13:26:15 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ixml
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13:26:25 <cmsmcq> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:26:48 <cmsmcq> scribe: cmsmcq
13:26:59 <cmsmcq> Meeting:  Invisible XML Community Group
13:27:21 <cmsmcq> Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/04/16-ixml-minutes
13:27:59 <cmsmcq> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2024Apr/0011.html
13:29:50 <cmsmcq> RRSAgent, please make minutes
13:29:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/30-ixml-minutes.html cmsmcq
13:31:32 <cmsmcq> Scribe:  Michael Sperberg-McQueen
13:31:39 <cmsmcq> ScribeNick: cmsmcq
13:31:47 <cmsmcq> RRSAgent, please make minutes
13:31:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/30-ixml-minutes.html cmsmcq
13:33:42 <cmsmcq> scribe-: cmsmcq
13:33:44 <cmsmcq> RRSAgent, please make minutes
13:33:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/30-ixml-minutes.html cmsmcq
13:34:22 <cmsmcq> scribe- cmsmcq
13:34:24 <cmsmcq> RRSAgent, please make minutes
13:34:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/30-ixml-minutes.html cmsmcq
13:35:33 <cmsmcq> scribe: cmsmcq / Michael Sperberg-McQueen
13:36:04 <cmsmcq> scribe: cmsmcq / Michael Sperberg-McQueen
13:36:07 <cmsmcq> RRSAgent, please make minutes
13:36:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/30-ixml-minutes.html cmsmcq
13:54:37 <Steven> Steven has joined #ixml
13:55:28 <Steven> rrsagent, here
13:55:28 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2024/04/30-ixml-irc#T13-55-28
13:56:41 <norm> norm has joined #ixml
13:59:20 <cmsmcq> Present:  John Lumley, Steven Pemberton, Michael Sperberg-McQueen, Bethan Tovey-Walsh, Norm Tovey-Walsh
14:01:39 <cmsmcq> Action 2023-01-10-f continues.
14:01:52 <john> john has joined #ixml
14:02:16 <cmsmcq> Action 2024-03-05-c shows progress - using ssh is better, for github, than using http.
14:02:40 <cmsmcq> Action 2024-03-19-a is awaiting work by Norm.
14:02:57 <cmsmcq> Action 2024-04-16-a continues.
14:03:20 <cmsmcq> Action 2024-04-16-d is done.
14:03:43 <cmsmcq> Action 2024-04-16-e is done.
14:03:49 <cmsmcq> Other actions are continuing.
14:04:12 <cmsmcq> Topic:  Status of implementations
14:04:14 <cmsmcq> Nothing to report.
14:04:31 <cmsmcq> Topic:  Round-tripping
14:05:06 <cmsmcq> John asks for info from Steven's paper on round-tripping for Prague, to mention it in his round-tripping paper for Balisage.
14:05:35 <cmsmcq> Topic:  Status of testing and test suites
14:05:38 <cmsmcq> Nothing to report.
14:06:08 <cmsmcq> Topic: Version numbers
14:06:44 <norm> https://invisiblexml.org/pr/243/index.html#L3041
14:06:48 <cmsmcq> Pull request #243 is Norm's attempt to improve the situation, although it does not attempt to resolve all issues.
14:07:40 <norm> https://invisiblexml.org/pr/243/autodiff.html#L3041
14:08:50 <cmsmcq> John:  so the upshot is that under these rules, a processor supporting renaming is no longer required to require a version 1.1 declaration.
14:08:54 <cmsmcq> Norm: yes.
14:09:38 <cmsmcq> Norm proposes to take another action to work on ixml:state.
14:10:19 <cmsmcq> At the least, 'version-mismatch' is a clumsy term.  Perhaps you need to say which version you actually used.
14:11:00 <cmsmcq> John:  no good to say "we ran it under some other version" without telling you what you ran it under.
14:11:25 <cmsmcq> Bethan:  and the name ixml:state is not a great match for this meaning.
14:11:38 <cmsmcq> Steven:  yes, it started simple and we have put a lot more into it.
14:11:57 <cmsmcq> Norm muses on a possible separate attribute like, say, ixml:version to say what version was used.
14:14:37 <cmsmcq> ACTION: Norm to propose wording for possible changes to status reporting.
14:15:51 <cmsmcq> Discussion over whether the presence of an ixml:* attribute is always / still an indicator that something did not run cleanly.
14:16:26 <cmsmcq> MSM thinks reporting which version was used for an unlabeled grammar is not a sign that something didn't run cleanly.
14:16:44 <cmsmcq> Norm suggests that perhaps it's just the presence of ixml:state that indicates something a bit off.
14:16:57 <Steven> I think that if you don't specify a number, you don't care, and so shouldn;t get an "error"
14:17:05 <Steven> s/;/'/
14:17:34 <cmsmcq> RESOLVED:  to merge PR #243.
14:18:04 <cmsmcq> Issue #237 can now be closed.
14:18:39 <cmsmcq> Issue #238 can now be closed.
14:20:46 <cmsmcq> Topic:  Issue #236 When must version numbers change?
14:21:53 <cmsmcq> Steven suggests that when new syntax is allowed, no version number change is needed.  A down-version processor will reject the new syntax on purely syntactic grounds.
14:28:03 <cmsmcq> Discussion of what "no version number is needed" means.
14:28:33 <cmsmcq> Steven is considering the question "when does a grammar need to declare its version number?"
14:29:05 <cmsmcq> He is not proposing that we not use a new version number on the specification.
14:31:02 <cmsmcq> John suggests thinking about what language(s) a grammar is a sentence in.
14:32:04 <cmsmcq> To take a concrete example, a grammar that uses renaming will be a member of L(1.1) but not of L(1.0).
14:32:20 <cmsmcq> A grammar that does not use renaming will be a member of both.
14:37:21 <cmsmcq> MSM attempts to summarize our consensus:
14:37:46 <cmsmcq> ... If the set of strings accepted by the specification grammar does not change,
14:38:02 <cmsmcq> ... and the XML structures to which they are mapped do not change,
14:38:12 <cmsmcq> ... and the meaning of those structures does not change,
14:38:25 <cmsmcq> ... then a revision of the spec need not carry a new version number.
14:38:42 <cmsmcq> If any of those things change, the spec requires a new version number.
14:38:56 <cmsmcq> No version number is required on the input grammar.
14:39:32 <cmsmcq> Including it will assist clarification / diagnosis of problems.
14:40:06 <cmsmcq> Omitting a version number in the input grammar will lead the processor to process the grammar using some version.  If the string is accepted,
14:41:21 <cmsmcq> ... and the meaning has not changed, the user will be happy.
14:41:32 <cmsmcq> If the meaning has changed, the user may or may not be happy.
14:41:59 <cmsmcq> ACTION:  Bethan to open an issue on whether to distinguish 'major' from 'minor' versions.
14:43:10 <cmsmcq> rrsagent, please make minutes
14:43:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/30-ixml-minutes.html cmsmcq
14:44:29 <cmsmcq> RESOLVED: close issue #236 on the basis indicated.
14:45:04 <cmsmcq> (Steven points out that this resolution is not about what he thought #236 was about in the first place, but is willing to close #236.)
14:45:31 <cmsmcq> Topic:  Any other business
14:45:51 <cmsmcq> Norm and Steven are going to Prague, but no one else is planning to be there.
14:46:21 <cmsmcq> Steven reports that John Chelsom's City EHR health records system is being rolled out in Ukraine.
14:47:21 <cmsmcq> John Chelsom is of course looking for volunteers to help on this open-source problems.
14:48:56 <cmsmcq> We agreed to cancel the meeting of 14 May (conflict for NTW and MSM).
14:49:03 <cmsmcq> Next meeting 28 May.
14:49:30 <cmsmcq> John Lumley offers regrets for 28 May.
14:49:39 <cmsmcq> RRSAgent, please make minutes
14:49:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/30-ixml-minutes.html cmsmcq
14:49:59 <cmsmcq> Chair:  Steven Pemberton
14:50:38 <cmsmcq> s/MSM thinks reporting/... MSM thinks reporting/
14:50:40 <cmsmcq> RRSAgent, please make minutes
14:50:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/30-ixml-minutes.html cmsmcq
14:51:07 <cmsmcq> s/... MSM thinks reporting/MSM thinks reporting/
14:51:10 <cmsmcq> RRSAgent, please make minutes
14:51:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/30-ixml-minutes.html cmsmcq
14:59:58 <cmsmcq> ScribeOptions:  nodraft
15:00:02 <cmsmcq> RRSAgent, please make minutes
15:00:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/30-ixml-minutes.html cmsmcq
15:00:23 <cmsmcq> ScribeOptions:  -nodraft
15:00:25 <cmsmcq> RRSAgent, please make minutes
15:00:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/30-ixml-minutes.html cmsmcq
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