I really care that the publisher is a micro enterprise? D I even understand what this means? I don't think it is of interest for the end user.
15:35:08 <gautierchomel> GeorgeK: in the principles, we can put a note in the details area that says when the publisher claims exemption, you may choose to display it or not. And we should change the wording unknown accessibility into unknown conformance.
15:36:07 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:36:30 <gpellegrino> q+
15:36:54 <gautierchomel> rickj: I get unconfortable to saying something is or is not accessible. I don't want to make a judgement, I prefer to stick with what the publishers claims or not.
15:37:09 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:37:19 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:37:34 <gautierchomel> q+
15:38:06 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:38:47 <CharlesL> gautierchomel: is it the publisher is claiming is not meeting conformance, but still have some accessibility.  There might be chances to be accessible.
15:38:56 <gpellegrino> q+
15:39:10 <gpellegrino> q-
15:39:24 <CharlesL> ... 09 code is not about conformity but is more about that the book may have some a11y issues.
15:40:00 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:40:00 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Review of further progress in techniques documents. -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
15:40:07 <gautierchomel> AvneeshSingh: we'll make a proposal for the next editor call.
15:40:22 <AvneeshSingh> https://w3c.github.io/publ-a11y/UX-Guide-Metadata/draft/techniques/onix-metadata/index.html
15:41:07 <gautierchomel> gpellegrino: we are working on conformance, in a wait state since we have to fix the principles (see previous discussion)
15:42:46 <gautierchomel> gpellegrino: one other point is additional accessibility information. Chris opened numerous github issues to check which are already uqed, and for each not used, he created an issue with proposal to ignore it or to add it to one or another technic or to put it in the Additioonal accessibility information section.
15:43:33 <gpellegrino> q+
15:44:09 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:44:51 <AvneeshSingh> https://w3c.github.io/publ-a11y/UX-Guide-Metadata/draft/techniques/epub-metadata/index.html
15:47:05 <gautierchomel> CharlesL: we are ready to merge EPUB techniques related to accessibility summary. Like for ONIX, we are waiting this discussion about conformity to be fixed so we can follow up.
15:47:20 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:47:42 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:47:42 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Further updates to the principles document. -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
15:47:58 <AvneeshSingh> https://w3c.github.io/publ-a11y/UX-Guide-Metadata/draft/principles/?updated
15:48:30 <gautierchomel> GeorgeK: I created an intriduction and made the abstarct more aligned with the specifications. Abstract is smaller now, like an abstract has to be.
15:52:49 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make minutes
15:52:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/13-pcg-a11y-minutes.html AvneeshSingh
15:53:02 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make logs public
15:54:28 <AvneeshSingh> zakim bye
15:54:33 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, leave
15:54:33 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been AvneeshSingh, gpellegrino, ChrisOliverOttawa, wendyreid, CharlesL, gautierchomel, Simon_Mellins, Madeleine, Hadrien
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