IRC log of ag on 2024-05-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:42:53 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/05/28-ag-irc
14:42:57 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:42:58 [Zakim]
Meeting: AGWG Teleconference
14:43:04 [Chuck]
chair: Chuck
14:43:13 [Chuck]
meeting: AGWG-2024-05-28
14:43:22 [Chuck]
rrsagent, generate minutes
14:43:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/28-ag-minutes.html Chuck
14:43:32 [Chuck]
agenda+ Introduction to Conformance conversation
14:43:46 [Chuck]
agenda+ WCAG2ICT Review Discussio
14:44:02 [Chuck]
agenda- 2
14:44:10 [Chuck]
agenda+ agenda+ WCAG2ICT Review Discussion
14:44:22 [Chuck]
agenda+ Refining WCAG 3 structure continued
14:45:58 [Chuck]
regrets: Frankie Wolf, Bruce Bailey, Makoto Ueki, Roberto Scano
14:47:52 [alastairc]
regrets+ MichaelGower
14:56:38 [Chuck]
https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/fad52978-dc63-4427-90b9-e64dd31b0566/20240528T110000/
14:58:42 [Graham]
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14:58:50 [Francis_Storr]
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14:58:51 [Francis_Storr]
https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/3878
14:59:52 [Jennie_Delisi]
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14:59:54 [wendyreid]
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15:00:04 [Jennie_Delisi]
present+
15:00:19 [Jennie_Delisi]
*anyone else having trouble getting to the telecom page to get the join link for the meeting?
15:00:32 [dj]
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15:00:45 [wendyreid]
present+
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present+
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present+
15:01:58 [ToddL]
present+
15:02:22 [dj]
present+
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scribe+
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present+
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present+
15:02:42 [Nayan]
+present
15:03:01 [jeanne]
present+
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15:03:21 [giacomo-petri]
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15:03:22 [dj]
Chuck: last call of may
15:03:23 [giacomo-petri]
present+
15:03:29 [kevin]
present+
15:03:30 [alastairc]
present+
15:03:34 [Kimberly]
present+
15:03:40 [Azlan]
Also having a 500 error accessing the url shadi has listed above
15:03:42 [jtoles]
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15:03:43 [dj]
... introductions?
15:03:57 [dj]
... announcements:
15:04:00 [laura]
present+ Laura_Carlson
15:04:07 [kirkwood]
teleconf info pate issue can’t login
15:04:09 [dj]
... 1. AI
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present+
15:04:28 [jtoles]
present+
15:04:42 [Detlev]
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15:04:46 [dj]
... AGWG after hours last week, this is in consideration
15:04:50 [shadi]
present+
15:05:01 [dj]
... wendyreid said she would reach out to vendors
15:05:13 [wendyreid]
https://github.com/w3c/AB-memberonly/issues/180
15:05:14 [dj]
wendyreid: for automated transcription, we're collecting resources
15:05:14 [Azlan]
present+
15:05:53 [dj]
... we're looking for a vendor to enable us to use automated transcription
15:05:58 [ashleyfirth]
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15:06:05 [dj]
... we also want to preserve privacy
15:06:12 [dj]
... and we have specific needs:
15:06:22 [dj]
... - needs to be live editable
15:06:24 [DuffJohnson]
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15:06:32 [dj]
... needs to be quickly toggleable (off record stuff)
15:06:48 [dj]
... needs to keep our data controlled
15:07:08 [dj]
... comment other use-cases in the thread, or email me
15:07:11 [Chuck]
q?
15:07:18 [sarahhorton]
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15:07:31 [dj]
Chuck: our group might be a test case
15:07:34 [dj]
... any questions?
15:07:51 [dj]
... announcement 2. health & safety for TPAC
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15:08:01 [kirkwood]
present+
15:08:05 [ashleyfirth]
present+
15:08:05 [tburtin]
present+
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15:08:17 [scotto]
present+
15:08:19 [dj]
... AB wants to find a balance between participant safety and sediment
15:08:50 [dj]
... i would suggest talking with your advisory committee member if you're planning to attend and have specific health needs
15:09:14 [dj]
s/sediment/sentiment
15:09:54 [dj]
... there is a desire to be safe, and there are individuals that have their own ideas of what the best policy would be (that's what sentiment means here)
15:10:01 [dj]
... 3. old branches
15:10:15 [alastairc]
https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/3878
15:10:21 [dj]
alastairc: wcag2 repo, there are tons of old branches
15:10:40 [dj]
... we don't want old branches that won't be merged
15:11:14 [dj]
... we will remove anything more than 6 months old in a few weeks, so post a comment or update the table if you want yours saved
15:11:47 [Chuck]
q?
15:11:56 [mike_beganyi]
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15:12:11 [dj]
Chuck: any new topics people would like us to cover in a later meeting?
15:12:12 [mike_beganyi]
present+
15:12:15 [Chuck]
zakim, take up item 1
15:12:16 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Introduction to Conformance conversation -- taken up [from Chuck]
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15:12:37 [Rachael]
conformance link: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/17VJvnm5UQW4WUzIoo9QNPVGfePgaZa8ifZWs-wtmv7E/edit#slide=id.p
15:12:47 [TheoHale]
present+
15:13:18 [dj]
Rachael: conformance and the decisions around it is one of the most challenging conversations
15:13:40 [dj]
... we'd like to have 1-2 outcomes for later
15:14:12 [dj]
... [reads slide 2]
15:14:42 [dj]
... Guideline structure - structures have emerged from the Focus Visible subgroup and other subgroups
15:15:07 [dj]
... we need to figure out as a group what we want to do so that future subgroups know what they're doing from the start
15:17:09 [sarahhorton]
present+
15:17:51 [sarahhorton]
q+
15:17:58 [Chuck]
ack Sarah
15:18:22 [Chuck]
q+
15:18:23 [dj]
sarahhorton: i feel like we haven't been talking about the notion of critical errors anymore, is that still part of conformance?
15:18:31 [dj]
Rachael: i think that's part of tollerance
15:18:42 [Chuck]
ack Ch
15:18:45 [Rachael]
q
15:18:46 [dj]
Chuck: is that analogous to non-interference in WCAG2
15:18:47 [Rachael]
q+
15:18:58 [Chuck]
ack Rach
15:19:16 [dj]
sarahhorton: yeah, and i think there was an idea of not having any critical errors to pass bronze
15:19:32 [Chuck]
q?
15:19:37 [Detlev]
present+
15:19:43 [dj]
Rachael: yeah, we will absolutely dive into that as tollerance
15:20:41 [dj]
... [reads slide 4]
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15:20:51 [dj]
... you must meet all of the outcomes to meet a guideline (that's what the AND relationship means)
15:21:06 [dj]
... OR means you have multiple ways to meet a requirement
15:21:14 [dj]
... this is a potential structure
15:21:54 [dj]
... the percentages are complete estimate placeholders for now
15:22:25 [dj]
... there's a table of all the proposals
15:22:27 [Rachael]
History of proposals: https://github.com/w3c/silver/wiki/Conformance-Proposals-2018-to-present
15:22:37 [dj]
... jeanne has kept a list of all proposals to date
15:22:42 [Rachael]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/16B5q1DvKxTXioayJWzxFdXXxTrBClxBapBxokg8Nrjg/edit
15:23:23 [dj]
... [reads slide 5]
15:24:00 [dj]
... questions?
15:24:43 [dj]
... [moves on to reference section]
15:25:00 [dj]
... i highly encourage you to read the conformance section of WCAG3 if you haven't recently
15:25:17 [dj]
Chuck: vocabulary page is slide 8
15:25:24 [dj]
Rachael: they are also linked to from the front page
15:25:30 [Jennie_Delisi]
*Really appreciate the glossary, summary, and walk through
15:25:46 [wendyreid]
q+
15:25:46 [Chuck]
q?
15:25:50 [dj]
Chuck: we are introducing this conversation, and we expect it to take up the next several agendas
15:25:53 [Chuck]
ack wendy
15:26:02 [Nayan]
does anyone have the WCAG 3 proposal link?
15:26:08 [Rachael]
q+
15:26:15 [Chuck]
ack Rach
15:26:22 [dj]
wendyreid: we're hopefully going to land on one model, right?
15:26:32 [dj]
Rachael: we have two goals:
15:26:43 [dj]
... 1. come out with initial structure
15:27:04 [dj]
... 2 (for conformance conversation). come out with two possible directions which we can get public comment on
15:27:19 [ljoakley]
q+
15:27:20 [dj]
... we hope to be able to provide test pages and excel sheet models to try out the models
15:27:23 [Chuck]
ack lj
15:27:40 [dj]
ljoakley: is this slide deck available to us?
15:27:46 [dj]
Rachael: yes, it's also in the shared folder
15:27:59 [Nayan]
we use a specific excel sheet, how can we share what we are doing for conformance?
15:28:07 [Rachael]
https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/1e2lqoFnR8I0G933YghrMfGy06G8qH_zP
15:28:36 [alastairc]
Nayan - that's probably for WCAG 2.x? In which case it isn't relevent here, we're starting off with a new model
15:28:48 [kirkwood]
(needed to request access btw)
15:28:54 [Nayan]
our template - - got it
15:29:34 [alastairc]
Top level folder that people should have access to: https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/1BZe6A1zS5fKd3XH039edyOKcmsDMHTEg
15:29:35 [dj]
[there are access issues. people are working on it, and the advice is to save the link and it will be fixed later]
15:29:37 [Chuck]
zakim, take up next item
15:29:37 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- agenda+ WCAG2ICT Review Discussion -- taken up [from Chuck]
15:30:21 [dj]
Chuck: several points, issues, and comments raised in the last week
15:30:53 [dj]
MaryJoMueller: right after we started that review, we introduced a number of pointed changes
15:31:03 [dj]
... there have been two rounds of surveys so far
15:31:22 [dj]
present+ MaryJoMueller
15:31:49 [dj]
... there were a few open "needs review" issues -- only 4.1.1 Parsing required a change
15:32:16 [dj]
... i created a pull request for that
15:32:22 [alastairc]
https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/pull/379
15:32:30 [maryjom]
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15:33:16 [dj]
s/MaryJoMueller/maryjom
15:33:28 [maryjom]
https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/368#issuecomment-2135112937
15:33:31 [dj]
present- MaryJoMueller
15:33:35 [dj]
present+ maryjom
15:33:58 [dj]
... two new issues last week:
15:34:07 [dj]
... 1. focus not obscured
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15:34:55 [dj]
... floating toolbars and etcetera
15:35:04 [dj]
... such as in an authoring tool, editing bars
15:35:18 [dj]
... note to talk about that
15:35:35 [dj]
... 2. feedback from microsoft on reflow
15:36:19 [dj]
... reflow specifies specific scroll width/height
15:36:41 [dj]
... WCAG2ICT covers a wide variety of screens and screen dimensions, so might not be possible
15:36:54 [dj]
... question is what to do in that situation
15:37:58 [Chuck]
q?
15:38:00 [dj]
... this might need to be addressed as normative changes, which we can't do in WCAG2ICT
15:38:38 [dj]
Chuck: review clock has been reset
15:39:03 [dj]
maryjom: sooner the better as well
15:39:11 [Chuck]
zakim, take up next item
15:39:11 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- Refining WCAG 3 structure continued -- taken up [from Chuck]
15:39:13 [TheoHale]
Here is that issue in discussion related to WCAG2ICT: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/377
15:39:54 [maryjom]
present+
15:40:14 [dj]
alastairc: https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/87 (comment from 4 days ago)
15:40:55 [dj]
... in Text Alternatives, outcome was image has equivalent text alternative
15:41:09 [dj]
... there was also a decision tree of methods for conformance
15:43:04 [dj]
... Focus Appearance was slightly different
15:43:14 [dj]
... ("focus must be visually indicated")
15:43:21 [dj]
... the requirements had a slightly different structure
15:43:38 [dj]
... for all focus indicators, there are certain base requirements:
15:43:45 [dj]
... - must exist
15:43:51 [dj]
... - can't be obscured
15:43:56 [dj]
... - must be percsistent
15:44:01 [dj]
... [see rest of list]
15:44:19 [dj]
... then a set of hopefully mutually-exclusive scenarios
15:44:39 [dj]
... - using default user agent indicator
15:44:44 [dj]
... - not using default indicator
15:45:10 [dj]
... - - (specific requirements thereof)
15:45:43 [dj]
... adjacent contrast needs to work differently depending on the type of indicator you have
15:45:50 [dan_bjorge]
+1 to the approach of specific reqs for common types of indicator, much more realistic to test this with tools without having to resort to pixel-picking
15:46:50 [dj]
... [various other specific requirements for different types of indicators]
15:47:08 [dj]
... so slightly different structure from Text Alternatives
15:47:26 [dj]
... A) decision tree B) list of methods
15:47:38 [dj]
... [reads overview from github discussion]
15:47:48 [dj]
s/overview/questions
15:47:52 [kirkwood]
i’m wondering if having a “distinct style” should it not be a “distinct consistent style” (are we assuming this?)
15:48:13 [Chuck]
q+ to acknowledge comments made in irc
15:49:31 [Chuck]
ack Ch
15:49:31 [Zakim]
Chuck, you wanted to acknowledge comments made in irc
15:49:43 [dj]
Chuck: reads dan_bjorge's and kirkwood's comments
15:50:35 [dj]
kirkwood: wondering about the style of focus indicator being consistent throughout a site
15:50:57 [dj]
alastairc: maybe not at bronze -- there are lots of sites w/ different background colors for different places
15:51:00 [dj]
q+
15:51:10 [Chuck]
scribe+
15:51:42 [Chuck]
dj: Following up on John's comments on consistent indicator color and styling. I've seen sites with different backgrounds as a form of indicator.
15:51:56 [Chuck]
dj: I want to make sure we address that it is not at bronze.
15:52:01 [Jennie_Delisi]
* will there also be something to consider mouse focus in the future?
15:52:17 [dan_bjorge]
q+
15:52:29 [Chuck]
q+ to acknowledge Jennie's IRC question.
15:52:35 [dj]
alastairc: yeah, we will have more opportunity to address this as we continue the conversation
15:52:38 [Chuck]
ack dj
15:52:48 [TheoHale]
John Kirkwood comment, I do think having consistency across the site, within the roles, and in shape seems reasonable.
15:52:51 [Chuck]
ack dan
15:52:54 [dj]
... one example of this could be 'there is a consistent design applied...'
15:53:27 [dj]
dan_bjorge: do we need to be consistent about whether methods always need to be AND?
15:53:45 [dj]
... in WCAG2 we really commonly have different requirements which are listed differently
15:53:58 [dj]
scribe+
15:54:05 [Jennie_Delisi]
q+
15:54:13 [Chuck]
ack Ch
15:54:13 [Zakim]
Chuck, you wanted to acknowledge Jennie's IRC question.
15:54:18 [dj]
alastairc: we've got underlying requirements (example: must exist)
15:54:41 [dj]
... we could either separate those out, or have them repeated in each method
15:54:54 [Chuck]
ack Jennie
15:55:30 [dj]
Jennie_Delisi: are we going to include mouse focus indicators?
15:55:41 [dj]
alastairc: i think that's going to be separate
15:55:51 [Chuck]
q?
15:56:08 [alastairc]
https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/87
15:56:14 [dj]
... so i'd encourage people to have another look through
15:56:26 [dj]
... top-level comments can go on the github, document, etc
15:56:41 [dj]
... then pick your favorite guideline/outcome, and think about how you'd structure that
15:56:46 [Chuck]
q+ to emphasize the aspect of structure
15:57:09 [Chuck]
ack Ch
15:57:09 [Zakim]
Chuck, you wanted to emphasize the aspect of structure
15:57:09 [sarahhorton]
The default requirements could be thought of as prerequisites, and not meeting any one those requirements a critical error
15:57:29 [dj]
Chuck: in this conversation, we've been using Text Alternatives to show examples
15:58:06 [dj]
... you don't have to use Text Alternatives as your lens; you can pick any other that's appealing to you
15:58:14 [Chuck]
q?
15:58:22 [dj]
q+
15:58:40 [Chuck]
ack dj
15:58:46 [Chuck]
dj: Scribe change needed.
15:59:09 [kirkwood]
present+
15:59:16 [dj]
alastairc & Chuck: going to ad-hoc exercises now, agenda over
15:59:47 [Graham]
bye everypne
15:59:48 [dj]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:59:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/28-ag-minutes.html dj
15:59:55 [Graham]
lso just in case:
15:59:58 [Graham]
present+
16:01:38 [alastairc]
https://github.com/w3c/silver/wiki/Conformance-Proposals-2018-to-present
16:02:52 [alastairc]
https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag3/#guidelines
16:09:25 [Sam]
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16:13:16 [alastairc]
https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/87
16:13:35 [ToddL]
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16:18:22 [alastairc]
https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/wiki/Text-appearance-and-semantics-guideline-subgroup
16:21:18 [alastairc]
https://github.com/w3c/wcag/blob/main/guidelines/respec-config.js
16:26:29 [Francis_Storr]
present+
16:26:36 [Francis_Storr]
dang
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