IRC log of i18n on 2024-04-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:53:21 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #i18n
13:53:25 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/04/25-i18n-irc
13:53:30 [addison]
zakim, who is here?
13:53:30 [Zakim]
Present: Addison, Atsushi, Bert, Richard, Fuqiao
13:53:32 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, addison, r12a, atsushi, Zakim, fantasai, gb, Bert, xfq, Mek, csarven, koji, alastairc, astearns, Rachael, hadleybeeman, eemeli, cwilso, hsivonen, agendabot
13:53:50 [addison]
Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
13:53:54 [addison]
Chair: Addison Phillips
13:54:00 [agendabot]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6d544156-352c-46f2-b6ec-383b4e2462fb/20240425T150000/
13:54:00 [agendabot]
clear agenda
13:54:00 [agendabot]
agenda+ Agenda Review
13:54:00 [agendabot]
agenda+ Action Items
13:54:03 [agendabot]
agenda+ Info Share
13:54:05 [agendabot]
agenda+ RADAR Review
13:54:07 [agendabot]
agenda+ Pending Issue Review
13:54:10 [agendabot]
agenda+ First draft of Language Negotiation
13:54:12 [agendabot]
agenda+ Glossary Topics
13:54:14 [agendabot]
agenda+ AOB?
13:54:24 [addison]
agenda+ New section about IDNs
13:54:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/25-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:01:31 [JcK]
JcK has joined #i18n
14:01:58 [JcK]
present+ JcK
14:02:04 [addison]
agenda+ CFC: Publish HTML Ruby Markup Extensions FPWD
14:03:19 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 1
14:03:19 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:03:21 [addison]
agenda?
14:04:03 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 2
14:04:03 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:04:21 [xfq]
scribe+ xfq
14:04:23 [addison]
#93
14:04:24 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/93 -> Action 93 create best practices for consumers in string-meta (on aphillips) due 2024-04-25
14:04:37 [addison]
#92
14:04:37 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/92 -> Action 92 fix the rfc3066bis page (on xfq) due 2024-04-25
14:04:50 [addison]
close #92
14:04:52 [gb]
Closed -> issue #92 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/92
14:05:08 [addison]
#91
14:05:09 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/91 -> Action 91 respond to i18n-activity#1846 (malformed bidi in HTML) (on aphillips) due 2024-04-25
14:05:29 [addison]
close #91
14:05:30 [gb]
Closed -> issue #91 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/91
14:05:31 [addison]
#90
14:05:31 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/90 -> Action 90 steal some of henri's text from scroll-to-text-fragment for string-search (on aphillips) due 2024-04-18
14:05:37 [addison]
#89
14:05:38 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/89 -> Action 89 update i18n specs to support dark mode (on xfq) due 2024-04-18
14:05:58 [addison]
fuqiao: few issues in tr-design and respec. in progrss
14:06:08 [addison]
#87
14:06:09 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/87 -> Action 87 write to IETF ADs about RFC9457 with JcK's assistance (on aphillips) due 2024-04-04
14:06:30 [addison]
#79
14:06:30 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/79 -> Action 79 schedule a follow-up call with WHATNOT in ~April (on aphillips) due 2024-03-07
14:06:58 [addison]
#78
14:06:59 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/78 -> Action 78 compare infra to i18n-glossary export list and report back (on aphillips) due 2024-03-07
14:07:06 [addison]
#77
14:07:07 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/77 -> Action 77 create an issue against html requesting the list of named entities based on work in action 73 (on r12a) due 2024-03-07
14:08:16 [addison]
close #77
14:08:17 [gb]
Closed -> issue #77 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/77
14:08:25 [addison]
#75
14:08:25 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/75 -> Action 75 work on developing new specdev material about IDNs/domain names/etc. (on xfq) due 2024-02-29
14:08:46 [addison]
close #75
14:08:48 [gb]
Closed -> issue #75 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/75
14:08:53 [addison]
#43
14:08:54 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/43 -> Action 43 pull together the list of win/mac/etc apis for setting base direction and/or language (on aphillips) due 2023-09-18
14:09:31 [addison]
#33
14:09:32 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/33 -> Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG for further review (on aphillips)
14:09:50 [addison]
#12
14:09:51 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/12 -> Action 12 Upgrade/edit the explainer to address issues raised by google (on aphillips) due 18 Jul 2023
14:10:15 [addison]
#8
14:10:15 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/8 -> Action 8 Follow up on the status of Canvas and formatted text (on aphillips) due 18 Jul 2023
14:10:19 [addison]
#7
14:10:20 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/7 -> Action 7 Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting comment resolutions (Evergreen) (on aphillips, xfq, himorin, r12a, bert-github) due 18 Jul 2023
14:10:33 [addison]
#4
14:10:33 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/4 -> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on r12a) due 27 Jul 2023
14:11:00 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 3
14:11:00 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:11:35 [xfq]
JcK: IETF comment
14:11:53 [xfq]
... the AD @@1
14:12:23 [xfq]
... I did asked a question about @@ BCP 14
14:12:45 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 4
14:12:45 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:12:55 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1
14:13:19 [xfq]
addison: Bert, how is Pointer Events Level 3 coming?
14:13:28 [xfq]
Bert: not done yet
14:13:37 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 5
14:13:37 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- Pending Issue Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:13:44 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Apending
14:14:35 [addison]
i18n-activity#1841
14:14:36 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1841 -> Issue 1841 Request for additional named entities for invisible/ambiguous characters (by r12a) [pending] [s:html] [t:char_ref]
14:14:45 [addison]
agenda?
14:14:54 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 9
14:14:54 [Zakim]
agendum 9 -- New section about IDNs -- taken up [from addison]
14:15:04 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/128
14:15:05 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/128 -> Pull Request 128 New section about IDNs (by xfq)
14:15:31 [xfq]
https://deploy-preview-128--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#resid_misc
14:15:46 [xfq]
https://deploy-preview-128--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#idn
14:16:49 [addison]
xfq: changed first one to point to idna2008
14:17:05 [addison]
... annevk made some comments, pointing to URL spec and maybe unicode's TR
14:17:09 [xfq]
https://url.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-domain-to-ascii
14:17:22 [addison]
... in the URL spec there is this link ^^
14:17:35 [addison]
... that refers to UTS46 with some flags set
14:17:38 [addison]
q+
14:17:59 [addison]
jck: let me try to summarize
14:18:24 [xfq]
JcK: using IDNA by way of UTS 46 started out by contradicting IDNA 2008 and it's gotten worse
14:18:25 [addison]
... using idna by way of uts46 (which somewhat conflicts)
14:19:08 [xfq]
... this request makes no sense
14:19:14 [xfq]
... yes, there are caveats
14:19:26 [addison]
ack next
14:19:32 [xfq]
... but basically we're in a situation where we have different standards
14:19:44 [xfq]
... I don't know what to suggest doing
14:19:59 [xfq]
... I can sit down and review but I don't have the time now
14:20:26 [xfq]
... from a WHATWG standpoint, it definitely makes perfect sense
14:20:34 [xfq]
... but that's not consistent
14:20:41 [xfq]
addison: making a couple observations
14:20:48 [xfq]
... first is just a stylistic thing
14:20:53 [xfq]
... you have 2119 keywords
14:21:01 [xfq]
... should and should not should be capiitalized
14:21:21 [xfq]
... I think we don't actually have to weigh into some of these religious arguments
14:21:44 [xfq]
... because I think it would be non-controversial to say replace any references to 2003 with 2008
14:21:52 [xfq]
... I think it's good guidance
14:22:07 [xfq]
... the second one is to not refer to Punycode because it's incomplete
14:22:16 [xfq]
... the URL spec is maybe good for what browsers do
14:22:34 [xfq]
... but is incomplete because it does not cover all of URI
14:23:04 [xfq]
... and the UTS 46 thing is just somebody needs to @@
14:23:35 [xfq]
JcK: saying this less rather than more is probably a reasonable short-term strategy
14:24:21 [xfq]
addison: I was gonna suggest maybe we could just describe what the situation is
14:24:53 [xfq]
... xfq started this because we encountered people referring to Punycode
14:25:39 [addison]
action: xfq: send jck the text from proposed idn section to jck for suggestions
14:25:48 [gb]
Created -> action #94 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/94
14:25:51 [addison]
agenda?
14:26:01 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 10
14:26:01 [Zakim]
agendum 10 -- CFC: Publish HTML Ruby Markup Extensions FPWD -- taken up [from addison]
14:26:25 [addison]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2024AprJun/0022.html
14:26:35 [addison]
https://w3c.github.io/html-ruby/
14:26:49 [addison]
https://www.w3.org/2022/02/ruby-agreement
14:26:54 [xfq]
r12a: it's the stuff Florian has been working on
14:26:55 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/htmlwg/issues/26
14:26:56 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/htmlwg/issues/26 -> Issue 26 CFC: Publish HTML Ruby Markup Extensions FPWD (by LJWatson)
14:27:07 [xfq]
... the i18n WG should review
14:27:27 [xfq]
addison: which one of these is the document?
14:27:36 [xfq]
r12a: I haven't checked it yet
14:27:51 [xfq]
atsushi: this is for the W3C HTML WG
14:27:59 [xfq]
... independent from WHATWG
14:28:29 [xfq]
... this matches the CSS Ruby spec
14:28:45 [xfq]
r12a: we tried to get it directly into the HTML Standard
14:28:57 [xfq]
... the conclusion was that we would publish this document
14:29:08 [xfq]
... and we would put everything into the HTML Standard
14:29:37 [xfq]
... it's a FPWD of a document that's been around for like 10 years or something
14:30:59 [xfq]
atsushi: per WHATWG and W3C MoU, the HTML WG has been working on this in the past 2 years
14:31:12 [xfq]
addison: but we should endorse this, right?
14:31:17 [Bert]
+1
14:31:18 [xfq]
atsushi: I think so
14:31:20 [addison]
+1
14:31:20 [r12a]
+1
14:31:21 [atsushi]
+1
14:31:21 [xfq]
<xfq> +1
14:31:25 [JcK]
+1
14:31:46 [addison]
RESOLVED: I18N WG endorses FPWD publication of HTML Ruby Markup Extensions
14:32:11 [addison]
action: addison: write endorsement of html ruby markup extensions
14:32:12 [gb]
Created -> action #95 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/95
14:32:16 [addison]
agenda?
14:32:26 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 6
14:32:26 [Zakim]
agendum 6 -- First draft of Language Negotiation -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:32:42 [addison]
https://github.com/aphillips/i18n-drafts/blob/gh-pages/tutorials/language-negotiation/language-negotiation.md
14:32:52 [addison]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2024AprJun/0017.html
14:33:12 [xfq]
addison: I have created a first draft of a document about language negotiation
14:33:20 [xfq]
... I welcome comments
14:34:08 [xfq]
Bert: it mentions IP address as a way of finding the user's location
14:34:22 [xfq]
... I think there might be a note saying that is very unreliable
14:34:27 [xfq]
addison: yes
14:35:02 [xfq]
r12a: how are you gonna publish this? as an article?
14:35:26 [xfq]
addison: currently parked under tutorials, but it doesn't have to stay there
14:35:32 [xfq]
r12a: no it shouldn't
14:35:45 [xfq]
... we use the term 'tutorial' term different
14:36:17 [xfq]
... we have lots of articles that teaches stuff
14:36:24 [xfq]
... but they're articles, not tutorials
14:36:37 [xfq]
... we have tutorials that contains a series of links
14:36:45 [xfq]
... for a larger view of a topic
14:36:55 [xfq]
... go and read this and this and this
14:37:06 [xfq]
... so this would be an article
14:37:22 [xfq]
addison: I created a markdown page
14:37:28 [xfq]
... I think it's easier to review
14:37:56 [xfq]
r12a: is there a reason you didn't use GitHub Discussions?
14:38:44 [addison]
```suggestion
14:39:02 [xfq]
addison: because I want to be a little bit formal
14:39:47 [xfq]
addison: it's an early working draft
14:40:06 [xfq]
... quicker than making the HTML and being super formal
14:40:35 [xfq]
r12a: when you do the pre-HTML version, then use Discussions for that
14:40:40 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/pull/581
14:40:40 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/pull/581 -> Pull Request 581 Initial work on language-negotiation materials (by aphillips)
14:40:52 [xfq]
addison: there is a PR against the w3c repo
14:40:57 [xfq]
... see ^
14:41:03 [xfq]
... you can comment on the markdown
14:42:30 [xfq]
... I'll move this from tutorials to articles
14:42:41 [xfq]
... comments are welcome
14:42:45 [addison]
agenda?
14:43:13 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 7
14:43:13 [Zakim]
agendum 7 -- Glossary Topics -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:43:38 [addison]
i18n-glossary#76
14:43:39 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/issues/76 -> Issue 76 Errors in definition of orthographic syllable (by NorbertLindenberg) [bug]
14:43:59 [xfq]
addison: Norbert filed an issue
14:44:14 [xfq]
... about "orthographic syllable" vs "typographic character unit"
14:45:06 [xfq]
r12a: the second point about "one or more grapheme clusters" should definitely be fixed
14:45:15 [xfq]
https://unicode.org/glossary/#orthographic_syllable
14:47:08 [xfq]
r12a: for his first paragraph
14:47:20 [xfq]
... those 2 specific examples are exceptions to the rule
14:47:28 [xfq]
... but the rule covers a vast amount of stuff
14:48:06 [xfq]
addison: do you want an action to work on fixing this?
14:48:19 [xfq]
r12a: yes, but it will take me a little while
14:48:21 [addison]
action: richard: evaluate and where necessary fix i18n-glossary#76
14:48:24 [gb]
Created -> action #96 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/96
14:48:48 [r12a]
#76 note https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/issues/76
14:48:49 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/issues/76 -> Issue 76 Errors in definition of orthographic syllable (by NorbertLindenberg) [bug]
14:48:49 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/76 -> CLOSED Action 76 propose best practices for producers and for examples in specs in string-meta (on aphillips) due 2024-03-07
14:49:30 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 8
14:49:31 [Zakim]
agendum 8 -- AOB? -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:50:02 [r12a]
#96 note https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/issues/76
14:50:03 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/96 -> Action 96 evaluate and where necessary fix i18n-glossary#76 (on r12a) due 2024-05-02
14:50:35 [r12a]
note #76 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/issues/76
14:50:38 [gb]
Added -> comment https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/76#issuecomment-2077433577
14:51:12 [r12a]
note #96 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/issues/76
14:51:14 [gb]
Added -> comment https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/96#issuecomment-2077435542
14:51:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/25-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:52:26 [gb]
gb has joined #i18n