13:01:37 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #matf
13:01:41 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/05/01-matf-irc
13:01:41 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:01:42 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
13:01:51 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF 1 May 2024
13:01:51 <Zakim> got it, JJ
13:02:01 <JJ> present+
13:02:05 <RacheleD4> present+
13:02:35 <AA> AA has joined #matf
13:02:38 <JJ> agenda+ How WCAG 2.2 Relates to Mobile
13:02:50 <JJ> agenda+ 2.5.8 Target Size
13:02:52 <Carol> present +
13:02:58 <Carol> present+
13:03:23 <JJ> zakim, agenda?
13:03:23 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
13:03:24 <Zakim> 1. How WCAG 2.2 Relates to Mobile [from JJ]
13:03:24 <Zakim> 2. 2.5.8 Target Size [from JJ]
13:03:47 <JJ> agenda+ Scribe
13:03:54 <JJ> zakim, agenda?
13:03:54 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
13:03:55 <Zakim> 1. How WCAG 2.2 Relates to Mobile [from JJ]
13:03:55 <Zakim> 2. 2.5.8 Target Size [from JJ]
13:03:55 <Zakim> 3. Scribe [from JJ]
13:03:57 <JJ> zakim, open agenda 3
13:03:57 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Scribe -- taken up [from JJ]
13:04:12 <Devanshu> Devanshu has joined #matf
13:04:35 <JJ> IRC cheetsheat: https://github.com/w3c/matf/wiki/IRC-Cheatsheet
13:05:56 <julianmka> julianmka has joined #MATF
13:06:02 <AA> present+
13:06:04 <julianmka> present+
13:06:05 <Joe_Humbert> present+
13:06:07 <Mick> Mick has joined #MATF
13:06:18 <Mick> present+
13:06:21 <Devanshu> present+
13:07:38 <quintinb> quintinb has joined #MATF
13:08:03 <JJ> nominate a scribe
13:08:07 <JJ> Zakim, nominate a scribe
13:08:07 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Mick
13:08:15 <quintinb> present+
13:08:22 <JJ> nominate a scribe
13:08:27 <JJ> Zakim, nominate a scribe
13:08:27 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose julianmka
13:09:49 <JJ> scribe: quintinb
13:09:58 <JJ> Zakim, scribe: quintinb
13:09:58 <Zakim> I don't understand 'scribe: quintinb', JJ
13:10:19 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:10:19 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- How WCAG 2.2 Relates to Mobile -- taken up [from JJ]
13:11:38 <quintinb> TOPIC: Touch Target size (2.5.8)
13:12:54 <quintinb> JJ considering moving comments for sheet in a data repo (git)
13:13:39 <quintinb> q+ JJ Any ideas how to track comments in the document
13:14:06 <Joe_Humbert> I like github, because people can add comments and they are visible
13:14:53 <quintinb> I like Github too, we could use issues for each criteria
13:14:56 <Devanshu> +1
13:15:20 <Mick> +1 for Github, and creating documents for each criteria, will be easier to manage and track.
13:15:24 <julianmka> could we move out of the spreadsheet and into Github fully? I would rather not track 2 places.
13:15:34 <quintinb> agree julianmka
13:15:39 <Joe_Humbert> +1 for not 2 places
13:15:46 <quintinb> I am nothing if not redundant
13:16:13 <Joe_Humbert> q?
13:16:45 <Joe_Humbert> I was seeing if anyone was in the queue
13:16:51 <JJ> q+ Joe_Humbert
13:16:53 <JJ> q?
13:16:59 <JJ> q- Joe_Humbert
13:17:40 <quintinb> JJ confirms to use GitHub
13:17:52 <quintinb> How do we use GitHub? JJ to propose
13:18:12 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:18:12 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- 2.5.8 Target Size -- taken up [from JJ]
13:19:36 <quintinb> Joe: Pixel conversion: CSS pixel is the native density for the platform.
13:19:55 <quintinb> q+ Could we provide a mechanism to convert? Like a calculator?
13:21:04 <quintinb> JJ: We should align with WCAG2ICT
13:21:33 <Mick> I asked this question recently in the MATF slack channel. The consensus was the same - to see 24 pixels being equivalent to whatever the appropriate unit used for other platforms - for iOS this is 24 points and for Android this is 24 density-independent pixels. This is an approach Deque follows as well I believe.
13:22:17 <julianmka> q+
13:22:47 <quintinb> AA: should we just use mm on the screen, as specified by NN?
13:22:59 <Devanshu> WCAG2ICT notes: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/293#issuecomment-1903545744
13:23:46 <quintinb> JJ: Android can modify density, so perhaps mm can be difficult
13:25:01 <quintinb> Joe: Can't verify, but it's consistent across devices and settings
13:25:28 <Mick> Would points or density-independent pixels be more helpful to developement teams then using mm?
13:27:01 <quintinb> quintinb: Users can define what they want the physical size to be, the separation is intentional
13:27:59 <Joe_Humbert> Q+
13:28:12 <quintinb> julian: Should we just follow the platform guidelines? Fingertips are variable in size and not precise. Shouldn't we be advocating for large touch targets?
13:28:56 <quintinb> Rachele: Shouldn't we just reference the AAA requirement?
13:29:04 <quintinb> Joe confirms
13:30:01 <julianmka> q-
13:30:48 <quintinb> JJ: (AA) Spacing can be 24 from another target and then size can be anything
13:31:09 <quintinb> Sorry that was a reference to WCAG_AA not AA the user
13:32:17 <Mick> As an observation - we tried previously pushing Apple and Android sizes to our teams and got so much pushback from designers about it being too big.
13:32:18 <AA> I will make sure to add my name as AAK, to avoid confusion quintinb
13:32:41 <Joe> Joe has joined #matf
13:32:58 <Joe_Humbert8> Joe_Humbert8 has joined #matf
13:33:44 <quintinb> ty AAK
13:33:48 <Joe_Humbert> Joe_Humbert has joined #matf
13:35:16 <quintinb> quintinb: we also need to be considerate that Google does allow for 32x32dp in seemingly certain cases
13:37:34 <quintinb> JJ: Relying on public documentation can be problematic as the internal algo doesn't necessarily follow the 48x48 rule
13:37:34 <quintinb> https://github.com/google/Accessibility-Test-Framework-for-Android/blob/c65cab02b2a845c29c3da100d6adefd345a144e3/src/main/java/com/google/android/apps/common/testing/accessibility/framework/checks/TouchTargetSizeCheck.java#L164
13:39:45 <quintinb> JJ: We may have to figure out what Google's math is - maybe someone can look later
13:40:27 <quintinb> JJ A lot of people asking how to check size
13:40:40 <quintinb> q+
13:40:50 <JJ> q+ Joe_Humbert
13:40:55 <JJ> ack quintinb
13:42:04 <quintinb> quintinb: ADB can be used to extract the ally tree and the density, which can calculate the dp size
13:42:22 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:42:23 <Mick> A physical ruler or sending screenshots and using likes of photoshop. Neither  massively accurate but have struggled to find other methods when not having access to code in audits.
13:42:24 <quintinb> JJ: but we need to be understanding of what tools auditors need
13:42:28 <quintinb> q-
13:43:15 <quintinb> Joe: Uses the scanner with larger requirements because it reports the details of what is wrong
13:43:19 <Mick> That's clever Joe_Humbert
13:43:40 <quintinb> agree - thanks Joe - I think I failed to understand previously
13:44:14 <quintinb> Mick has done an audit against 2.2
13:44:59 <quintinb> They have been sending screenshots and measuring with a ruler
13:45:36 <JJ> agenda+ 1.3.5 Input Purpose
13:45:49 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:45:49 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- 1.3.5 Input Purpose -- taken up [from JJ]
13:45:55 <Joe_Humbert> there is no way to set a custom size in Apple's Accessibility inspector. Also I think the inspector rules are closed source
13:51:54 <quintinb> JOE: In HTML if a first name is registered, but no autocomplete doesn't work then it's a fail
13:52:56 <quintinb> JJ: Should we just add guidance on attributes and how to validate if they are available
13:54:10 <quintinb> Joe: keyboard types might be easier
13:56:04 <quintinb> Joe: Will try research how he can find out how to find autofill attributes
13:58:53 <quintinb> Joe: Where can testers put this dummy data
14:00:23 <quintinb> JJ: will look into MarkDown as a format for the success criteria
14:00:57 <quintinb> Joe: Do we know anyone who has experience writing tests
14:03:29 <julianmka> iOS can set autofill for Safari from any contact. Wondering if that setting propagates throughout apps.
14:06:07 <JJ> Quintin: has experience writing automated accessibility tests
14:06:49 <JJ> JJ: also has experience writing these; with source code access you can certainly extract input type related properties. Without source code access it's harder, believes it's possible on Android but probably not on iOS.
14:07:06 <JJ> Zakim, list participants
14:07:06 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been JJ, RacheleD, Carol, AA, julianmka, Joe_Humbert, Mick, Devanshu, quintinb
14:07:13 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:07:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/01-matf-minutes.html JJ
14:07:47 <JJ> Zakim, meeting: MATF 1 May 2024
14:07:47 <Zakim> I don't understand 'meeting: MATF 1 May 2024', JJ
14:07:51 <JJ> meeting: MATF 1 May 2024
14:08:11 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:08:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/01-matf-minutes.html JJ