15:02:29 RRSAgent has joined #tt 15:02:33 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/05/09-tt-irc 15:02:33 nigel has changed the topic to: TTWG Teleconference 2024-05-09 1500 UTC. Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/281 calendar and joining info at https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/0ae37799-0b56-4486-bc63-4fe241678675/20240509T150000/ 15:02:50 zakim, start meeting 15:02:50 RRSAgent, make logs Public 15:02:51 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 15:03:04 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/281 15:03:13 Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/04/25-tt-minutes.html 15:03:38 Present: Matt, Nigel, Gary, Andreas, Chris_Needham, Pierre, 15:03:42 Chair: Gary, Nigel 15:03:50 scribe+ cpn 15:04:04 scribe+ nigel 15:04:12 Topic: This meeting 15:05:31 Nigel: DAPT, some TTML issues on ttm:role, also relevant to DAPT. TPAC planning, there's a deadline. 15:05:53 Present+ Cyril 15:05:55 Andreas: Also briefly mention CCSUBs 15:06:13 Nigel: Anything else to cover today? 15:06:26 (nothing) 15:06:41 Topic: DAPT 15:07:09 Subtopic: Add informative section about mapping from TTML to the DAPT data model w3c/dapt#216 15:07:29 github: https://github.com/w3c/dapt/pull/216 15:08:14 Nigel: One of the points we got exercised about was the forwards and backwards comaptibility model 15:08:37 ... After last meeting, I've done some editing work. You may not have had time to review 15:10:18 ... PR preview is failing. So you'd need to clone the repo locally to view the branch 15:10:53 ... We already agreed to restrict the ttp:content profile attribute values to be ones the processor writing the document knows it can support 15:11:07 .... I moved that to the ttp:content profiles section 15:11:21 ... I decided the term "foreign vocabulary" was useful, so added that 15:11:47 ... Added advice on retaining unsupported foreign vocabulary if a child of a metadata element, but require pruning outside that space 15:12:40 ... So there's a place people can put stuff where it's not pruned. I documented the way foreign vocabulary is supported - create a document profile and include the profile designator in the content or processor profiles 15:12:48 atai has joined #tt 15:12:54 ... So a conformant processor will know what to do 15:13:25 ... Andreas commented, if you're trying to keep the foreign vocabulary, the document might be restructured such that the home of the vocabulary might not exist, so I added a note on that 15:13:32 ... Please have a look. Any immediate reaction? 15:13:39 Andreas: Thanks for addressing it, I'll review 15:14:08 Cyril: I'll also review. We talked about grouping of script events, nested divs, where did we end up 15:14:14 s/up/up?/ 15:14:50 Nigel: We specified rules and they have normative keywords on them. The rules haven't changed 15:15:21 ... (reads the current rules) 15:15:43 Cyril: Ok, will have to read again. 15:16:10 ... A side note, I commented that identifying a script event just by fragment ID seems fragile. 15:16:42 Nigel: Yes. We don't have other rules in place. I think ttm:role isn't a good mechanism for that 15:17:13 Cyril: If a document it does into multiple tools or workflows they might add IDs, seems fragile 15:17:36 Nigel: Not sure if a real world problem, but could be. Could end up with empty script events 15:17:54 ... More likely, the opposite will occur, things that should qualify as script events don't have the xml id and are ignored 15:17:57 q? 15:18:24 Cyril: What do you define as foreign vocabulary, is it anything outside the ttml and dapt namespaces? 15:18:53 Nigel: (reads current definition) 15:19:08 Foreign vocabulary consists of the set of elements and attributes whose namespace is not one of the namespaces listed in 5.3 Namespaces and the set of attributes in the global namespace that are not otherwise defined in DAPT or in [TTML2]. 15:19:25 Cyril: OK, I'll read again 15:19:52 Nigel: Two potentially overlapping sets of foreign and unrecognised vocabulary 15:20:10 ... Might relate to a feature the processor doesn't support. I tried to address both of those 15:20:19 Cyril: I'll read and let you know 15:20:52 Nigel: This is one of the last CR blocking issues. We should try to get it merged. 15:21:21 ... Anything else on this topic or DAPT things? 15:21:28 (nothing) 15:21:47 SUMMARY: Recent commit described, awaiting reviews 15:21:56 Topic: TTML2 ttm:role issues 15:22:36 Subtopic: Permit ttm:role attribute in ttm:desc elements w3c/ttml2#1247 15:22:42 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/1247 15:23:19 Nigel: I opened this to suggest we allow the ttm:role attribute in ttm:desc attributes. I've seen real world use of this 15:23:43 ... We resolved in September 2022 to allow metadata attributes on metadata elements 15:24:30 ... I noticed recently that ttm:role doesn't behave as I'd thought. Spec says it's a set of role values that apply to content elements, and it applies to that element and all its descendents. 15:25:17 ... So there's no way to invert the application of the role, it's an additive approach rather than an inheritance model that you might have e.g., color or language where what you set locally overrides what's set above. 15:25:46 ... Don't think the model is wrong, but it seems bizarre to have role applied to elements in the metadata space 15:26:34 Cyril: Why would putting things on the metadata element on a div apply to the div 15:26:46 Nigel: That's how it's defined 15:27:49 ... (talks through the spec detail) 15:28:51 ... "applies semantically to the div element and its descendants as a whole" 15:28:57 q+ 15:29:35 ... If we say, the child elements of metadata, e.g., ttm:desc, that doesn't permit a ttm:role attribute. If it should have one we'd have to work out the inheritance model 15:30:09 ... There's discussion in the issue. I checked DAPT, it defines a different attribute for the same thing 15:30:45 Cyril: So we should restrict the use of ttm:role? 15:31:04 Nigel: I think it's fine, but for DAPT we should explain the model 15:31:38 ... It's not obvious, which we discovered trying to implement it 15:31:48 ... Suggest closing this TTML2 issue with no change. 15:32:48 Cyril: What about issue1271? 15:33:32 Nigel: It doesn't say what happens in this context. My expectation is they're additive, so in both cases you are specifying roles that apply semantically to the metadata and content elements 15:33:52 Andreas: You'd need to define precedence if there are conflicting values 15:34:05 Nigel: They're additive rather than conflicting 15:34:45 ... It's clear ttm:role on the metadata child does apply to the div element and descendants. But not clear that ... 16:13:33 ... But not clear that the ttm:role attribute applied on the div also does so. 15:35:35 ... Precedence would suggest it could be one or other, but here I think you can both 15:36:11 Andreas: Could use exclusive values, just need to be clear how it's managed 15:36:37 Nigel: Doesn't have to be mutually exclusive, it could be both values 15:37:03 ... Should we allow role on ttm:desc? Options are to keep discussing and come back to it, or decide immediately 15:37:18 Cyril: It seems so complex, I'd steer away from ttm:role 15:37:38 Nigel: It's actually surprisingly simple, but I understand the reaction 15:38:06 ... What to with this issue? I've proposed closing it without change 15:38:26 ... Suggest we allow more time for consideration 15:38:34 SUMMARY: Allow more time for consideration 15:38:51 Subtopic: Inheritance model of ttm:role attribute is unclear w3c/ttml2#1271 15:38:58 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/1271 15:39:17 Nigel: role attributes on content elements also apply to descendants 15:39:26 ... Glenn agreed on this 15:39:52 ... Do we also need more time for this? It might be wording that's obviously missing, that includes attributes in the metadata attributes group 15:40:26 ... Proposal is to add attributes to the current definition 15:40:51 Cyril: I don't have a strong opinion, so would follow your suggestion. Would it need a new edition of TTML2 15:41:10 Nigel: We're in CR anyway, would like to do a new snapshot at some stage 15:41:42 s/CR/CR for a new update of TTML2/ 15:41:58 Nigel: Any objections to me proposing that additional wording? 15:42:26 SUMMARY: @nigelmegitt to propose a pull request for this change 15:42:26 ... I'll create a pull request 15:43:11 Topic: TPAC 2024 15:43:41 Nigel: Chris reminded me that the deadline for requesting meeting time is 20 May. We don't have a meeting before then 15:44:21 Atsushi: There's a WBS form to fill in before the deadline 15:45:41 Nigel: I'll assume we'll have a meeting. Gary and I will think about joint meetings 15:46:03 ... In the past we've met with CSS, but nothing has advanced, so may not need to 15:46:22 ... APA and MEIG, which was useful. Also MEIG is useful 15:46:37 ... I'd hope to be in an advanced stage with DAPT, so would be keen to do that 15:46:49 Cyril: What about the group that does SSML 15:47:22 Atsushi: There may be a CG, don't think there's a WG 15:47:44 https://www.w3.org/Voice/ 15:47:55 Nigel: Worth discussing overlap with DAPT 15:48:06 Cyril: Yes, but generally speech and voice mixing 15:48:49 Nigel: When we met with APA WG they were thinking about embedding speech directives in to HTML, they had a couple of different models 15:49:07 ... So would be worth talking with them 15:49:15 ... Do we need anything from Media WG 15:49:32 ... Timed Text in MSE always comes up 15:50:10 Andreas: The last MEIG meeting briefly discussed requirements for subtitles in immersive environments. We could see if there's a need to discuss between the groups on that 15:50:35 Chris: That came from Jer at Apple. 15:50:44 .. There's not really a MediaWG item on that. 15:50:50 .. It was more a gap analysis that Apple had done. 15:50:59 .. It's not something MediaWG has taken on. 15:51:14 .. It would be exploratory. There's no home for it yet as far as I know. 15:51:28 .. It may not be a joint meeting with the WG as the most appropriate mechanism. 15:51:42 .. It might be better in a TTWG meeting, or a breakout. 15:52:04 .. I'm happy to help and contact Jer about what he'd want to do with that. 15:52:19 .. At the time we discussed it in the WG we didn't really determine the next steps. 15:52:30 .. It was more being raised for awareness. 15:52:53 .. We could pull it into an MEIG joint meeting type of thing 15:53:31 Nigel: Any Community Groups to reach out to, probably the AD group 15:55:41 group: discussion of the WBS poll and how to arrange joint meetings 15:55:52 Gary: I can fill in the WBS poll and ping you with any questions Nigel 15:55:55 Nigel: Thank you 15:56:22 Chris: You can specify timeslots and flexibility re meeting times for joint meetings. 15:56:34 .. That means that one of the groups in the joint meeting needs to request a timeslot, 15:56:41 .. or we need to point out the timeslot for the joint meeting. 15:56:58 Nigel: TPAC is 23-27 September 15:57:17 ... Not aware that it's adjacent to other events 15:57:32 Pierre: Don't see anything major in my calendar 15:57:49 Nigel: So we probably can be flexible 15:58:55 Topic: CCSubs report 15:58:55 https://ccsubs.org/nab-2024-meetup/ 15:59:17 Andreas: We could discuss another time, and about a follow up meeting in Berlin on June 10 15:59:19 https://ccsubs.org/mws-2024-meetup-registration/ 16:00:11 Nigel: I'd encourage everyone to think about getting more interoperability in the market 16:01:34 .. and to read the report - it's concise, and tells you the key points. 16:01:37 Topic: Meeting close 16:01:49 Nigel: Thanks everyone, we've hit time. Let's adjourn [adjourns meeting] 16:01:54 rrsagent, make minutes 16:01:56 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/09-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:07:54 s/group?ing/grouping 16:08:06 s/where did we end up/where did we end up? 16:08:28 s/the current rules/the current rules in the pull request 16:10:16 s/If a document it does into multiple tools or workflows/If a document goes through multiple tools or workflows 16:11:43 s|issue1271|w3c/ttml2#1271 16:12:22 s/ But not clear that ...// 16:14:52 rrsagent, make minutes 16:14:53 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/09-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:18:32 rrsagent, make minutes 16:18:33 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/09-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:19:25 rrsagent, make minutes 16:19:26 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/09-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:23:39 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 16:23:47 zakim, end meeting 16:23:47 As of this point the attendees have been Matt, Nigel, Gary, Andreas, Chris_Needham, Pierre, Cyril 16:23:49 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 16:23:51 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/09-tt-minutes.html Zakim 16:23:57 I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 16:23:57 Zakim has left #tt 16:24:41 rrsagent, excuse us 16:24:41 I see no action items