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14:59:19 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Meeting: PEWG
14:59:24 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Chair: Patrick H. Lauke
14:59:35 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6246bc85-4dae-43a8-a50c-9bc5a0829585/20240605T110000/
14:59:42 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Scribe: Patrick H. Lauke
14:59:53 <Patrick_H_Lauke> ScribeNick: Patrick_H_Lauke
14:59:54 <Patrick_H_Lauke> present+
15:00:08 <smaug> present+
15:01:58 <flackr> present+
15:03:15 <Patrick_H_Lauke> present+ mustaq
15:03:44 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Topic: Multi-pen support and persistent pointerId #353 https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/353
15:04:25 <Patrick_H_Lauke> related PR https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/pull/495
15:04:52 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: I left my +1 to the "sure, let's call it persisentDeviceId and put it on the event"
15:05:02 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: I also agree, not sure what default values would be
15:05:18 <Patrick_H_Lauke> s/persisentDeviceId/persistentDeviceId
15:05:43 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: for default value, it could be 0 for developers to do truthiness checks
15:06:11 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: we were originally going to have 0 as default, but some implementation used 0 for the mouse
15:06:22 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: initially there wasn't any decision, some used 0, some 1 ...
15:06:40 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: suggest as there's no precedent, we use 0 for uninitialised or unknown
15:07:55 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: would be nice if the id was random...
15:08:09 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: we're not reserving any id values for this, and it's supposed to be random
15:09:39 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: need to make sure that implementations don't just default to something like 1 for mouse
15:10:29 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: could do a WPT to check that persistentDeviceId for a mouse is different - open two origins/documents and verify that they don't have the same id for mouse
15:10:51 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: test could be cross-origin
15:10:58 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: sounds reasonable
15:14:24 <Patrick_H_Lauke> [discussion around whether or not different OSs support multiple mouse pointers - all OSs pretend it's one device?]
15:15:35 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: I believe Chrome does give a persistent id for mouse, so we can test that
15:18:28 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: so for next steps - I will explore setting up a new vNext branch, retarget this PR to that, then we should do one final review on this and can then merge it into that. Will follow up again with Philippe about whetehr or not new branch will cause problems
15:18:39 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: we should also work on test now, so we don't have to circle back
15:18:59 <Patrick_H_Lauke> ACTION: Patrick to set up new vNext branch and repoint PR there, group to review PR
15:19:14 <Patrick_H_Lauke> TOPIC: Meta-issue: update WPT to cover Pointer Events Level 3 #445 https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/445
15:19:49 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: did you all manage to meet up for some WPT work two weeks ago?
15:20:09 <Patrick_H_Lauke> mustaq: yes, we were able to close a few of the outstanding WPTs, should get there in a few more days
15:20:27 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: have a few more to do, but made good progress
15:20:41 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: I didn't have a chance, but we're in a good spot - we know what we need/want to test
15:20:47 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: so we have 2 left now
15:20:48 <mustaq> Two more left: #477 and #300
15:21:06 <smaug> https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7341
15:21:30 <Patrick_H_Lauke> TOPIC: AOB
15:21:39 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: the above just came up in some other discussion
15:22:26 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: mozilla internal triage of spec issues
15:24:34 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: i believe, mustaq, that your comment says we can't always consider the down for non-mouse as activation, but there may be some mitigations.
15:24:49 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: we could distinguish based on the cancelability of pointerdown whether it gives activation
15:25:14 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: if you haven't changed the touch-action, cancelling the pointerdown does not prevent scrolling
15:26:05 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: i don't know how we represent that state, I believe it's a bit handwavy in the spec. but there IS a difference betwen pointerdowns that CAN cause scrolling/can't be cancelled, and once that don't. this could help situation a bit, even if we can't fully resolve it
15:27:25 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: as dev, i fear danger of developer writing a pointerDown listener, testing on desktop with mouse, and then not realising it's not triggering/activating on touch/stylus
15:27:58 <Patrick_H_Lauke> mustaq: there is a fundamental difference between dragging with mouse vs dragging with finger...
15:28:14 <Patrick_H_Lauke> mustaq: Olli if you can add more context to the issue of what challenges you face...
15:28:27 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: oh this was only part of our triage, so no immediate challenge
15:28:43 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: not seen any recent bug reports for this
15:28:58 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: my concern is you can't use pointerevents reliably for user activation
15:29:16 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: forces people to use something like click. yeah we can continue thinking about this, but just as a reminder
15:29:57 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: was hoping that we can establish if you're in a situation where the pointerdown can't result in a scroll...
15:30:29 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: or we just say you can't get activation until click event (even for mouse), but that could potentially break implementations
15:31:18 <Patrick_H_Lauke> mustaq: i can't see a way to consolidate them, not all pointerdown will result in scroll, but the spec should say something either way
15:35:31 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: purely from my luddite view, I quite like the idea to try and not cause "accidental activation", if there's a way to differentiate (using cancelability or similar) a pointerdown on touch/stylus that is a scroll vs one that is doing something (because the author has used touch-action), then that would make sense
15:36:07 <Patrick_H_Lauke> [discussion that it's not directly the cancelability of the event that counts here, but some hint about whether it will or won't cause panning]
15:37:39 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: thank you all, catch you again in 2 weeks' time
15:37:47 <Patrick_H_Lauke> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
15:37:53 <Patrick_H_Lauke> rrsagent, generate minutes
15:37:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/05-pointerevents-minutes.html Patrick_H_Lauke
15:38:25 <Patrick_H_Lauke> rrsagent, bye
15:38:25 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2024/06/05-pointerevents-actions.rdf :
15:38:25 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Patrick to set up new vNext branch and repoint PR there, group to review PR [1]
15:38:25 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/06/05-pointerevents-irc#T15-18-59