IRC log of ixml on 2024-04-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:26:15 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/04/30-ixml-irc
13:26:25 [cmsmcq]
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Meeting: Invisible XML Community Group
13:27:21 [cmsmcq]
Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/04/16-ixml-minutes
13:27:59 [cmsmcq]
Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2024Apr/0011.html
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13:29:51 [RRSAgent]
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Scribe: Michael Sperberg-McQueen
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13:35:33 [cmsmcq]
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13:54:37 [Steven]
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13:55:28 [Steven]
rrsagent, here
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See https://www.w3.org/2024/04/30-ixml-irc#T13-55-28
13:56:41 [norm]
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Present: John Lumley, Steven Pemberton, Michael Sperberg-McQueen, Bethan Tovey-Walsh, Norm Tovey-Walsh
14:01:39 [cmsmcq]
Action 2023-01-10-f continues.
14:01:52 [john]
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14:02:16 [cmsmcq]
Action 2024-03-05-c shows progress - using ssh is better, for github, than using http.
14:02:40 [cmsmcq]
Action 2024-03-19-a is awaiting work by Norm.
14:02:57 [cmsmcq]
Action 2024-04-16-a continues.
14:03:20 [cmsmcq]
Action 2024-04-16-d is done.
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Action 2024-04-16-e is done.
14:03:49 [cmsmcq]
Other actions are continuing.
14:04:12 [cmsmcq]
Topic: Status of implementations
14:04:14 [cmsmcq]
Nothing to report.
14:04:31 [cmsmcq]
Topic: Round-tripping
14:05:06 [cmsmcq]
John asks for info from Steven's paper on round-tripping for Prague, to mention it in his round-tripping paper for Balisage.
14:05:35 [cmsmcq]
Topic: Status of testing and test suites
14:05:38 [cmsmcq]
Nothing to report.
14:06:08 [cmsmcq]
Topic: Version numbers
14:06:44 [norm]
https://invisiblexml.org/pr/243/index.html#L3041
14:06:48 [cmsmcq]
Pull request #243 is Norm's attempt to improve the situation, although it does not attempt to resolve all issues.
14:07:40 [norm]
https://invisiblexml.org/pr/243/autodiff.html#L3041
14:08:50 [cmsmcq]
John: so the upshot is that under these rules, a processor supporting renaming is no longer required to require a version 1.1 declaration.
14:08:54 [cmsmcq]
Norm: yes.
14:09:38 [cmsmcq]
Norm proposes to take another action to work on ixml:state.
14:10:19 [cmsmcq]
At the least, 'version-mismatch' is a clumsy term. Perhaps you need to say which version you actually used.
14:11:00 [cmsmcq]
John: no good to say "we ran it under some other version" without telling you what you ran it under.
14:11:25 [cmsmcq]
Bethan: and the name ixml:state is not a great match for this meaning.
14:11:38 [cmsmcq]
Steven: yes, it started simple and we have put a lot more into it.
14:11:57 [cmsmcq]
Norm muses on a possible separate attribute like, say, ixml:version to say what version was used.
14:14:37 [cmsmcq]
ACTION: Norm to propose wording for possible changes to status reporting.
14:15:51 [cmsmcq]
Discussion over whether the presence of an ixml:* attribute is always / still an indicator that something did not run cleanly.
14:16:26 [cmsmcq]
MSM thinks reporting which version was used for an unlabeled grammar is not a sign that something didn't run cleanly.
14:16:44 [cmsmcq]
Norm suggests that perhaps it's just the presence of ixml:state that indicates something a bit off.
14:16:57 [Steven]
I think that if you don't specify a number, you don't care, and so shouldn;t get an "error"
14:17:05 [Steven]
s/;/'/
14:17:34 [cmsmcq]
RESOLVED: to merge PR #243.
14:18:04 [cmsmcq]
Issue #237 can now be closed.
14:18:39 [cmsmcq]
Issue #238 can now be closed.
14:20:46 [cmsmcq]
Topic: Issue #236 When must version numbers change?
14:21:53 [cmsmcq]
Steven suggests that when new syntax is allowed, no version number change is needed. A down-version processor will reject the new syntax on purely syntactic grounds.
14:28:03 [cmsmcq]
Discussion of what "no version number is needed" means.
14:28:33 [cmsmcq]
Steven is considering the question "when does a grammar need to declare its version number?"
14:29:05 [cmsmcq]
He is not proposing that we not use a new version number on the specification.
14:31:02 [cmsmcq]
John suggests thinking about what language(s) a grammar is a sentence in.
14:32:04 [cmsmcq]
To take a concrete example, a grammar that uses renaming will be a member of L(1.1) but not of L(1.0).
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A grammar that does not use renaming will be a member of both.
14:37:21 [cmsmcq]
MSM attempts to summarize our consensus:
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... If the set of strings accepted by the specification grammar does not change,
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... and the XML structures to which they are mapped do not change,
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... and the meaning of those structures does not change,
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... then a revision of the spec need not carry a new version number.
14:38:42 [cmsmcq]
If any of those things change, the spec requires a new version number.
14:38:56 [cmsmcq]
No version number is required on the input grammar.
14:39:32 [cmsmcq]
Including it will assist clarification / diagnosis of problems.
14:40:06 [cmsmcq]
Omitting a version number in the input grammar will lead the processor to process the grammar using some version. If the string is accepted,
14:41:21 [cmsmcq]
... and the meaning has not changed, the user will be happy.
14:41:32 [cmsmcq]
If the meaning has changed, the user may or may not be happy.
14:41:59 [cmsmcq]
ACTION: Bethan to open an issue on whether to distinguish 'major' from 'minor' versions.
14:43:10 [cmsmcq]
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14:43:11 [RRSAgent]
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14:44:29 [cmsmcq]
RESOLVED: close issue #236 on the basis indicated.
14:45:04 [cmsmcq]
(Steven points out that this resolution is not about what he thought #236 was about in the first place, but is willing to close #236.)
14:45:31 [cmsmcq]
Topic: Any other business
14:45:51 [cmsmcq]
Norm and Steven are going to Prague, but no one else is planning to be there.
14:46:21 [cmsmcq]
Steven reports that John Chelsom's City EHR health records system is being rolled out in Ukraine.
14:47:21 [cmsmcq]
John Chelsom is of course looking for volunteers to help on this open-source problems.
14:48:56 [cmsmcq]
We agreed to cancel the meeting of 14 May (conflict for NTW and MSM).
14:49:03 [cmsmcq]
Next meeting 28 May.
14:49:30 [cmsmcq]
John Lumley offers regrets for 28 May.
14:49:39 [cmsmcq]
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14:49:40 [RRSAgent]
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14:49:59 [cmsmcq]
Chair: Steven Pemberton
14:50:38 [cmsmcq]
s/MSM thinks reporting/... MSM thinks reporting/
14:50:40 [cmsmcq]
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14:50:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/30-ixml-minutes.html cmsmcq
14:51:07 [cmsmcq]
s/... MSM thinks reporting/MSM thinks reporting/
14:51:10 [cmsmcq]
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14:59:58 [cmsmcq]
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15:00:02 [cmsmcq]
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15:00:23 [cmsmcq]
ScribeOptions: -nodraft
15:00:25 [cmsmcq]
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15:00:27 [RRSAgent]
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