IRC log of matf on 2024-06-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:02:20 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #matf

13:02:25 [RRSAgent]

logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/06/12-matf-irc

13:02:25 [Zakim]

RRSAgent, make logs Public

13:02:26 [Zakim]

please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ

13:02:29 [Carol]

present +

13:02:36 [JJ]

Zakim, this is MATF June 12, 2024

13:02:36 [Zakim]

got it, JJ

13:02:49 [JJ]

Zakim, list participants

13:02:49 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been JJ, RacheleD, Carol, AA, julianmka, Joe_Humbert, Mick, Devanshu, quintinb, Carolina, Karla, present, hdv, Double_a, audrey, Jamers, Jamie,

13:02:53 [Zakim]

... AlainVagner, Aashutosh, Gleidson

13:03:56 [Karla]

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13:04:00 [JJ]

Zakim, end meeting

13:04:00 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been JJ, RacheleD, Carol, AA, julianmka, Joe_Humbert, Mick, Devanshu, quintinb, Carolina, Karla, present, hdv, Double_a, audrey, Jamers, Jamie,

13:04:03 [Zakim]

... AlainVagner, Aashutosh, Gleidson

13:04:03 [Zakim]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

13:04:04 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/12-matf-minutes.html Zakim

13:04:11 [Zakim]

I am happy to have been of service, JJ; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye

13:04:11 [Zakim]

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13:04:37 [Detlev]

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Zakim has joined #matf

13:04:56 [Detlev]

present+

13:04:58 [JJ]

Zakim, start meeting

13:04:58 [Zakim]

RRSAgent, make logs Public

13:05:00 [Zakim]

please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ

13:05:06 [Detlev]

present+

13:05:13 [JJ]

Zakim, this is MATF June 12, 2024

13:05:13 [Zakim]

got it, JJ

13:05:20 [JJ]

Zakim, list participants

13:05:20 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been Detlev

13:05:23 [audrey]

present+

13:05:29 [AlainVagner]

present+

13:05:32 [RacheleD]

present+

13:05:36 [Karla]

present+

13:06:13 [JJ]

regrets+ Julian

13:06:43 [Detlev]

scribe: Detlev

13:07:16 [JJ]

agenda+ Github issues

13:07:27 [JJ]

agenda+ 2.4.5 Multiple Ways

13:07:32 [JJ]

agenda+ 3.1.1 Language of Page

13:07:40 [JJ]

agenda+ 3.1.2 Language of Parts

13:07:54 [Mick]

Mick has joined #MATF

13:08:04 [JJ]

move to next agendum

13:08:04 [Zakim]

agendum 1 -- Github issues -- taken up [from JJ]

13:08:21 [Mick]

present+

13:08:26 [Devanshu]

Devanshu has joined #matf

13:08:36 [Detlev]

Github issues discussed last week to cooperate

13:08:46 [Devanshu]

present+

13:09:14 [Detlev]

JJ: new comments: 1.4.4 Resize text new issue

13:09:33 [JJ]

SC 1.4.4 issue: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/3

13:11:55 [Detlev]

Jamie: elaborating on comment to Github issue on 1.4.4

13:12:04 [Detlev]

(audio problems)

13:14:37 [Detlev]

victoria: it should be a violation if there is an option to increase text size in the OS

13:15:07 [Detlev]

...agree that pinch to zoom satisfies 1.4.4 but it may not wor for all...

13:16:01 [JJ]

Detlev: explaining German ways of testing 1.4.4

13:17:39 [AlainVagner]

EN 301 549 criterion 11.7 "User preferences": https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_en/301500_301599/301549/03.02.01_60/en_301549v030201p.pdf#page=82

13:18:41 [Detlev]

Detlev explains line of though linking 1.4.4 ans 11.7 (EN 301 549)

13:18:53 [Detlev]

JJ add to Github issue, please

13:18:56 [JJ]

SC 1.4.13 - https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/6#issuecomment-2148018505

13:19:30 [JJ]

SC 2.1.1 - https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/12#issuecomment-2162860771

13:19:42 [JJ]

SC 1.3.5 - https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/2#issuecomment-2162929407

13:19:54 [Detlev]

JJ going through new comments to these SCs

13:20:15 [JJ]

Definition of sets - https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/11#issuecomment-2158852646

13:20:32 [Detlev]

move to next agendum

13:20:32 [Zakim]

agendum 2 -- 2.4.5 Multiple Ways -- taken up [from JJ]

13:21:51 [JJ]

https://w3c.github.io/wcag2ict/#multiple-ways

13:22:22 [Jamie]

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13:22:29 [Jamie]

present+

13:22:48 [Detlev]

if you have comments on that put yourself on queue with p+

13:22:53 [Detlev]

q+

13:23:13 [Detlev]

q-

13:24:30 [Detlev]

in an app we are normally dealing with processes / flows

13:25:04 [Detlev]

JJ: discussing differences between web and app - does 2.4.5 really aplly to mobile apps

13:25:25 [AlainVagner]

q+

13:25:28 [Detlev]

JJ: is that desirable that there are multiple ways

13:25:32 [Detlev]

q+

13:25:34 [JJ]

ack AlainVagner

13:26:11 [Detlev]

Alain: when you have navigation but often no additional search function or site map

13:26:27 [Detlev]

...could sometimes be applied to mobile applications

13:26:35 [Detlev]

...it is an exception in the EN

13:26:48 [JJ]

ack Detlev

13:26:52 [Mick]

Section 508 standards for software also list WCAG 2.4.5 as an exception.

13:27:44 [AlainVagner]

q+

13:28:05 [Mick]

Mick has joined #MATF

13:28:11 [Mick]

present+

13:28:12 [Detlev]

explaining why 2.4.5 as well as consistent id and consistent nav are not covered in our BIK test procedure

13:28:23 [Mick]

q+

13:28:36 [Detlev]

JJ: the new ADA has no exception for 2.4.5 for apps

13:28:36 [RacheleD]

q+

13:29:03 [Detlev]

JJ: hinges on what is considered a process in an app

13:29:04 [JJ]

ack RacheleD

13:29:44 [JJ]

ack Mick

13:30:01 [Detlev]

Rachele: Losts of apps have a tab bar - they are nto discrete entities but pare of a whole - so probably does not apply

13:30:23 [Jamie]

q+

13:30:30 [Detlev]

Mick: we look at it as a flow - users can find it difficult to get back

13:30:48 [JJ]

ack Jamie

13:31:50 [Detlev]

Jamie: web versions of processes such as a financial transfer - is it considered the same thing in an app and thus a good example for a set of pages / screens?

13:32:16 [Detlev]

Good to identify the processes we see to check whether they are equivalent

13:33:04 [AlainVagner]

q-

13:33:04 [Detlev]

JJ: agree, will help to see examples of processes

13:33:51 [Detlev]

JJ: Tries to set up a meeting with someone from theWCAG2ICT TF to discuss examples of "sets of software"

13:34:08 [Detlev]

JJ: will link into GitHub issues

13:34:19 [JJ]

move to next agendum

13:34:19 [Detlev]

move to next agendum

13:34:22 [Zakim]

agendum 3 -- 3.1.1 Language of Page -- taken up [from JJ]

13:34:22 [Zakim]

agendum 3 was just opened, Detlev

13:35:30 [Detlev]

JJ: in HTML there is lang attrivute - in apps there are localized resources - acknowledged by WCAG2ICT

13:36:00 [Detlev]

JJ (reading note from 3.1.1 in WCAG2ICT doc)

13:36:54 [Detlev]

JJ: iOS has acessibilitylanguage in Android no equivalent - but ways to localize resources and checks of language set in the OS

13:37:39 [Detlev]

JJ: problematic when device is set to English but the app is Dutch - so the screen reader may use the wrong language

13:37:59 [Detlev]

...more thoughs about "language of page" and how to set it in an app?

13:38:14 [JJ]

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13:38:14 [audrey]

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13:38:40 [JJ]

IRC Cheatsheet: https://github.com/w3c/matf/wiki/IRC-Cheatsheet

13:39:01 [Detlev]

zakim, show queue

13:39:01 [Zakim]

I see no one on the speaker queue

13:39:19 [Detlev]

no comments on language

13:39:26 [JJ]

q?

13:40:01 [Karla]

q+

13:40:01 [Detlev]

JJ: sharing appt.org resources for localizing assets

13:40:52 [Detlev]

JJ: setting language for strings

13:41:28 [Detlev]

...iOS has the same via accessibilitySpeechLanguage

13:41:47 [Detlev]

JJ: this is more applying to language of parts

13:41:56 [JJ]

ack Karla

13:42:43 [AlainVagner]

q+

13:42:47 [Detlev]

Karla: A point regarding currencies say match dollar and pesos or length values

13:43:04 [JJ]

ack AlainVagner

13:43:13 [Detlev]

JJ: there is stuff in the EN about user preferences (km / miles)

13:43:55 [Detlev]

Alain: language of parts is usefull because people may use muliple languages on the same app. We should discuss how to test it

13:46:40 [Detlev]

Detlev has joined #matf

13:47:12 [Detlev]

Zakim: make minutes

13:47:17 [JJ]

rrsagent, make minutes

13:47:18 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/12-matf-minutes.html JJ

13:47:53 [Detlev]

zakim, take up next item

13:47:53 [Zakim]

agendum 4 -- 3.1.2 Language of Parts -- taken up [from JJ]

13:48:45 [Detlev]

JJ: (explaining the intent of 3.1.2)

13:48:58 [Detlev]

...software replaces page

13:49:45 [Detlev]

...section 508 this is excluded, also in the EN s301 549 - thi sis surprising because it can be done

13:50:06 [AlainVagner]

q+

13:50:09 [Detlev]

JJ: contentwis it can be challenging but that's the same for web stuff

13:50:13 [JJ]

ack AlainVagner

13:50:45 [AlainVagner]

To apply the related web page requirement for "Language of parts" to software would require the

13:50:45 [AlainVagner]

marking-up of all text in all locations within the software. This would be impossible so an equivalent is

13:50:45 [AlainVagner]

not included in this clause on software requirements

13:50:53 [Detlev]

Alain: for the EN (reads the rationale why it is not covernd for software)

13:52:34 [Detlev]

JJ: maybe it means that it is more difficult to achieve - not quite clear

13:52:52 [Detlev]

q+

13:53:05 [Detlev]

JJ: why is it impossible?

13:53:09 [JJ]

ack Detlev

13:53:50 [AlainVagner]

I have checked in the GitLab of the EN 301 549, there is no issue about this SC.

13:54:44 [Detlev]

JJ: possible in iOS and Androind, possibly more difficult in other Software environments

13:55:18 [Detlev]

...no issue in the issue tracker for EN 301549 - maybe we should create one?

13:55:36 [Detlev]

...was frst excluded in section 508, EN followed on

13:56:31 [Detlev]

Gleidson: it is difficult to implement in the Android development environment - nothing documented

13:58:09 [Detlev]

Gleidson: was referring to Jetpack Compose

13:58:34 [Detlev]

JJ: will discuss with WCAG2ICT to see how we can cooperate

13:58:36 [Detlev]

q+

13:58:44 [JJ]

ack Detlev

14:00:04 [JJ]

SC 2.1.1 issue: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/12

14:00:53 [Detlev]

Detlev: explaining why keyboard a11y is difficult

14:01:15 [JJ]

Zakim, list participants

14:01:15 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been Detlev, audrey, AlainVagner, RacheleD, Karla, Mick, Devanshu, Jamie

14:01:36 [JJ]

present+ Gleidson

14:01:47 [JJ]

present+ Victoria

14:02:07 [JJ]

Zakim, list participants

14:02:07 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been Detlev, audrey, AlainVagner, RacheleD, Karla, Mick, Devanshu, Jamie, Gleidson, Victoria

14:02:40 [JJ]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:02:42 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/12-matf-minutes.html JJ

14:04:29 [JJ]

Zakim, list participants

14:04:29 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been Detlev, audrey, AlainVagner, RacheleD, Karla, Mick, Devanshu, Jamie, Gleidson, Victoria

14:05:42 [JJ]

present- AA

14:05:48 [JJ]

present- Aashutosh

14:05:50 [JJ]

Zakim, list participants

14:05:50 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been Detlev, audrey, AlainVagner, RacheleD, Karla, Mick, Devanshu, Jamie, Gleidson, Victoria

14:05:56 [JJ]

rrsagent, make minutes\

14:05:56 [RRSAgent]

I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes\', JJ. Try /msg RRSAgent help

14:05:59 [JJ]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:06:01 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/12-matf-minutes.html JJ

14:08:44 [JJ]

TOPIC: Attendees

14:09:12 [JJ]

Attendees are not correctly logged in the minutes.

14:09:21 [JJ]

Attendees: JJ, Detlev, audrey, AlainVagner, RacheleD, Karla, Mick, Devanshu, Jamie, Gleidson, Victoria

14:09:23 [JJ]

present+

14:09:28 [JJ]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:09:30 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/12-matf-minutes.html JJ

14:23:38 [JJ]

JJ has joined #matf

14:23:48 [JJ]

zakim, bye

14:23:48 [Zakim]

leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Detlev, audrey, AlainVagner, RacheleD, Karla, Mick, Devanshu, Jamie, Gleidson, Victoria, JJ

14:23:48 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #matf

14:23:54 [JJ]

rrsagent, excuse us

14:23:54 [RRSAgent]

I see no action items