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15:46:36 <AutomatedTester_> Chair: David Burns
15:46:59 <AutomatedTester_> meeting: WebDriver Meeting May
15:47:04 <AutomatedTester_> scribe: David Burns
15:47:14 <AutomatedTester_> scribenick: automatedtester_
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15:57:23 <AutomatedTester_> present+
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16:02:41 <AutomatedTester_> agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2024-05-BiDi
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16:04:50 <jgraham> RRSAgent: make minutes
16:04:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
16:05:00 <AutomatedTester_> Topic: Autofill Testing
16:05:03 <AutomatedTester_> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver/pull/1797
16:05:41 <AutomatedTester_> https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2024-05-BiDi
16:07:01 <AutomatedTester_> Yoav: We've been looking at the autofill space recently at shopify. There are a lot of issues with interop here and and how to ahndle this
16:07:31 <AutomatedTester_> ... it would be great if we could have a way to automate this through testing with webdriver and with WPT
16:07:58 <AutomatedTester_> ... working with Christian we have a test suite for the various issues that we have come against
16:08:16 <AutomatedTester_> ... we have put forward a webdriver PR on how to solve this
16:08:57 <AutomatedTester_> ... sadym has pointed out that we are now working on bidi which we have moved acorss to
16:09:27 <AutomatedTester_> ... and we have a simple API here where we save the data and then we have a way to trigger it
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16:09:46 <AutomatedTester_> so... does this solution seem sensible?
16:09:48 <AutomatedTester_> q?
16:09:57 <jgraham> q+
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16:11:04 <AutomatedTester_> theindra: I think Yoav has pointed out most of this
16:11:18 <AutomatedTester_> ... in the spec we have spent a lot of time trying to make this work
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16:11:36 <AutomatedTester_> ... so for merchants there is a lot of work going into this
16:12:02 <AutomatedTester_> ... so automated tests would be good here
16:12:04 <AutomatedTester_> ack next
16:12:39 <AutomatedTester_> jgraham: I don't know a lot about autofill and I've reached out to mozilla here on how to solve it
16:12:54 <AutomatedTester_> ... so from wpt point of view there is no spec and was browser defined
16:13:03 <whimboo> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/form-control-infrastructure.html#autofill
16:13:16 <AutomatedTester_> Yoav: there is something in the html spec and unfortunlaty it's not as precise as it should be
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16:13:42 <AutomatedTester_> ... there is a browser feature component here ad the UI can be different
16:13:43 <gsnedders> q?
16:13:46 <gsnedders> q+
16:14:26 <AutomatedTester_> ... some of the tests are implementing the current spec but where we want the spec to be
16:15:05 <AutomatedTester_> jgraham: from my point of view... i've seen autofill issues that look like browser issues and people get confused
16:15:18 <AutomatedTester_> ... so agree it's boundray breaking here
16:15:20 <AutomatedTester_> q?
16:15:22 <AutomatedTester_> ack next
16:15:56 <AutomatedTester_> gsnedders: from our side that we, apple, do ignore what the html calls field type
16:16:09 <AutomatedTester_> ... and there are a lot fo sites that try disable autofill
16:17:17 <AutomatedTester_> ... and we use heuristics to figure out what need this. We, apple, have issues with the spec being overly strict in the spec. We don't see the major issue in the webdriver at the moment but we need to look at this closer
16:17:38 <AutomatedTester_> Yoav: so... what you're saying is this has become a little bit of an adversary issue
16:17:57 <AutomatedTester_> .... do you know why sites do this?
16:18:24 <AutomatedTester_> gsnedders: some companies believe this is good security which is not the actual truth for them
16:18:39 <AutomatedTester_> ... I don't know enough of the why but I know it exists
16:18:45 <orkon> q+
16:19:32 <AutomatedTester_> Yoav: I see why uou dont want to solve that as too strict but it would be good to solve this for sites that are not being adversarial.
16:20:15 <AutomatedTester_> theindra: There is a spec for turning off the spec for turning off "disabling"
16:20:48 <AutomatedTester_> gsnedders: yes and we ignore that sometimes as it causes "breakages" which is better for the users not the developer
16:21:33 <AutomatedTester_> Yoav: I see where that is can make sense e.g. passwords being blocked from autofilled
16:22:10 <AutomatedTester_> ... it would be good to solve this for the 80% rather than for the perfect
16:22:30 <AutomatedTester_> gsnedders: where is this implemented in chromium
16:22:56 <AutomatedTester_> ack next
16:23:36 <AutomatedTester_> orkon: We, google, would need to discuss this with the autofill team. we know that this already exists in CDP
16:24:14 <AutomatedTester_> ... the current PR isn't necessarily in line with how browsers are working, like heuristics mentioned by gsnedders
16:24:45 <AutomatedTester_> ... it might be better to fill in the form and then get the browser to save that form and use it in a later tests
16:25:10 <AutomatedTester_> Yoav: is the issue with the rigidity of the "save" API.
16:25:41 <AutomatedTester_> orkon: there are times where we can have multiple credit card fields
16:26:14 <AutomatedTester_> ... and how would we do that in an API version?
16:27:10 <AutomatedTester_> Yoav: I see what you're saying as there could be real world examples with payment forms.
16:27:34 <AutomatedTester_> orkon: yes. there are payment forms across different iframes
16:28:16 <AutomatedTester_> Yoav: this is useful. It would be good if we can have these details in the PR
16:29:16 <AutomatedTester_> q?
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16:29:44 <AutomatedTester_> topic: unicode graphemes in `keyDown` events
16:29:56 <AutomatedTester_> github: https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/pull/46019
16:30:35 <AutomatedTester_> sadym: classic doesnt specify if we should follow grapheme clusters. There is a placeholder issue
16:30:55 <AutomatedTester_> ... I would like to make a decision here and either update tests or remove it?
16:30:59 <AutomatedTester_> q?
16:31:20 <jgraham> q+
16:31:29 <AutomatedTester_> gsnedders: this feels a little nebulous here. Grapheme clusters can vary a lot
16:31:42 <sadym> https://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode9.0.0/ch03.pdf#G2213
16:31:50 <AutomatedTester_> ack next
16:32:35 <AutomatedTester_> jgraham: this is defined in unicode but the fundamental issue is how much do we want to care about sendKey to map to 1 key
16:32:49 <AutomatedTester_> ... there was once a proposal once about adding IME support
16:32:57 <gsnedders> https://www.unicode.org/reports/tr29/#Grapheme_Cluster_Boundaries — which defines a bunch of different algorithms to generating grapheme clusters, but also: "These algorithms can be adapted to produce tailored grapheme clusters for specific locales or other customizations, such as the contractions used in collation tailoring tables."
16:33:35 <AutomatedTester_> ... the question here is "as a user" would you be able to do this as keypress or via composition events
16:34:32 <AutomatedTester_> sadym: from the user point of view. we have an api in classic sendkeys which doesn't exist in bidi
16:34:47 <AutomatedTester_> ... which takes the string and splits it and does the event handling
16:35:43 <AutomatedTester_> jgraham: yes. do we want to model this as 1 key press or composition? I think for simplicity we want to have this as 1 key press. This is what the IME. stuff would ggive us if we implemented it
16:36:24 <AutomatedTester_> sadym: so the next question. do we want graphemes or any number of symbols
16:37:09 <AutomatedTester_> jgraham: I don't think we want to allow people to type any number of chars here
16:37:15 <AutomatedTester_> q?
16:37:46 <AutomatedTester_> ... e.g. how would abc be handled in a form? one keypress doesnt make sense but a b c
16:38:14 <AutomatedTester_> sadym: so the summary is we want to support graphemes?
16:38:28 <AutomatedTester_> jgraham: yes that makes sense but we need gsnedders to give an opinion here
16:38:46 <AutomatedTester_> gsnedders: I think we do what ever appkit does here
16:40:08 <AutomatedTester_> gsnedders: I don't want a scenario where webdriver sends keystrokes that safari cant handle
16:40:27 <AutomatedTester_> action: gsnedders to get back to sadym on what happens in this scenario with appkit
16:40:47 <AutomatedTester_> topic: Clarify the logic to compute the initiator type of a request
16:40:59 <AutomatedTester_> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/698
16:41:17 <AutomatedTester_> orkon: we have an network initator which has a lot of TODOs
16:41:33 <AutomatedTester_> ... and we have been working throuh use cases in puppeteer
16:41:58 <AutomatedTester_> ... and we have been looking at the entire chain of the network
16:42:22 <AutomatedTester_> ... the current spec is missing the URL to show where the request has been started from
16:43:03 <AutomatedTester_> ... the ideal solution here would be to specify the initiator if possible. I know Chrome doesn't support it but we will look into how this could work
16:43:24 <AutomatedTester_> ... so the next question is would we want to align with the fetch spec ?
16:43:52 <jgraham> q+
16:44:18 <AutomatedTester_> ... it is feasible to keep track of the line number and position if another document initates the request
16:44:22 <AutomatedTester_> ack next
16:44:55 <AutomatedTester_> jgraham: the spec here didn't have it as we didn't know what clients might have
16:45:32 <AutomatedTester_> ... and we didn't know if things in the fetch spec are exposed... and I think we need to go investigate this a lot more
16:46:08 <AutomatedTester_> ... and we can take a proposal here to start from fethc spec. If there are things missing from the spec we need to figure that out
16:47:03 <AutomatedTester_> ... and if we need to add that to the fetch spec accordingly. so if we can write this up as a proposal so we can go figure out if this is something we can implement and then get back to you
16:47:30 <AutomatedTester_> orkon: I think for the most part I think that is fine but where in comes to the parser state that is not documented anywhere
16:48:17 <AutomatedTester_> ... and we know that if things are initated from a css file we have no way of knowing hwere it started
16:48:56 <AutomatedTester_> jgraham: for the parser stuff... we can see if the can expose them as we know devtools can show that data
16:49:25 <AutomatedTester_> ... it seems possible but we don't have this specified anywhere. we can say we will do a best effort
16:49:51 <AutomatedTester_> ... so we can avoid rewriting CSS and html spec to keep state
16:50:03 <AutomatedTester_> orkon: ok... I will go write a proposal on this then
16:50:22 <AutomatedTester_> topic: AT-Driver: SafariDriver & Glass Panes;
16:50:34 <AutomatedTester_> github: https://github.com/w3c/at-driver/issues/75
16:51:39 <AutomatedTester_> jugglinmike: we have been working with aria folks for automating screenreaders
16:52:05 <AutomatedTester_> ... for safari we are working on a customer voice and keypresses
16:52:21 <AutomatedTester_> ... so we use webdriver to set the browser state
16:53:11 <AutomatedTester_> ... but we've hit a safari glass pane
16:53:52 <AutomatedTester_> ...which has lead to use looking to specify higher level intents
16:54:52 <AutomatedTester_> ... so we want to speak to folks at apple to help us to solve this security protection
16:55:05 <AutomatedTester_> ... and are other browsers looking to implement it
16:55:13 <AutomatedTester_> q?
16:56:03 <AutomatedTester_> gsnedders: we are aware that the glass pane does prevent some usecases
16:56:35 <AutomatedTester_> q?
16:57:24 <AutomatedTester_> ... what I will say is that you need to raise an issue here so we can try look at this.
16:57:48 <gsnedders> s/issue here/issue on feedback assistant/
16:58:31 <jgraham> RRSAgent: make minutes
16:58:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
16:58:51 <jgraham> RRSAgent: make logs public
16:59:02 <jugglinmike> AutomatedTester: The main reason the glass pane exists is to work with a historic lack of profiles
17:00:17 <AutomatedTester_> jgraham: we don't have plans to change our security model in Firefox
17:00:35 <gsnedders> it's not just profiles; it's also the risk of WebDriver directly being able to exfiltrate data from a session if the user starts treating it as their real browser
17:00:55 <gsnedders> jugglinmike: also please send me the feedback ID once you've filed!
17:01:07 <jugglinmike> will do gsnedders
17:01:11 <jgraham> RRSAgent: make minutes
17:01:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
17:01:19 <orkon> present-
17:02:36 <jgraham> Can anyone access the minutes?
17:03:22 <jimevans> I do not see the minutes, no.