18:01:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
18:01:10 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/05/07-aria-apg-irc
18:01:12 <jugglinmike> rrsagent, make log public
18:01:28 <jugglinmike> Zakim, start the meeting
18:01:28 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
18:01:30 <arigilmore> arigilmore has joined #aria-apg
18:01:30 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
18:01:51 <jugglinmike> Topic: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force Weekly Teleconference
18:04:24 <arigilmore> present+
18:04:51 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
18:04:54 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
18:05:31 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria-apg
18:05:41 <howard-e> howard-e has joined #aria-apg
18:05:42 <Matt_King> present+
18:05:45 <howard-e> present+
18:06:18 <jugglinmike> Topic: Setup and Review Agenda
18:06:43 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg
18:07:12 <jugglinmike> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/May-7%2C-2024-Agenda
18:07:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Any requests for change to agenda?
18:07:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hearing none, we'll move forward as planned
18:08:15 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: No meeting May 14 (it's Access U; I'll be there, and I'll be trying to recruit for this group)
18:08:28 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next meeting: May 21
18:08:43 <jugglinmike> Topic: Thank you Andrea
18:08:55 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Andrea Cardona has accepted a new position outside IBM. She says good bye. We say Thank you ... and please come back if you can!
18:09:10 <jugglinmike> arigilmore: Her last day was about two weeks ago
18:10:14 <Jem> Jem has joined #aria-apg
18:11:01 <Jem> rrsagent, make minutes
18:11:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/07-aria-apg-minutes.html Jem
18:13:52 <jugglinmike> Jem: There is an "invited expert" system to allow people to stay in the group if they change their employer
18:15:17 <jugglinmike> Topic: Publication status
18:15:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: due to Access U, I decided we'd move the publication from today to the 21st of May
18:15:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I thought keeping it today would just be too much stress
18:16:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If you look at this milestone, none of the pull requests in it are ready, but several close
18:16:17 <jugglinmike> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/milestone/31
18:16:37 <jugglinmike> daniel-montalvo: I'm not aware of anything that will keep us from publishing on the 21st, but I'll let you know if anything comes uo
18:16:51 <jugglinmike> s/comes uo/comes up/
18:17:00 <jugglinmike> Topic: Feed example update
18:17:33 <jugglinmike> howard-e: pull request #2775 wasn't working because the pull request was out of sync with the repository which generates the preview
18:18:11 <jugglinmike> howard-e: To resolve it, I went to the generated pull request and just updated it with the main branch of the "build" repository and re-ran the relevant GitHub Action
18:18:53 <jugglinmike> howard-e: I think this will continue to happen with some of the older pull requests. We should probably document the process of manual updating so that it's not only me who can correct this problem
18:19:39 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's some great news that it's in sync. I tested this, and the "CTRL+End" thing in the preview is working great
18:19:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think arigilmore's work on this is done and that this is practically "ship ready"
18:20:10 <jugglinmike> arigilmore: Thanks to the team for all the help. I'm really glad that this will be in the next release
18:20:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I can't believe this one took so long!
18:20:42 <jugglinmike> Topic: Update to AT Support tables
18:20:58 <jugglinmike> preview link: https://deploy-preview-317--aria-practices.netlify.app/aria/apg/patterns/radio/examples/radio-activedescendant/
18:21:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: five changes have been made based on feedback from this Task Force and the ARIA-AT community group
18:21:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: that includes
18:22:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: a column header in the first column
18:22:12 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: a new title for the second and third columns
18:22:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: removed the word "supported" from every cell for a cleaner presentation
18:23:18 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We changed the order of rows to alphabetical (thanks to howard-e and team--it looks like that got fixed this morning)
18:23:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The only thing left to do is to finish the content which explains the meaning of the rows and columns
18:23:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We'll probably have to work asynchronously on that to finish in time for the 21st of this month
18:24:23 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Just like we discussed last week, we'll add the link to just below the heading that's above the table
18:24:31 <jugglinmike> Jem: Looks good to me, Matt_King. Great job!
18:25:46 <jugglinmike> daniel-montalvo: This "must have" versus "should have" may be problematic. This assumes the spec language. We should try to explain where these are coming from.
18:26:08 <jugglinmike> daniel-montalvo: I've been having a look at the AT documentation. I think if you go down that path, then you can understand.
18:26:25 <jugglinmike> daniel-montalvo: I still kind of prefer using other language
18:26:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We're intentionally using RFC 2119
18:27:15 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: the idea is that, in the long term, by aligning the terminology, we might be able to one day reverse-engineer a spec from the tests
18:27:33 <jugglinmike> daniel-montalvo: I'm glad to learn that there has been agreement between the main stakeholders
18:27:46 <jugglinmike> daniel-montalvo: I would appreciate this to be in the "about" page
18:27:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Agreed. It will definitely be there
18:28:12 <jugglinmike> Jem: "Test-driver spec" sounds awesome
18:28:51 <Jem> s/Test-driver spec/A
18:28:59 <Jem> s/Test-driver spec/AT test driven/
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18:31:06 <jugglinmike> Topic: Support for experimental content
18:31:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We have this "preview" pull request for the experimental content
18:32:04 <jugglinmike> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2977
18:32:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's based on a fake experimental copy of the "tree view" example
18:32:39 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm wondering whether or not we would be able to merge all of these changes except for the fake preview..
18:33:14 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: ...so that we could proceed without changing anything visible in the APG, but that it would allow us the open a new pull request which could introduce experimental content
18:33:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm wondering if we could get these changes in place without the experimental content just so that the infrastructure is available
18:34:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I expect that the first experimental content for APG could take multiple weeks if not months
18:34:16 <jugglinmike> howard-e: I think that would be definitely possible
18:34:28 <jugglinmike> howard-e: It relates to a question I had in the pull request review
18:34:51 <jugglinmike> howard-e: If there is no experimental content, then that section at the bottom of the page is just empty
18:35:15 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Could we change the script to only include that section if there is at least one piece of experimental content?
18:35:22 <jugglinmike> howard-e: Yes, that should be possible
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18:36:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If we move forward with this, that will allow us to begin moving forward with ARIA Actions
18:36:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: as far as I know, I think ARIA Actions is the most important experimental content coming up
18:37:14 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Other things in ARIA 1.3 (e.g. annotations) come to mind, but we don't have enough people to work on that stuff right now, I think
18:37:28 <jugglinmike> Topic: New and unlabeled issues
18:37:44 <jugglinmike> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+created%3A%3E2021-08-15+no%3Alabel++sort%3Aupdated-desc
18:38:47 <jugglinmike> Subtopic: How to properly implement typical e-commerce comboboxes
18:38:54 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2999
18:39:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think this person is asking whether the elements in a dropdown list of a combobox can be links or work like links
18:40:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In the example website, it looked to me like the combobox they have for their search type-ahead is working really nicely
18:40:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If you follow that link, and you go to the search button, it opens a dialog which is just a combobox and a search button
18:40:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I used the term which they suggested, "bags"
18:41:29 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In the dropdown for the combobox, are those styled as links visually? Do they work like links for other people? They don't seem to behave like links for me; they seem to just execute a search
18:41:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't know if maybe this is something that is non-obvious to a screen reader user
18:44:03 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: The items function like links to me--they cause a navigation
18:44:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Yeah, it works that way for me, too, but the screen reader doesn't tell me it's a link. I wonder if that's what people are concerned about
18:45:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: You can't open those links in a new tab as a keyboard user because the focus is on the search box
18:46:07 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: I can open the links in a new tab as a mouse user by clicking with the middle button
18:46:34 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't think there's a problem with this implementation as far as I can tell.
18:47:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The only problem with the options not being links is that they don't have all the functionality of links. The dropdown certainly works as I would expect it to work
18:47:39 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It's not clear to me why this is a special pattern
18:48:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't know if using a grid in the drop-down (so that the link could be exposed as a link) is an improvement. I don't know if the dropdown items need to be exposed as links
18:51:20 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Though I haven't tried this with multiple screen readers...
18:53:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This looks just like APG's listboxes. It feels fine to me
18:54:08 <jugglinmike> present+ siri
18:54:35 <jugglinmike> Jem: I don't see any listbox role in this design
18:54:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Somehow JAWS is going into forms mode, though
18:56:30 <jugglinmike> Jem: Ah, I see the "listbox" role, now
18:57:09 <jugglinmike> Jem: the role "option" is on the <li> element
18:58:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: the option is a child of group, which is allowed
18:58:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There is a heading inside of a listbox, which is a validation issue
18:59:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't know if this is a special pattern. It looks to me like this is the listbox with grouped options, and the options behave as links. There isn't a rule against options behaving as links as far as I know
19:00:03 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Any executable elements is allowed to execute a command. One such command is "open this page" which is what a link does
19:00:55 <jugglinmike> siri: how does a user know that an item is a link if it isn't exposed as a link?
19:01:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Well, what else would the user expect the items in a list of "search results" to do?
19:02:46 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
19:02:46 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been arigilmore, jugglinmike, Matt_King, howard-e, siri
19:02:48 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
19:02:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/07-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim
19:02:56 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
19:02:56 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent, leave
19:02:56 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
19:02:56 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-apg