IRC log of coga on 2024-06-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:54:17 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #coga
14:54:21 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/06/10-coga-irc
14:54:21 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:54:22 [Zakim]
Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:54:22 [Rain]
I'm not sure we did, but I'll copy these minutes into the doc
14:54:29 [Lisa]
perfect
14:54:45 [Lisa]
for the muints we were discusing the color patern
14:54:55 [Lisa]
current draft https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CeqiSy3tVDoeBzCG8LpkyFT1fvugGk86JuT6NvfSiAA/edit#heading=h.25ug0gct5wb0
14:55:07 [Lisa]
summary of the last hour will be in there
14:55:26 [tburtin]
I want to for sure include these concepts but also not exclude those with color contrast issues like myself
14:56:22 [JMcSorley]
+1 to considering breaking this into more than one pattern - I think we might be more likely to get the recommendations approved if they are tied to other recommendations, where appropriate.
14:56:32 [julierawe]
+1
15:00:06 [Justine]
Justine has joined #coga
15:00:22 [Lisa]
agenda?
15:00:31 [Eric_hind]
Eric_hind has joined #coga
15:00:39 [Eric_hind]
present+
15:00:58 [tburtin]
present+
15:01:27 [Lisa]
scribe: Jan
15:01:39 [Jennie]
Jennie has joined #coga
15:01:43 [Rain]
present+
15:01:44 [Jennie]
present+
15:01:56 [Frankie]
Frankie has joined #coga
15:02:03 [Frankie]
present+
15:02:12 [Lisa]
present+
15:02:39 [Lisa]
scribe: Eric
15:02:40 [kirkwood]
present+
15:02:48 [julierawe]
present+
15:03:41 [rashmi]
present+
15:04:05 [Eric_hind]
Lisa: Review Action Items
15:04:58 [Eric_hind]
Lisa: Issue papers moved to github per email recently. Will need editors and comments.
15:06:20 [Eric_hind]
Lisa: 3 papers will need approval
15:06:36 [Eric_hind]
Eric: will be cleaning up github issues (old issues)
15:07:29 [Eric_hind]
Lisa: More to put into supported decision making. Due end of May, we should be able to move it forward in a couple of weeks.
15:08:02 [Eric_hind]
Julieawe: Style guide making progress, Frankie to review and then to be shared with group
15:08:37 [Eric_hind]
Rashmi: mental health proposals continuing
15:11:30 [Eric_hind]
Rain: Structure subgroup , prototyping continuing. Working with Roy on some adjustments. Working on validation schedule and techniques
15:11:54 [Eric_hind]
Lisa: Images on hold
15:14:00 [Lisa]
q?
15:14:56 [kirkwood]
q+
15:15:11 [Lisa]
ack next
15:15:23 [tburtin]
The survey: https://url.usb.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/BMIYCoAW9kivp0EM6ODi1tRRU?domain=w3.org/
15:15:27 [Eric_hind]
Julierawe: Clear language and WCAG 3, looking at conformance models.
15:15:48 [julierawe]
Thank you, Tiffany, for sharing the link!
15:16:12 [Eric_hind]
Kirkwood: agree that survey may not be as easy to understand without context or full understanding
15:16:16 [tburtin]
It copied funny https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Requirements_Survey/
15:16:47 [Justine]
+1 to John and Julie about the survey
15:17:21 [Rain]
q+
15:18:16 [tburtin]
https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/ is still very general
15:18:34 [Lisa]
ack next
15:18:36 [Lisa]
ack next
15:19:53 [Frankie]
q+
15:19:57 [julierawe]
Here is what we said in an email to the AG chairs:
15:19:57 [kirkwood]
q+ the survey is overwhelming
15:20:09 [tburtin]
I have already spent 2 hours going back and forth to any of the scratch pads I had.
15:20:46 [julierawe]
Cognitive barriers in this survey
15:20:46 [julierawe]
(1) Each of the 200 or so outcomes is on a different topic, so users have to reorient themselves with every row. This alone is exhausting.
15:20:46 [julierawe]
As presented, the list is a wall of text and challenging to read if you have a reading or visual processing disability.
15:20:46 [julierawe]
(2) Each outcome only has a one-sentence description. The survey does not include any context, exceptions, or links to more information. Users don't have enough to go on to make informed guesses.
15:20:48 [julierawe]
(4a) Related, the vote is binary (check the box for yes, leave unchecked for no), so someone who doesn’t know enough about a topic can’t abstain from voting on it if they fill out the form.
15:20:48 [julierawe]
(3) There are only two comment boxes, which means users have to scroll a lot if they want to note which of the ~200 outcomes they don’t have enough information to go on to make an up-or-down vote. This is a big burden on working memory and cognitive load in general.
15:20:48 [julierawe]
(4) There are no section headers in these incredibly long lists of outcomes so if users take the time and energy to scroll down to make a comment about one of them, it is very hard to scroll back and find where you were in the list. This too is exhausting.
15:21:11 [Eric_hind]
Rain: Warning; survey may be too long - perhaps many hours and is too overwhelming to many.
15:22:09 [kirkwood]
If I had more time I would have writtten a shorter survey
15:22:19 [kirkwood]
q+
15:22:36 [Lisa]
ack next
15:23:23 [JMcSorley]
+1 for not completing the survey as noted by Rain, Frankie, and Julie
15:23:28 [Lisa]
ack next
15:23:29 [Eric_hind]
Lisa: Group feeling is that the survey is very difficult to use. Frankie feels that there needs to be another approach that is more inclusive
15:24:48 [Lisa]
Q?
15:24:49 [Eric_hind]
Lisa: Will give this feedback to the group who gave it to us
15:26:24 [Lisa]
agenda?
15:26:28 [Eric_hind]
JMcSorley: Internationalization process and goals is proceeding with different groups (AG, Int'l). Concern about feedback process much like survey concerns.
15:27:32 [Eric_hind]
julierawe: Looking for flags related to things we need to discuss rather than remove (as related to internationalization)
15:27:52 [Eric_hind]
DavidSwallow: No updates from APA.
15:27:58 [Lisa]
next item
15:28:08 [Lisa]
close item 1
15:28:15 [Lisa]
next item
15:29:36 [julierawe]
q+
15:30:01 [Eric_hind]
Lisa: Editors notes for old issue papers; basic notes were published years ago and Julierawe mentioned some wording updates as related to how we describe the changes or delta with research or wording.
15:30:14 [Lisa]
This issue paper is out of date. An update is being worked on
15:30:14 [Lisa]
> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1L9-Wo2a78Ahuu3Q-16iyJUY8vp0pr4GWanylj6j3q7Q/edit#heading=h.tq3x4qwxxtd2>.
15:30:43 [Lisa]
This issue paper is out of date. An update is availible at ...
15:30:48 [julierawe]
q+
15:31:04 [Lisa]
ack next
15:31:31 [Lisa]
This issue paper is out of date. An update is being worked on at
15:31:38 [Lisa]
+1
15:31:39 [Eric_hind]
Lisa: Vote related to Symbols paper, if out of date, wording change to "The issue paper is out of date. An update is being worked at <URL>
15:33:01 [Lisa]
This draft is out of date. An update that addresses new technologies is being worked on at ...
15:33:06 [Lisa]
+1
15:33:07 [Eric_hind]
Lisa: Restated: "This draft is out of date, an update that addresses new technologies is being working on at:"
15:33:07 [julierawe]
+1
15:33:11 [Jennie]
+1
15:33:12 [Rain]
+1
15:33:13 [Eric_hind]
+1
15:33:16 [Frankie]
+1
15:33:17 [JMcSorley]
+1
15:33:20 [tburtin]
+1
15:33:22 [kirkwood]
+1
15:33:39 [DavidSwallow]
+!
15:33:42 [DavidSwallow]
+1
15:33:58 [Eric_hind]
Lisa: Vote carried to the change (all +1)
15:35:52 [Lisa]
This draft is out of date. There may be new research and new technologies that are relivent to this topic.
15:36:19 [Lisa]
q?
15:37:00 [julierawe]
"This draft may be out of date" vs "This draft is out of date"?
15:37:19 [Rain]
"This draft is being updated to"
15:37:21 [Lisa]
This draft may be out of date. There may be new research and new technologies that are relivent to this topic.
15:37:44 [julierawe]
And change "relivent" to "relevant"
15:37:52 [Lisa]
+1
15:37:53 [Rain]
+1 to updated language
15:37:56 [julierawe]
+1
15:37:57 [Eric_hind]
+1
15:38:01 [Jennie]
+1
15:38:03 [kirkwood]
+1
15:38:10 [Frankie]
+1
15:38:16 [Eric_hind]
Vote carried to the change (all +1)
15:38:20 [Lisa]
next item
15:39:13 [julierawe]
When is this meeting?
15:39:28 [Eric_hind]
Lisa: Note that Adapt specification will be about a half part of next weeks meetings - FYI on next weeks COGA call. (matt and Lionel)
15:39:56 [Eric_hind]
Lisa: Making content usable, new suggestions.
15:40:46 [Eric_hind]
Rashmi: Review New pattern name "Place the primary action button after all of the fields that require user input"
15:40:53 [Lisa]
17 the june is with adapt
15:43:27 [Jennie]
q+ recommend visually and programmatically - place programmatically and visually after
15:43:30 [Jennie]
q+
15:43:43 [Lisa]
ack next
15:43:59 [Jennie]
place programmatically and visually after
15:44:14 [tburtin]
+1 Jennie
15:44:21 [Rain]
+1 I've seen people do this wrong many times!
15:44:25 [rashmi]
+1
15:44:26 [Eric_hind]
+1
15:45:30 [Lisa]
+1
15:46:04 [Eric_hind]
Eric_hind: Vote carried to the change (all +1)
15:46:44 [Jennie]
q+
15:47:14 [Lisa]
ack next
15:47:23 [Jennie]
1.3.2
15:47:23 [Jennie]
Meaningful Sequence
15:47:23 [Jennie]
Level A
15:48:56 [Eric_hind]
Jennie: Note on 1.3.2; we should write to strengthen this criteria from the first "Primary action button" pattern we just discussed.
15:49:46 [Eric_hind]
Rashmi: New pattern, "The error messages should be easy to notice/locate Or error messages should be near or in proximity to the related field"
15:50:50 [kirkwood]
is that already covered in a different SC?
15:51:31 [Eric_hind]
Rashmi: When reviewing image in document (for this), there are visually (buttons/forms) covered by advertising.
15:52:48 [Lisa]
an additional error message may be nessisry at the top of the page so people knpw ther eis an error
15:53:24 [Eric_hind]
Lisa: Added changes/additions related to error messaging. Need to be visually clear as well as programmatically.
15:53:26 [Lisa]
Q?
15:53:27 [Jennie]
3.3.1
15:53:27 [Jennie]
Error Identification
15:53:27 [Jennie]
Level A - needs to add location near
15:53:53 [Rain]
q+
15:54:02 [Lisa]
ack next
15:54:17 [kirkwood]
the context needs to be clear?
15:54:24 [Lisa]
yes
15:55:05 [Jennie]
Proximity visually and programmatically associated
15:55:52 [Jennie]
q+
15:56:29 [Lisa]
ack next
15:58:03 [Eric_hind]
Jennie: Suggest that visually, the error messaging should be helpful to address the error.
15:58:26 [Lisa]
do we want in with clearer langiuage
15:58:27 [Jennie]
And may need to be above the field with the error
15:58:27 [Lisa]
+1
15:58:36 [rashmi]
+1
15:58:38 [kirkwood]
+1
15:58:38 [Eric_hind]
+1
15:58:40 [Jennie]
+1
15:58:42 [Frankie]
+1
15:58:46 [julierawe]
+1
15:58:55 [Eric_hind]
Eric_hind: Vote carried to the change (all +1)
15:59:21 [kirkwood]
Is it that he context of the error needs to be clear?
15:59:41 [kirkwood]
s/he/the
16:00:02 [julierawe]
Have to hop to next meeting, thanks!
16:00:04 [Lisa]
RRSAgent, publish minutes
16:00:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/10-coga-minutes.html Lisa