IRC log of matf on 2024-05-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:01:37 [RRSAgent]

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13:01:41 [RRSAgent]

logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/05/01-matf-irc

13:01:41 [Zakim]

RRSAgent, make logs Public

13:01:42 [Zakim]

please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ

13:01:51 [JJ]

Zakim, this is MATF 1 May 2024

13:01:51 [Zakim]

got it, JJ

13:02:01 [JJ]

present+

13:02:05 [RacheleD4]

present+

13:02:35 [AA]

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13:02:38 [JJ]

agenda+ How WCAG 2.2 Relates to Mobile

13:02:50 [JJ]

agenda+ 2.5.8 Target Size

13:02:52 [Carol]

present +

13:02:58 [Carol]

present+

13:03:23 [JJ]

zakim, agenda?

13:03:23 [Zakim]

I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:

13:03:24 [Zakim]

1. How WCAG 2.2 Relates to Mobile [from JJ]

13:03:24 [Zakim]

2. 2.5.8 Target Size [from JJ]

13:03:47 [JJ]

agenda+ Scribe

13:03:54 [JJ]

zakim, agenda?

13:03:54 [Zakim]

I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:

13:03:55 [Zakim]

1. How WCAG 2.2 Relates to Mobile [from JJ]

13:03:55 [Zakim]

2. 2.5.8 Target Size [from JJ]

13:03:55 [Zakim]

3. Scribe [from JJ]

13:03:57 [JJ]

zakim, open agenda 3

13:03:57 [Zakim]

agendum 3 -- Scribe -- taken up [from JJ]

13:04:12 [Devanshu]

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13:04:35 [JJ]

IRC cheetsheat: https://github.com/w3c/matf/wiki/IRC-Cheatsheet

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13:06:02 [AA]

present+

13:06:04 [julianmka]

present+

13:06:05 [Joe_Humbert]

present+

13:06:07 [Mick]

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13:06:18 [Mick]

present+

13:06:21 [Devanshu]

present+

13:07:38 [quintinb]

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13:08:03 [JJ]

nominate a scribe

13:08:07 [JJ]

Zakim, nominate a scribe

13:08:07 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Mick

13:08:15 [quintinb]

present+

13:08:22 [JJ]

nominate a scribe

13:08:27 [JJ]

Zakim, nominate a scribe

13:08:27 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose julianmka

13:09:49 [JJ]

scribe: quintinb

13:09:58 [JJ]

Zakim, scribe: quintinb

13:09:58 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'scribe: quintinb', JJ

13:10:19 [JJ]

move to next agendum

13:10:19 [Zakim]

agendum 1 -- How WCAG 2.2 Relates to Mobile -- taken up [from JJ]

13:11:38 [quintinb]

TOPIC: Touch Target size (2.5.8)

13:12:54 [quintinb]

JJ considering moving comments for sheet in a data repo (git)

13:13:39 [quintinb]

q+ JJ Any ideas how to track comments in the document

13:14:06 [Joe_Humbert]

I like github, because people can add comments and they are visible

13:14:53 [quintinb]

I like Github too, we could use issues for each criteria

13:14:56 [Devanshu]

+1

13:15:20 [Mick]

+1 for Github, and creating documents for each criteria, will be easier to manage and track.

13:15:24 [julianmka]

could we move out of the spreadsheet and into Github fully? I would rather not track 2 places.

13:15:34 [quintinb]

agree julianmka

13:15:39 [Joe_Humbert]

+1 for not 2 places

13:15:46 [quintinb]

I am nothing if not redundant

13:16:13 [Joe_Humbert]

q?

13:16:45 [Joe_Humbert]

I was seeing if anyone was in the queue

13:16:51 [JJ]

q+ Joe_Humbert

13:16:53 [JJ]

q?

13:16:59 [JJ]

q- Joe_Humbert

13:17:40 [quintinb]

JJ confirms to use GitHub

13:17:52 [quintinb]

How do we use GitHub? JJ to propose

13:18:12 [JJ]

move to next agendum

13:18:12 [Zakim]

agendum 2 -- 2.5.8 Target Size -- taken up [from JJ]

13:19:36 [quintinb]

Joe: Pixel conversion: CSS pixel is the native density for the platform.

13:19:55 [quintinb]

q+ Could we provide a mechanism to convert? Like a calculator?

13:21:04 [quintinb]

JJ: We should align with WCAG2ICT

13:21:33 [Mick]

I asked this question recently in the MATF slack channel. The consensus was the same - to see 24 pixels being equivalent to whatever the appropriate unit used for other platforms - for iOS this is 24 points and for Android this is 24 density-independent pixels. This is an approach Deque follows as well I believe.

13:22:17 [julianmka]

q+

13:22:47 [quintinb]

AA: should we just use mm on the screen, as specified by NN?

13:22:59 [Devanshu]

WCAG2ICT notes: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/293#issuecomment-1903545744

13:23:46 [quintinb]

JJ: Android can modify density, so perhaps mm can be difficult

13:25:01 [quintinb]

Joe: Can't verify, but it's consistent across devices and settings

13:25:28 [Mick]

Would points or density-independent pixels be more helpful to developement teams then using mm?

13:27:01 [quintinb]

quintinb: Users can define what they want the physical size to be, the separation is intentional

13:27:59 [Joe_Humbert]

Q+

13:28:12 [quintinb]

julian: Should we just follow the platform guidelines? Fingertips are variable in size and not precise. Shouldn't we be advocating for large touch targets?

13:28:56 [quintinb]

Rachele: Shouldn't we just reference the AAA requirement?

13:29:04 [quintinb]

Joe confirms

13:30:01 [julianmka]

q-

13:30:48 [quintinb]

JJ: (AA) Spacing can be 24 from another target and then size can be anything

13:31:09 [quintinb]

Sorry that was a reference to WCAG_AA not AA the user

13:32:17 [Mick]

As an observation - we tried previously pushing Apple and Android sizes to our teams and got so much pushback from designers about it being too big.

13:32:18 [AA]

I will make sure to add my name as AAK, to avoid confusion quintinb

13:32:41 [Joe]

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13:33:44 [quintinb]

ty AAK

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13:35:16 [quintinb]

quintinb: we also need to be considerate that Google does allow for 32x32dp in seemingly certain cases

13:37:34 [quintinb]

JJ: Relying on public documentation can be problematic as the internal algo doesn't necessarily follow the 48x48 rule

13:37:34 [quintinb]

https://github.com/google/Accessibility-Test-Framework-for-Android/blob/c65cab02b2a845c29c3da100d6adefd345a144e3/src/main/java/com/google/android/apps/common/testing/accessibility/framework/checks/TouchTargetSizeCheck.java#L164

13:39:45 [quintinb]

JJ: We may have to figure out what Google's math is - maybe someone can look later

13:40:27 [quintinb]

JJ A lot of people asking how to check size

13:40:40 [quintinb]

q+

13:40:50 [JJ]

q+ Joe_Humbert

13:40:55 [JJ]

ack quintinb

13:42:04 [quintinb]

quintinb: ADB can be used to extract the ally tree and the density, which can calculate the dp size

13:42:22 [JJ]

ack Joe_Humbert

13:42:23 [Mick]

A physical ruler or sending screenshots and using likes of photoshop. Neither massively accurate but have struggled to find other methods when not having access to code in audits.

13:42:24 [quintinb]

JJ: but we need to be understanding of what tools auditors need

13:42:28 [quintinb]

q-

13:43:15 [quintinb]

Joe: Uses the scanner with larger requirements because it reports the details of what is wrong

13:43:19 [Mick]

That's clever Joe_Humbert

13:43:40 [quintinb]

agree - thanks Joe - I think I failed to understand previously

13:44:14 [quintinb]

Mick has done an audit against 2.2

13:44:59 [quintinb]

They have been sending screenshots and measuring with a ruler

13:45:36 [JJ]

agenda+ 1.3.5 Input Purpose

13:45:49 [JJ]

move to next agendum

13:45:49 [Zakim]

agendum 4 -- 1.3.5 Input Purpose -- taken up [from JJ]

13:45:55 [Joe_Humbert]

there is no way to set a custom size in Apple's Accessibility inspector. Also I think the inspector rules are closed source

13:51:54 [quintinb]

JOE: In HTML if a first name is registered, but no autocomplete doesn't work then it's a fail

13:52:56 [quintinb]

JJ: Should we just add guidance on attributes and how to validate if they are available

13:54:10 [quintinb]

Joe: keyboard types might be easier

13:56:04 [quintinb]

Joe: Will try research how he can find out how to find autofill attributes

13:58:53 [quintinb]

Joe: Where can testers put this dummy data

14:00:23 [quintinb]

JJ: will look into MarkDown as a format for the success criteria

14:00:57 [quintinb]

Joe: Do we know anyone who has experience writing tests

14:03:29 [julianmka]

iOS can set autofill for Safari from any contact. Wondering if that setting propagates throughout apps.

14:06:07 [JJ]

Quintin: has experience writing automated accessibility tests

14:06:49 [JJ]

JJ: also has experience writing these; with source code access you can certainly extract input type related properties. Without source code access it's harder, believes it's possible on Android but probably not on iOS.

14:07:06 [JJ]

Zakim, list participants

14:07:06 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been JJ, RacheleD, Carol, AA, julianmka, Joe_Humbert, Mick, Devanshu, quintinb

14:07:13 [JJ]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:07:15 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/01-matf-minutes.html JJ

14:07:47 [JJ]

Zakim, meeting: MATF 1 May 2024

14:07:47 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'meeting: MATF 1 May 2024', JJ

14:07:51 [JJ]

meeting: MATF 1 May 2024

14:08:11 [JJ]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:08:12 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/01-matf-minutes.html JJ