IRC log of apa on 2024-06-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/06/05-apa-irc

12:59:36 [Zakim]

RRSAgent, make logs Public

12:59:37 [Zakim]

please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), janina

12:59:43 [janina]

Meeting: APA Weekly Teleconference

12:59:50 [janina]

Date: 05 Jun 2024

13:00:52 [janina]

Chair: Janina

13:00:52 [janina]

agenda+ Agenda Review & Announcements

13:00:52 [janina]

Agenda+ TPAC 2024 Planning

13:00:52 [janina]

agenda+ Task Force & Deliverables Updates

13:00:52 [janina]

agenda+ New Charters Review https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Horizontal+review+requested%22

13:00:55 [janina]

agenda+ HR A11y Review Comment Tracker https://w3c.github.io/horizontal-issue-tracker/?repo=w3c/a11y-review

13:00:58 [janina]

agenda+ Explicit Review Requests https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues

13:01:00 [janina]

agenda+ new on TR http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html

13:01:03 [janina]

agenda+ CSS Update (Paul) https://github.com/w3c/css-a11y/issues

13:01:05 [janina]

agenda+ Actions Checkin (Specs) https://github.com/issues/assigned

13:01:08 [janina]

agenda+ Other Business

13:01:10 [janina]

agenda+ be done

13:01:36 [janina]

/join #rqtf

13:05:03 [janina]

agenda?

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present+

13:59:01 [Fazio]

present+

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present+

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present+

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present+

14:02:24 [matatk]

present+

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scribe: Fredrik

14:02:44 [Dr_Keith]

present+

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present+

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present+

14:03:19 [Fredrik]

zakim, next item

14:03:19 [Zakim]

agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Announcements -- taken up [from janina]

14:03:26 [NehaJ]

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14:03:42 [NehaJ]

present+

14:03:45 [matatk]

q+

14:03:52 [Fredrik]

janina Prettz much standard agenda.

14:04:03 [matatk]

s/Prettz/Pretty/

14:04:24 [Fredrik]

janina We'll be without Janina next week - she will be at the UN.

14:04:36 [matatk]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:04:37 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/05-apa-minutes.html matatk

14:05:06 [Fredrik]

janina In two weeks, I am proposing, and I have ofered to EPUB that we could do a deep dive on all their specs. I want to narrow the focus to the ones that have elicited concern in the last couple of months, primarily the Fixed Layouts spec.

14:05:27 [Fredrik]

janina WE have an alternate direction by way of which Fixed Lzyout can work and get more accessibility.

14:05:54 [matatk]

s/WE have an/We have an/

14:05:58 [Fredrik]

janina I am very concerned personally on a personal view that htere is a note from EPUB talking about a11y and FL. The answer is that there are many aspects we consider important t that can't be met in FL.

14:06:09 [Fredrik]

janina I am not happy with that and I'm not sure what we are going to do with it.

14:06:17 [Fredrik]

janinaWe don't have any control over notes poublished by other WGs.

14:06:18 [Lionel_Wolberger]

s/Lzyou/layout

14:06:57 [Fredrik]

janina On the 19th, I'm expecting, it is porposed that we could have Gottfried for whom this was an EU concern. We also discovered concerns. And possible ways around it.

14:07:03 [Lionel_Wolberger]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:07:04 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/05-apa-minutes.html Lionel_Wolberger

14:07:10 [janina]

q?

14:07:10 [Fredrik]

janina So that means an EPUB focused agenda a and not our standard agenda.

14:07:11 [Lionel_Wolberger]

q+

14:07:17 [janina]

ack ma

14:07:25 [Lionel_Wolberger]

s/porposed/proposed

14:07:33 [matatk]

https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-fxl-a11y/

14:07:42 [Lionel_Wolberger]

scribe+ Fredrik

14:08:08 [Lionel_Wolberger]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:08:09 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/05-apa-minutes.html Lionel_Wolberger

14:08:19 [Fredrik]

matatk: For proper formamtting, we need a colon. That is a funny sentence.

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present+

14:09:20 [Lionel_Wolberger]

s/formamtting/formatting

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14:09:32 [Roy]

present+

14:09:36 [Fredrik]

matatk: Is anybody struggling with the W3C Calendar entry for this meeting?

14:10:26 [Fredrik]

Dr_Keith: I had a challenge to get into the meeting today. I got to a page with minutes from the main meeting. It took me a couple more clicks to get to the actual meeting.

14:12:11 [matatk]

ack me

14:12:57 [Fredrik]

zakim, next item

14:12:57 [Zakim]

I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Fredrik

14:13:05 [janina]

ack li

14:13:47 [Fredrik]

ack Lionel_Wolberger

14:13:59 [Fredrik]

q

14:14:24 [Fredrik]

janina: I was speaking for myself concerning EPUB but my sense is that APA would not be far away form what I'm saying.

14:14:53 [Fredrik]

Lionel_Wolberger: They have a pressing business case and balancing business against a11y may need some batting around.

14:17:09 [Lionel_Wolberger]

scribe+

14:17:52 [Lionel_Wolberger]

janina: One concern is with the title of the report, that currently includes the word 'accessibility'

14:20:22 [Lionel_Wolberger]

ack Lionel_Wolberger

14:20:37 [janina]

q?

14:21:21 [matatk]

subtopic: WCAG 2.0 issue - conformance levels

14:21:31 [PaulG]

q+

14:21:39 [Fredrik]

Fazio: I discovered that there is a 15 year gaping hole in WCAG 2.0. There has never been a deifnition of what conformance levels are. There is no definitions of what the leevels mean or where conormance criteria belong.

14:21:49 [Fredrik]

Fazio: This has caused a lot of issues.

14:22:02 [Fredrik]

Fazio: Perhaps we should make mentions of this in an ammended document.

14:22:14 [Fredrik]

Fazio: There is a Github issue for this issue.

14:22:15 [matatk]

https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/3889

14:22:19 [matatk]

gb, off

14:22:19 [gb]

matatk, issues and names were already off.

14:22:23 [Fredrik]

ack PaulG

14:22:24 [janina]

ack pa

14:22:34 [NehaJ]

WCAG level definition issue https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/3889

14:23:12 [Fredrik]

PaulG: The thign I've been going through for years based on a W3C graphic is a pyramid, which seems to be rather well-known.

14:23:33 [Fredrik]

janina: We're into the details of what it should be in detaill. It needs to be a generally defined thing though.

14:23:45 [Fredrik]

PaulG: I read it on a W3C site.

14:23:55 [Fredrik]

janina: I've read it, too.

14:24:01 [Fredrik]

janina: It needs to be linked directly in the spec.

14:24:17 [Fredrik]

matatk: The issue here seems that it is not normative.

14:24:41 [Fredrik]

Fazio: It is a n example, not a definition, and defeinitely not normative.

14:24:44 [PaulG]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/Understanding/conformance#levels

14:24:52 [matatk]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:24:53 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/05-apa-minutes.html matatk

14:24:59 [Fredrik]

janina: It's not up to us to fix it anyway.

14:25:12 [Fredrik]

janina: Our participation as individuals is very welcome on that thread.

14:25:20 [Fredrik]

janina: Were we to weigh in, we would need to be very formal about it.

14:25:40 [matatk]

subtopic: Epub (part 2) - data vis

14:26:22 [Fredrik]

janina: There is a lot of low vision stuff to consider here. I will pign Paul.

14:27:06 [matatk]

Data Navigator article (HT Paul): https://www.frank.computer/blog/2023/09/introducing-data-navigator.html

14:27:31 [Fredrik]

PaulG: At the lowest level the data navigator approach is to link the objects of a database relization in code, not unlike ARIA in making the associatiosn with the visuals. The system can then rea that and provide a bespoke navigation patern that matches the data visualization because of that linkage. That's the scaffold you have to add to the DV,

14:27:32 [Fredrik]

coming provided next to it, and that gives the system the ability to create these on-demand navigation features.

14:27:45 [Fredrik]

janina: You can get on-demand fixed layout anad that's default?

14:28:32 [Fredrik]

PaulG: That is a use case that I haven't seen a demo of. It should be possible though. Thedata is embedded in HTML. HTML can be altered to respond to reflow. It also responds to media queries. You can specify: when the media is in this shape, landscape, whaetever, then you have these specific featues that the system will provide you the navigation

14:28:33 [Fredrik]

for.

14:28:43 [janina]

q?

14:28:47 [Fredrik]

zakim, next item

14:28:47 [Zakim]

agendum 2 -- TPAC 2024 Planning -- taken up [from janina]

14:29:10 [Fredrik]

janina: I have started building a page for 24. I haven't gotten as far as giving you the link, but you may guess it if you want to .

14:29:39 [matatk]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2024

14:29:43 [Fredrik]

janina: You may expect it shortly on list. there will be an area on that page for you to add things you would like to see covered in the week, something liek "Possile topics".

14:30:01 [Fredrik]

janina: A planning page has been begun and we have conversations on the side, including with EPUB (surprise!).

14:30:03 [janina]

q?

14:30:10 [Roy]

https://www.w3.org/2024/09/TPAC/venue.html

14:30:58 [Fredrik]

Roy: Now we have already started a room booking offering. You can book your hotel room through this link. There's good reates here!

14:31:11 [Fredrik]

matatk: Some permission issues right there.

14:31:17 [Fredrik]

janina: Roy, might you talke a look at that?

14:31:29 [Fredrik]

janina: Booking early is strongly, emphatically advised.

14:31:31 [Fredrik]

zakim, next item

14:31:31 [Zakim]

agendum 3 -- Task Force & Deliverables Updates -- taken up [from janina]

14:31:51 [Fredrik]

janina: Our CFC was approved!

14:32:02 [matatk]

s/Our CFC/Our CTAUR CfC/

14:32:04 [Fredrik]

janina: We are working on messag9ing, I will give Roy messaging at the end of the week. Snawn Henry wil have some edits (always helpful!).

14:32:33 [Fredrik]

janina: There will be a WAI/announce e-mail going out. I invite you to look at the RQTF publication and share it with all your colleagues.

14:32:46 [Fredrik]

janina: We're very itnerested in signoff or issues we haven't been able to address yet.

14:32:46 [matatk]

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14:33:39 [Fredrik]

zakim, next item

14:33:39 [Zakim]

agendum 4 -- New Charters Review https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Horizontal+review+requested%22 -- taken up [from janina]

14:34:04 [Roy]

subtopic: Web Real-Time Communications Working Group Charter

14:34:05 [Roy]

- charter: https://w3c.github.io/webrtc-charter/webrtc-charter.html

14:34:05 [Roy]

- issue: https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues/462

14:34:15 [Fredrik]

Roy: Web RTC WG recharter!

14:34:34 [Fredrik]

Roy: They have already added us as a liaison WG and they want to work with us on a11y reqs.

14:34:43 [Fredrik]

janina: We have worked with them very happily thorugh RQTF.

14:34:49 [Fredrik]

janina: This is a very welcoming group!

14:34:52 [Lionel_Wolberger]

+1

14:35:13 [janina]

+1

14:35:18 [matatk]

+1

14:35:22 [Fredrik]

janina: Signed off unanimously!

14:35:38 [Fredrik]

zakim next item

14:35:46 [Fredrik]

zakim, next item

14:35:46 [Zakim]

agendum 5 -- HR A11y Review Comment Tracker https://w3c.github.io/horizontal-issue-tracker/?repo=w3c/a11y-review -- taken up [from janina]

14:35:57 [Roy]

subtopic: Add a principle that sites should not be _able_ to retaliate when users say no

14:35:57 [Roy]

- issue: https://github.com/w3ctag/privacy-principles/issues/418

14:36:06 [Fredrik]

Roy: Comment request.

14:36:22 [Fredrik]

Roy: This has somethign to do with Paul's suggestions on the design document.

14:36:46 [Fredrik]

matatk: This was Pauls suggestion on the Privacy Principles.

14:36:57 [Fredrik]

PaulG: I didn't write the topic - where'd that come from?

14:37:04 [Roy]

https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues/74#issuecomment-2088764802

14:38:58 [Fredrik]

matatk: What they are saying is that they already have a similar principle in the Design Principles. But we "Jeffrey Yaskin and someone else)... I don't know what the question is...

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14:39:10 [mike_beganyi]

present+

14:40:24 [Fredrik]

PaulG: Mys tatement was that early adopters of this could be fingerprinted by this. They aren't just marked as optin gin or out but they have the opportunity to, which means they are on specific browsers. Their statement is that a web app should be able to distinguish between making the choice or having it by default. They've marked it backburner

14:40:24 [Fredrik]

to address it in the next version. I'm fine with that. They have the language. I was asking for it to be a little softer.

14:40:44 [Fredrik]

janina: This is a ll wonderful and a great result and unles someone thinks it needs to be handled now, there is no need to dive in deeper.

14:41:15 [Fredrik]

matatk: The link was to the a11y issue in the PP repo. The issue I was looking at was in our repo though... (Fredrik is confused)

14:41:38 [Fredrik]

matatk: We probably won't need to add "needs resolution" at this point, may e in a couple of months.

14:41:43 [Fredrik]

PaulG: Sound good.

14:41:48 [Fredrik]

zakim, next item

14:41:48 [Zakim]

agendum 6 -- Explicit Review Requests https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues -- taken up [from janina]

14:42:03 [Fredrik]

Roy: Two this week.

14:42:08 [Roy]

subtopic: Controllers Documents

14:42:08 [Roy]

- issue: https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues/86

14:42:08 [Roy]

- spec: https://w3c.github.io/controller-document/

14:42:15 [Fredrik]

Roy: FPWD Controllers Document Version 1

14:42:34 [Roy]

https://w3c.github.io/controller-document/#accessibility-considerations

14:42:44 [Fredrik]

Roy: Comes from Verifiable Credentials WG. They have an a11y section and something in there, too. Looks good to me.

14:43:05 [Fredrik]

Roy: I think we can reiew the whole document.

14:43:10 [Lionel_Wolberger]

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14:43:13 [Fredrik]

janina: We should say what we need to say now, meaning June.

14:43:16 [Lionel_Wolberger]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:43:17 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/05-apa-minutes.html Lionel_Wolberger

14:43:42 [Fredrik]

matatk: WE need more time.

14:43:58 [Fredrik]

Roy: It is an editor's draft. They need a rec by September this year.

14:44:23 [Roy]

https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues/86

14:44:37 [Fredrik]

Lionel_Wolberger: I traditionally take the VCWG items.

14:44:40 [Fredrik]

janina: you've got it!

14:44:57 [Roy]

subtopic: Device Posture API

14:44:57 [Roy]

- issue: https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues/84

14:44:57 [Roy]

- spec: https://www.w3.org/TR/device-posture/

14:45:16 [Fredrik]

Roy: Device Posture API.

14:45:23 [Roy]

https://www.w3.org/TR/device-posture/#accessibility-considerations

14:45:25 [Fredrik]

Roy: They also have an a11y considerations section.

14:45:35 [Fredrik]

mat: I can explain what this is.

14:45:36 [Fredrik]

mat: It is actually one of ours.

14:46:10 [Fredrik]

matatk: It's about foldables. The screen size changes when you open or close a device which is foldable.

14:46:32 [Fredrik]

matatk: It is about giving developers tools to know that an open or close has happened.

14:46:52 [Fredrik]

matatk: The MQs tell you the information you need to know.

14:46:58 [matatk]

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14:47:12 [Fredrik]

janina: I'm noting that this hould be brought up with tthe FL in mind.

14:47:26 [Lionel_Wolberger]

PaulG: It already says, "Content shouldn't be designed for just one posture: The idea of foldable devices is their versatility and the ability for the user to change the posture as they see fit. Similarly to the orientation, it is important to not always choose for the user as they might have other needs but allowing them to choose the UI that fits

14:47:26 [Lionel_Wolberger]

their needs better. Ideally it is preferred to make the UI configurable."

14:47:40 [Fredrik]

matatk: It would be nice for someone other than me to look at this. I'm pretty familiar with it, to say the least.

14:48:40 [Fredrik]

janina: Do we nee d to tick a box here?

14:49:15 [Fredrik]

Roy: They want us to review the a11y conisderations section.

14:49:29 [Fredrik]

janina: I think our response is "Thanks, well done and thanks fo taking up our input so appropirately".

14:49:47 [Fredrik]

janina: "Also, its been a pleasure workign with you and please come back with your next spec."

14:50:32 [Fredrik]

PaulG: I'll let tthemknow.

14:50:34 [Roy]

https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues/84

14:50:37 [Fredrik]

Roy: Pointer coming!

14:50:42 [Fredrik]

zakim, next item

14:50:42 [Zakim]

agendum 7 -- new on TR http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html -- taken up [from janina]

14:51:10 [Fredrik]

Roy: Controller spec.

14:51:19 [Fredrik]

zakim, close this item

14:51:19 [Zakim]

agendum 7 closed

14:51:20 [Zakim]

I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

14:51:20 [Zakim]

8. CSS Update (Paul) https://github.com/w3c/css-a11y/issues [from janina]

14:51:21 [Fredrik]

zakim, next item

14:51:21 [Zakim]

agendum 8 -- CSS Update (Paul) https://github.com/w3c/css-a11y/issues -- taken up [from janina]

14:51:32 [Fredrik]

PaulG: thankfully nothing!

14:51:34 [Fredrik]

zakim, next item

14:51:34 [Zakim]

agendum 8 was just opened, Fredrik

14:51:42 [Fredrik]

zakim, close this item

14:51:42 [Zakim]

agendum 8 closed

14:51:43 [Zakim]

I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

14:51:43 [Zakim]

9. Actions Checkin (Specs) https://github.com/issues/assigned [from janina]

14:51:46 [Fredrik]

zakim, next item

14:51:46 [Zakim]

agendum 9 -- Actions Checkin (Specs) https://github.com/issues/assigned -- taken up [from janina]

14:52:07 [Fredrik]

matatk: There is something but we didn't have time. We were supposed to come back to fingerprinting this week but we'll have to do it next week.

14:52:20 [Fredrik]

matatk: Several of us are assigned to this and I've put a comment on it.

14:53:59 [matatk]

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14:54:02 [matatk]

Mark features that might expose accessibility tools - https://github.com/w3c/a11y-review/issues/194

14:54:19 [Fredrik]

matatk: If youre interested, the plot hath thickened.

14:54:29 [Fredrik]

janina: To be contineued. Next week.

14:54:36 [Fredrik]

zakim, next item

14:54:36 [Zakim]

agendum 10 -- Other Business -- taken up [from janina]

14:55:34 [Fredrik]

janina: Just a reminder on the EPUB side we have two conversations. They are likely to want to expand, we ware likely to want to focus. We are proposing a direction that we know we can't agree on on the 19th. It will take a lot more conersation, probably all the way to TPAC and beyond. We're finde with their business case ut hwo they charachtereise

14:55:34 [Fredrik]

their document and the implications thereof is our concern.

14:55:43 [Fredrik]

janina: I will put all of this to an e-mail that will go to the list.

14:55:48 [Fredrik]

janina: It#s not locked in yet.

14:56:20 [Fredrik]

Lionel_Wolberger: I deeply appreciate what you just did. Reverse those two points in the e-mail, though The secon dis a low-hanging frutit that they may snap up directly.

14:56:29 [Fredrik]

Lionel_Wolberger: I urge you to share more about the UN meeting.

14:56:36 [Fredrik]

janina: IT's ongoing management of the CRPD and a new 25 year plan.

14:56:59 [Fredrik]

janina: I will say more on this on teh 26th.

14:57:02 [Fredrik]

zakim, next item

14:57:02 [Zakim]

agendum 11 -- be done -- taken up [from janina]

14:57:11 [Fredrik]

janina: Thanks everyone for all your brilliant lovely participation.

14:57:17 [Fredrik]

janina: Sorry for honoring the whip and crackign your time.

14:57:43 [matatk]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:57:44 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/05-apa-minutes.html matatk

14:57:51 [Fredrik]

zakim, end meeting

14:57:51 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been janina, Fazio, mike_beganyi, PaulG, Fredrik, matatk, Dr_Keith, iali, Lionel_Wolberger, NehaJ, JenStrickland, Roy

14:57:53 [Zakim]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

14:57:55 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/05-apa-minutes.html Zakim

14:58:00 [Zakim]

I am happy to have been of service, Fredrik; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye

14:58:00 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #apa

14:59:55 [Fredrik]

rrsagent, bye

14:59:55 [RRSAgent]

I see no action items