13:53:21 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 13:53:25 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/04/25-i18n-irc 13:53:30 zakim, who is here? 13:53:30 Present: Addison, Atsushi, Bert, Richard, Fuqiao 13:53:32 On IRC I see RRSAgent, addison, r12a, atsushi, Zakim, fantasai, gb, Bert, xfq, Mek, csarven, koji, alastairc, astearns, Rachael, hadleybeeman, eemeli, cwilso, hsivonen, agendabot 13:53:50 Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference 13:53:54 Chair: Addison Phillips 13:54:00 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6d544156-352c-46f2-b6ec-383b4e2462fb/20240425T150000/ 13:54:00 clear agenda 13:54:00 agenda+ Agenda Review 13:54:00 agenda+ Action Items 13:54:03 agenda+ Info Share 13:54:05 agenda+ RADAR Review 13:54:07 agenda+ Pending Issue Review 13:54:10 agenda+ First draft of Language Negotiation 13:54:12 agenda+ Glossary Topics 13:54:14 agenda+ AOB? 13:54:24 agenda+ New section about IDNs 13:54:37 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/25-i18n-minutes.html addison 14:01:31 JcK has joined #i18n 14:01:58 present+ JcK 14:02:04 agenda+ CFC: Publish HTML Ruby Markup Extensions FPWD 14:03:19 zakim, take up agendum 1 14:03:19 agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:03:21 agenda? 14:04:03 zakim, take up agendum 2 14:04:03 agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:04:21 scribe+ xfq 14:04:23 #93 14:04:24 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/93 -> Action 93 create best practices for consumers in string-meta (on aphillips) due 2024-04-25 14:04:37 #92 14:04:37 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/92 -> Action 92 fix the rfc3066bis page (on xfq) due 2024-04-25 14:04:50 close #92 14:04:52 Closed -> issue #92 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/92 14:05:08 #91 14:05:09 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/91 -> Action 91 respond to i18n-activity#1846 (malformed bidi in HTML) (on aphillips) due 2024-04-25 14:05:29 close #91 14:05:30 Closed -> issue #91 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/91 14:05:31 #90 14:05:31 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/90 -> Action 90 steal some of henri's text from scroll-to-text-fragment for string-search (on aphillips) due 2024-04-18 14:05:37 #89 14:05:38 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/89 -> Action 89 update i18n specs to support dark mode (on xfq) due 2024-04-18 14:05:58 fuqiao: few issues in tr-design and respec. in progrss 14:06:08 #87 14:06:09 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/87 -> Action 87 write to IETF ADs about RFC9457 with JcK's assistance (on aphillips) due 2024-04-04 14:06:30 #79 14:06:30 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/79 -> Action 79 schedule a follow-up call with WHATNOT in ~April (on aphillips) due 2024-03-07 14:06:58 #78 14:06:59 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/78 -> Action 78 compare infra to i18n-glossary export list and report back (on aphillips) due 2024-03-07 14:07:06 #77 14:07:07 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/77 -> Action 77 create an issue against html requesting the list of named entities based on work in action 73 (on r12a) due 2024-03-07 14:08:16 close #77 14:08:17 Closed -> issue #77 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/77 14:08:25 #75 14:08:25 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/75 -> Action 75 work on developing new specdev material about IDNs/domain names/etc. (on xfq) due 2024-02-29 14:08:46 close #75 14:08:48 Closed -> issue #75 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/75 14:08:53 #43 14:08:54 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/43 -> Action 43 pull together the list of win/mac/etc apis for setting base direction and/or language (on aphillips) due 2023-09-18 14:09:31 #33 14:09:32 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/33 -> Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG for further review (on aphillips) 14:09:50 #12 14:09:51 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/12 -> Action 12 Upgrade/edit the explainer to address issues raised by google (on aphillips) due 18 Jul 2023 14:10:15 #8 14:10:15 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/8 -> Action 8 Follow up on the status of Canvas and formatted text (on aphillips) due 18 Jul 2023 14:10:19 #7 14:10:20 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/7 -> Action 7 Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting comment resolutions (Evergreen) (on aphillips, xfq, himorin, r12a, bert-github) due 18 Jul 2023 14:10:33 #4 14:10:33 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/4 -> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on r12a) due 27 Jul 2023 14:11:00 zakim, take up agendum 3 14:11:00 agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:11:35 JcK: IETF comment 14:11:53 ... the AD @@1 14:12:23 ... I did asked a question about @@ BCP 14 14:12:45 zakim, take up agendum 4 14:12:45 agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:12:55 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1 14:13:19 addison: Bert, how is Pointer Events Level 3 coming? 14:13:28 Bert: not done yet 14:13:37 zakim, take up agendum 5 14:13:37 agendum 5 -- Pending Issue Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:13:44 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Apending 14:14:35 i18n-activity#1841 14:14:36 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1841 -> Issue 1841 Request for additional named entities for invisible/ambiguous characters (by r12a) [pending] [s:html] [t:char_ref] 14:14:45 agenda? 14:14:54 zakim, take up agendum 9 14:14:54 agendum 9 -- New section about IDNs -- taken up [from addison] 14:15:04 https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/128 14:15:05 https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/128 -> Pull Request 128 New section about IDNs (by xfq) 14:15:31 https://deploy-preview-128--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#resid_misc 14:15:46 https://deploy-preview-128--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#idn 14:16:49 xfq: changed first one to point to idna2008 14:17:05 ... annevk made some comments, pointing to URL spec and maybe unicode's TR 14:17:09 https://url.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-domain-to-ascii 14:17:22 ... in the URL spec there is this link ^^ 14:17:35 ... that refers to UTS46 with some flags set 14:17:38 q+ 14:17:59 jck: let me try to summarize 14:18:24 JcK: using IDNA by way of UTS 46 started out by contradicting IDNA 2008 and it's gotten worse 14:18:25 ... using idna by way of uts46 (which somewhat conflicts) 14:19:08 ... this request makes no sense 14:19:14 ... yes, there are caveats 14:19:26 ack next 14:19:32 ... but basically we're in a situation where we have different standards 14:19:44 ... I don't know what to suggest doing 14:19:59 ... I can sit down and review but I don't have the time now 14:20:26 ... from a WHATWG standpoint, it definitely makes perfect sense 14:20:34 ... but that's not consistent 14:20:41 addison: making a couple observations 14:20:48 ... first is just a stylistic thing 14:20:53 ... you have 2119 keywords 14:21:01 ... should and should not should be capiitalized 14:21:21 ... I think we don't actually have to weigh into some of these religious arguments 14:21:44 ... because I think it would be non-controversial to say replace any references to 2003 with 2008 14:21:52 ... I think it's good guidance 14:22:07 ... the second one is to not refer to Punycode because it's incomplete 14:22:16 ... the URL spec is maybe good for what browsers do 14:22:34 ... but is incomplete because it does not cover all of URI 14:23:04 ... and the UTS 46 thing is just somebody needs to @@ 14:23:35 JcK: saying this less rather than more is probably a reasonable short-term strategy 14:24:21 addison: I was gonna suggest maybe we could just describe what the situation is 14:24:53 ... xfq started this because we encountered people referring to Punycode 14:25:39 action: xfq: send jck the text from proposed idn section to jck for suggestions 14:25:48 Created -> action #94 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/94 14:25:51 agenda? 14:26:01 zakim, take up agendum 10 14:26:01 agendum 10 -- CFC: Publish HTML Ruby Markup Extensions FPWD -- taken up [from addison] 14:26:25 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2024AprJun/0022.html 14:26:35 https://w3c.github.io/html-ruby/ 14:26:49 https://www.w3.org/2022/02/ruby-agreement 14:26:54 r12a: it's the stuff Florian has been working on 14:26:55 https://github.com/w3c/htmlwg/issues/26 14:26:56 https://github.com/w3c/htmlwg/issues/26 -> Issue 26 CFC: Publish HTML Ruby Markup Extensions FPWD (by LJWatson) 14:27:07 ... the i18n WG should review 14:27:27 addison: which one of these is the document? 14:27:36 r12a: I haven't checked it yet 14:27:51 atsushi: this is for the W3C HTML WG 14:27:59 ... independent from WHATWG 14:28:29 ... this matches the CSS Ruby spec 14:28:45 r12a: we tried to get it directly into the HTML Standard 14:28:57 ... the conclusion was that we would publish this document 14:29:08 ... and we would put everything into the HTML Standard 14:29:37 ... it's a FPWD of a document that's been around for like 10 years or something 14:30:59 atsushi: per WHATWG and W3C MoU, the HTML WG has been working on this in the past 2 years 14:31:12 addison: but we should endorse this, right? 14:31:17 +1 14:31:18 atsushi: I think so 14:31:20 +1 14:31:20 +1 14:31:21 +1 14:31:21 +1 14:31:25 +1 14:31:46 RESOLVED: I18N WG endorses FPWD publication of HTML Ruby Markup Extensions 14:32:11 action: addison: write endorsement of html ruby markup extensions 14:32:12 Created -> action #95 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/95 14:32:16 agenda? 14:32:26 zakim, take up agendum 6 14:32:26 agendum 6 -- First draft of Language Negotiation -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:32:42 https://github.com/aphillips/i18n-drafts/blob/gh-pages/tutorials/language-negotiation/language-negotiation.md 14:32:52 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2024AprJun/0017.html 14:33:12 addison: I have created a first draft of a document about language negotiation 14:33:20 ... I welcome comments 14:34:08 Bert: it mentions IP address as a way of finding the user's location 14:34:22 ... I think there might be a note saying that is very unreliable 14:34:27 addison: yes 14:35:02 r12a: how are you gonna publish this? as an article? 14:35:26 addison: currently parked under tutorials, but it doesn't have to stay there 14:35:32 r12a: no it shouldn't 14:35:45 ... we use the term 'tutorial' term different 14:36:17 ... we have lots of articles that teaches stuff 14:36:24 ... but they're articles, not tutorials 14:36:37 ... we have tutorials that contains a series of links 14:36:45 ... for a larger view of a topic 14:36:55 ... go and read this and this and this 14:37:06 ... so this would be an article 14:37:22 addison: I created a markdown page 14:37:28 ... I think it's easier to review 14:37:56 r12a: is there a reason you didn't use GitHub Discussions? 14:38:44 ```suggestion 14:39:02 addison: because I want to be a little bit formal 14:39:47 addison: it's an early working draft 14:40:06 ... quicker than making the HTML and being super formal 14:40:35 r12a: when you do the pre-HTML version, then use Discussions for that 14:40:40 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/pull/581 14:40:40 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/pull/581 -> Pull Request 581 Initial work on language-negotiation materials (by aphillips) 14:40:52 addison: there is a PR against the w3c repo 14:40:57 ... see ^ 14:41:03 ... you can comment on the markdown 14:42:30 ... I'll move this from tutorials to articles 14:42:41 ... comments are welcome 14:42:45 agenda? 14:43:13 zakim, take up agendum 7 14:43:13 agendum 7 -- Glossary Topics -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:43:38 i18n-glossary#76 14:43:39 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/issues/76 -> Issue 76 Errors in definition of orthographic syllable (by NorbertLindenberg) [bug] 14:43:59 addison: Norbert filed an issue 14:44:14 ... about "orthographic syllable" vs "typographic character unit" 14:45:06 r12a: the second point about "one or more grapheme clusters" should definitely be fixed 14:45:15 https://unicode.org/glossary/#orthographic_syllable 14:47:08 r12a: for his first paragraph 14:47:20 ... those 2 specific examples are exceptions to the rule 14:47:28 ... but the rule covers a vast amount of stuff 14:48:06 addison: do you want an action to work on fixing this? 14:48:19 r12a: yes, but it will take me a little while 14:48:21 action: richard: evaluate and where necessary fix i18n-glossary#76 14:48:24 Created -> action #96 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/96 14:48:48 #76 note https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/issues/76 14:48:49 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/issues/76 -> Issue 76 Errors in definition of orthographic syllable (by NorbertLindenberg) [bug] 14:48:49 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/76 -> CLOSED Action 76 propose best practices for producers and for examples in specs in string-meta (on aphillips) due 2024-03-07 14:49:30 zakim, take up agendum 8 14:49:31 agendum 8 -- AOB? -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:50:02 #96 note https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/issues/76 14:50:03 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/96 -> Action 96 evaluate and where necessary fix i18n-glossary#76 (on r12a) due 2024-05-02 14:50:35 note #76 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/issues/76 14:50:38 Added -> comment https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/76#issuecomment-2077433577 14:51:12 note #96 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/issues/76 14:51:14 Added -> comment https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/96#issuecomment-2077435542 14:51:55 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/25-i18n-minutes.html addison 15:52:26 gb has joined #i18n