IRC log of aria-apg on 2024-04-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:01:57 [RRSAgent]

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/04/23-aria-apg-irc

18:02:07 [Jem]

rrsagent, make minutes

18:02:08 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/23-aria-apg-minutes.html Jem

18:02:33 [Jem]

Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practice Guide

18:02:46 [jugglinmike]

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18:03:01 [jugglinmike]

present+ jugglinmike

18:03:13 [CoryJoseph]

Present+

18:03:31 [Jem]

https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/April-23%2C-2024-Agenda

18:04:23 [Matt_King]

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18:04:42 [jugglinmike]

scribe+ jugglinmike

18:05:00 [jugglinmike]

Topic: Setup and Review Agenda

18:05:07 [jugglinmike]

Jem: Next meeting will be April 30

18:05:15 [jugglinmike]

Jem: Any requests for changes to the agenda?

18:05:21 [jugglinmike]

Jem: Hearing none, we'll move on

18:05:26 [jugglinmike]

Topic: Publication status

18:06:02 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: Shawn and I will be travelling for AccessU

18:06:18 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: So it will be hard to choose a specific time for that week

18:06:39 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: Maybe the best decision is to work on getting everything ready by May 7th, and then just check in with Shawn if that doesn't work out for some reason

18:06:58 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I don't think we have to be very particular about the day of the week, so Shawn can fit it in some time during the week of the 14th

18:07:17 [jugglinmike]

dmontalvo: I support that. It will help dramatically if we can have a publication ready for May 7th

18:07:44 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: The pull request that I really want to get landed is the one related to "Feed"

18:07:54 [Jem]

https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/milestone/31

18:08:46 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2775

18:08:57 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I'd like to get that done within the next two weeks

18:09:20 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: Same goes for this pull request concerning skipTo https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2975

18:09:42 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: Only howard-e has looked at that, so we might want someone to do a visual design review--just to ensure that there are no regressions

18:10:26 [jugglinmike]

Jem: I can do that review. I'll assign myself

18:10:30 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: Awesome

18:10:36 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: And thanks to howard-e for the code review

18:10:43 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I think this is looking good for May 7th

18:11:02 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I'm responsible for https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1611

18:12:04 [jugglinmike]

Subtopic: Coverage and Quality Report: add information about use of forced-colors media query in examples

18:12:09 [jugglinmike]

github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2902

18:12:20 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: We don't have any reviewers assigned here. Is this ready for review?

18:13:04 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: There are some conflicting files in this pull request because we changed how the report date is being generated (now, it's being generated during build instead of when the report is run)

18:14:39 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: Actually, it is only a conflict in the generated file... I wonder, is this a matter of jongund merging the "main" branch into his branch...?

18:17:17 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I would like howard-e to look at this because he recently looked at the quality report stuff and I want to make sure it's all in-line with those other changes

18:17:48 [jugglinmike]

Jem: I've assigned howard-e and added his name to the checklist in the pull request description

18:20:01 [siri]

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18:20:01 [jugglinmike]

Topic: Feed example update

18:20:17 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: We'll skip this because Ariella isn't present today. I'll send an e-mail

18:20:27 [jugglinmike]

Topic: Plans to Enhance High Contrast Support

18:21:03 [siri]

can you please give to join zoom meeting?

18:21:04 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: The first step in this plan is the coverage report

18:21:07 [dmontalvo]

presnt+ dmontalvo

18:21:15 [jugglinmike]

present+ dmontalvo

18:21:42 [Jem]

https://deploy-preview-315--aria-practices.netlify.app/aria/apg/practices/high-contrast/

18:21:42 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I started a draft pull request to start experimenting with some ideas, https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2991

18:21:54 [jugglinmike]

jongund: I can take over from where you left off

18:22:00 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: Thank you!

18:23:07 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: let's get pull request 2902 in shape and delivered, first, than then work on pull request 2991

18:29:01 [jugglinmike]

Topic: Adding a Live regions practice page

18:29:13 [jugglinmike]

github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2989

18:29:14 [Jem]

https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2989

18:29:24 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: We had a pull request that was originally started by Simon

18:29:34 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: It never got finished for a number of reasons

18:29:47 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: And there has recently been more attention given to live regions in ARIA

18:30:11 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: So now seems like the right time to "wake up" this piece of work that has been dormant for five years (since 2019!)

18:30:28 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I created this pull request. The preview doesn't work right now, there are broken links, etc.

18:30:46 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I could continue work on it, but I thought it was a great pull request for someone who wants to get their hands dirty for the first time

18:31:32 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: The first step is to bring the text up to date in terms of linking to the correct places in the APG, fixing the other evident problems in the pull request, and then facilitating a discussion about what SHOULD be on this new page.

18:31:58 [jugglinmike]

Jem: It would be helpful if this had more of a description

18:33:08 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I'd be happy to mentor someone if someone wants to pick this up

18:33:33 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: It includes a link to issue 1027. I don't know if that has a functional preview, but you can at least see the functional content by opening the "files" tab of that pull request

18:34:39 [jugglinmike]

dmontalvo: I can make an attempt. No promises about deadlines, though!

18:35:04 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I thought about raising an issue in ARIA and maybe pulling in one of the people in ARIA

18:35:21 [jugglinmike]

dmontalvo: that's a good idea. ARIA is a larger group, to be sure, so we may find someone there

18:35:25 [Jem]

Now I see what Matt did. https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2989/files

18:35:39 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I think I wanted to do something like that for ARIA Actions, too

18:35:54 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: But if, in the mean time, we could assign this to you, dmontalvo, just to get your initial impressions

18:36:00 [jugglinmike]

dmontalvo: Sure

18:36:34 [jugglinmike]

dmontalvo: This is only about live regions, correct? We're not considering ARIA Notify, yet, right?

18:36:40 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: That's right--not yet

18:37:07 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: For now, anything on ARIA Notify would have to be in the "experimental content" area. But this is not about that

18:37:31 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: We're not getting rid of declarative live regions--not at all. There's no movement in ARIA for anything like that

18:37:46 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I think people will continue to use live regions when content is in the DOM and in a fixed location

18:38:13 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: There are other use cases where the Accessibility Notifications API will come into play

18:38:49 [Jem]

content/practices/live-regions/live-regions-practice.html

18:39:05 [jugglinmike]

Topic: Support for experimental content

18:39:25 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I think we want to skip this topic, as well. I hoped to do more work on this before today's meeting started, but I did not

18:39:42 [Jem]

https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+created%3A%3E2021-08-15+no%3Alabel++sort%3Aupdated-desc

18:39:43 [jugglinmike]

Topic: Other new issues

18:42:23 [jugglinmike]

Subtopic: Default actions on modal dialogs via ENTER key

18:42:27 [jugglinmike]

github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2992

18:43:35 [jugglinmike]

Jem: This person is asking to use the "enter" key for escaping the modal dialog

18:44:42 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: They want to know if we can take the list of default actions in the modal dialog, should we say something about the enter key performing the default action

18:44:53 [jugglinmike]

Jem: What is the default action?

18:45:03 [jugglinmike]

jongund: Typically, it's the "submit"

18:45:26 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I'm personally nervous about pressing "enter" in these situations because I'm not confident what it will do

18:45:38 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: ARIA doesn't have anything related to "default action"

18:46:13 [jugglinmike]

Jem: "Enter key for default action" is a clear scope. But it's not clear what the default action is

18:46:46 [jugglinmike]

CoryJoseph: I never use the default action in a modal, either

18:47:08 [Jem]

s/Enter key for default action/Enter key for submit action

18:47:13 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I think this is why ARIA doesn't include a default action attribute that you can apply to dialogs

18:47:15 [Jem]

s/Enter key for default action/Enter key for submit action/

18:47:36 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: because there's no way of communicating the default action in a web dialog to an end user

18:47:58 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: That's why I feel a little reluctant to say anything at all about default actions in the interactions section of the modal dialog

18:48:06 [jugglinmike]

jongund: Well, it's a browser convention

18:48:26 [jugglinmike]

jongund: You get default action, it looks for the submit button

18:48:43 [jugglinmike]

jongund: If you're in a form, that is

18:49:28 [jugglinmike]

jongund: What does ARIA say about default actions? That you should do it? That you shouldn't do it? That sometimes you should do it?

18:49:45 [jugglinmike]

jongund: Maybe this is beyond the scope of ARIA. It might not be worth saying anything about it in APG

18:50:03 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: If we said something about it, that would suggest that there is a way to define a default action for a dialog

18:50:14 [jugglinmike]

CoryJoseph: Escape closes the dialog

18:50:21 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: That's not a default behavior, though

18:50:27 [jugglinmike]

CoryJoseph: No, it's just a user expectation

18:51:01 [Jem]

Enter key for default action

18:51:03 [jugglinmike]

Jem: I searched the ARIA spec, and there's nothing about default in 1.3. In 1.2, however, there's a comment about it in a note

18:51:50 [jugglinmike]

[Jem reads the notes]

18:51:56 [jugglinmike]

s/notes/note/

18:52:23 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: That is the way that screen readers emulate a mouse click in "reading" mode. It's not related to the default action which we're considering here

18:52:50 [jugglinmike]

CoryJoseph: If there's a form inside the modal, and you have a submit button, then there's a default action

18:52:57 [jugglinmike]

CoryJoseph: Otherwise, there is no default action

18:53:11 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: Does a screen reader ever tell you about the default action in a form...?

18:53:20 [jugglinmike]

CoryJoseph: I don't think so, not even with the most generous hints on

18:53:34 [jugglinmike]

dmontalvo: I think you can get at the default on a Windows desktop app

18:53:40 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: Sure, in a dialog you can

18:53:53 [jugglinmike]

dmontalvo: That may be out of scope for this discussion, though

18:55:12 [jugglinmike]

Jem: I think we're saying "no", and the uncertainty here is the reason

18:56:08 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: Because ARIA does not provide a way of communicating what the default action will be, for us to say how to perform a default action is going beyond the spec.

18:57:42 [Jem]

https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2978

18:59:20 [jugglinmike]

Zakim, end the meeting

18:59:20 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, CoryJoseph, dmontalvo

18:59:22 [Zakim]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2

18:59:24 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/23-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim

18:59:26 [Zakim]

I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye

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RRSAgent, leave

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18:59:47 [jugglinmike]

rrsagent, make log public

19:00:27 [jugglinmike]

RRSAgent, leave

19:00:27 [RRSAgent]

I see no action items