14:02:19 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 14:02:24 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/04/16-i18n-irc 14:02:32 Meeting: I18N ⇔ CSS 14:02:35 present+ 14:02:41 rrsagent, make log public 14:02:45 rrsagent, make minutes 14:02:46 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/16-i18n-minutes.html xfq 14:04:50 present+ florian, fantasai 14:05:01 thanks for the reminder, looking for the link... 14:05:55 present+ r12a 14:06:01 scribe: xfq 14:07:38 Html ruby extension fpwd CFC: https://github.com/w3c/htmlwg/issues/26 14:07:39 https://github.com/w3c/htmlwg/issues/26 -> Issue 26 CFC: Publish HTML Ruby Markup Extensions FPWD (by LJWatson) 14:07:53 florian: in the HTML WG the CfC for publishing the HTML Ruby Markup Extensions spec just went out today 14:07:56 ... link ^ 14:08:28 https://w3c.github.io/html-ruby/ 14:11:02 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5478 14:11:03 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5478 -> Issue 5478 [css-content] Quote character choice must depend on surrounding language, not language of the quotation (by r12a) [css-content-3] [Closed Accepted by CSSWG Resolution] [i18n-needs-resolution] [Agenda+ i18n] 14:11:38 fantasai: it's been edited and I haven't republished the draft yet 14:12:09 florian: does that include that part needs to go into the UA style sheet, or just the mechanics of it? 14:12:50 florian: make the initial value do the right thing, or make the UA style sheet do the right thing? 14:13:22 fantasai: the only way to do that automatically would be to make the value of the quote property to depend on @@ 14:14:09 ... without a separate selector I don't think it's possible to get it to do the right thing 14:14:34 ... that brings up a question of the selectors might not be the most efficient 14:15:13 florian: @@1 14:15:47 fantasai: if what you're trying to do is as soon as you hit a q element then you lock it down you could do it on any child 14:15:48 q > * { quotes: match-parent; } 14:16:48 xfq: do you mean the author should specify this? 14:17:00 r12a: that's the thing I'm arguing against 14:17:15 ... I don't think the author needs to remember or find out how to make the default expectation 14:17:23 ... and it should happen by default 14:17:26 q { quote: auto-compute-me-now; } /* iherits as string value */ 14:17:55 ... whether that happens because we put something in a style sheet or whether that happens because the initial value 14:18:24 florian: do you think browsers will be happier with @@? 14:18:30 fantasai: I don't know 14:19:08 florian: but you're probably reasonably well-positioned to ask people who would know 14:20:58 xfq: @@ 14:21:23 r12a: it's not supposed to respond to changes in languages further down 14:22:07 fantasai: it's because if you set the initial value to a value on the root element and it computes on the root element rather than inheriting the auto 14:23:45 ... from what I understand, you don't want either of these behaviours 14:24:10 florian: and I think the thing with a selector in the UA style sheet does give us the right behaviour 14:24:23 ... it's just not the kind of thing we typically want to 14:25:55 xfq: what's the next step? 14:26:11 fantasai: we can go back to browser vendors and ask them which approach they want to take here 14:26:45 florian: can we agree on a UA style sheet rule that is the most performant and acceptable we can think of 14:27:22 ... that gives us the behaviour we want and then we tell the browsers are you either willing to implement this or do you have another suggestion? 14:27:55 florian: you want the first q element in the hierarchy 14:28:04 ... lock down every descendant of it 14:28:58 fantasai: right now we have match-parent, but instead of computing against the parent's language it computes against your own language 14:29:09 ... which is match-self 14:29:15

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14:29:49 fantasai: so we have this, what you want here is you want French quotations all the way through 14:29:55 r12a: yeah 14:30:17 florian: the auto keyword means that you pick a quotation system based on the content language of the parent 14:30:33 ... so exactly what we want on the first q element 14:31:11 fantasai: instead of saying it matches the same quotation mark system as the parent, we want a keyword that computes against the parent 14:31:44 ... you can't do that as initial value because it breaks stuff 14:32:05 florian: effectively that's kind of what match-parent does 14:32:47 ... match-parent gets that string from above, while auto doesn't and re-resolves it everywhere 14:33:32 fantasai: what are impls do currently is a good question 14:33:38 florian: they do the wrong thing 14:33:41 auto = resolve against the current element's language 14:34:00 rrsagent, make minutes 14:34:01 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/16-i18n-minutes.html xfq 14:34:12 (and inherit as 'auto', so re-resolve on each element) 14:34:21 match-parent = resolve against the parent eleent's langauge 14:34:34 (and inherit as that string, so don't re-resolve) 14:35:04 florian: when do you ever want to resolve against the current element's language? 14:35:54 fantasai: @@ 14:36:23 florian: from my point of view, the way you have it specified now, is precisely the behaviour you want 14:36:46 ... as far as the q element is concerned 14:37:08 florian: what do you want for blockquote? 14:37:21 florian: possibly the same, but I'm not sure 14:37:37 r12a: I don't think a blockquote is the same thing as a q element 14:37:51 ... I'm just thinking off the top of my head at the moment 14:38:16 ... a blockquote is bit of text that you indented usually 14:39:08 ... the blockquote at the top level would take the quotes of the surrounding language 14:39:18 ... but inside of it, it's different 14:39:29 florian: in that case, we're fine 14:40:24 ... I still think we're on the right behaviour with the spec as it is plus the UA style sheet rule 14:41:11 fantasai: here's a fun wrinkle I think we didn't think about 14:41:40 ... if the quote is not generated by the q element, but by ::before, which is a child of the q element 14:42:44 ... match-parent should use the language tag of the parent to resolve to a string 14:43:49 florian: @@ 14:44:54 ... that's still not good enough, it's good enough to make it work, but we also need to disable that on descendant s 14:46:21 florian: I thought we had the solution, but I forgot the ::before in the child 14:46:58 r12a: I find it very difficult to follow all the stuff you're talking about because I don't know the technical details 14:47:18 florian: I think we really understand the use case that you want to achieve, but it's surprisingly tricky to get there 14:47:19 q { quotes: match-parent; } q q { quotes: inherit; } 14:48:35 fuqiao, here's a link: https://github.com/r12a/mins2issue 14:48:36 fantasai: this is not as bad as an universal selector because q is not very often used 14:49:06 ... even if you have to walk up the parent up to the route every time you hit a queue, you're not gonna hit a q very often 14:49:16 ... so it won't regress most pages probably 14:49:42 florian: we now have a definition that probably works and a selector that's less problematic 14:49:55 ... still not amazing, but probably works 14:50:04 ... maybe we should update the spec 14:50:19 ... and talk with the browser vendors 14:50:27 fantasai: that seems reasonable 14:50:34 ... back to blockquote 14:51:09 florian: maybe it's just parent, not match-parent 14:51:18 fantasai: auto-parent or something like that 14:52:35 florian: we should write it down 14:52:45 fantasai: and ask the browser vendors 14:53:45 florian: I'm curious how often is this something people run into and complained about 14:54:37 xfq: I've seen some real examples in paper books 14:54:47 r12a: I've seen real web pages too 14:55:06 ... I use the q element myself 14:55:21 ... it's really useful for things like translation 14:55:49 ... you don't have to go through all the hard coded quote marks and change them 14:56:16 ... you just change the CSS 14:57:25 close #i18n 14:57:38 close #18 14:57:39 Closed -> issue #18 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/18 14:57:48 s/close #i18n// 14:58:12 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-discuss/issues/11 14:58:12 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-discuss/issues/11 -> Issue 11 Languages / writing systems with 2 line breaking conventions in common use? (by frivoal) 14:58:55 agenda+ lreq doc developments 14:59:06 florian: I think we conlcuded on this one last time 14:59:29 ... and the conclusion was not the one I was hoping for, but that's a conclusion nonetheless 15:00:35 ... some years ago Myles replied to my proposal keep-hangul 15:00:54 ... Myles said this is probably not unique to Korean 15:01:43 ... the i18n research into Ethiopic seems to show that it's not a one langauge problem but a two language problem already 15:01:51 ... it's probably an N language problem 15:02:39 florian: are there context where you may be facing where user generated input in arbitrary languages 15:03:02 ... might be Ethiopic/Korean/Korean so you have to have the value of the property be auto 15:03:50 https://www.w3.org/TR/khmr-lreq/ 15:03:57 Topic: AOB 15:04:36 r12a: I've been working on a FPWD for Khmer lreq 15:04:58 ... originally I copied the stuff I have in my own site into this page 15:05:06 ... but I'm worried about IP issues 15:05:25 ... and it takes a long time to create the pages even though I'm just copying 15:05:35 ... because it's quite a lot of adjustments 15:05:50 ... and I have to matintain the same material in 2 different locations 15:06:11 ... I've stripped out the text that is identical to the sutff in my documents 15:06:15 ... and add a link 15:06:33 fantasai: I have a couple questions 15:07:30 ... first of all, all of the work you're doing under the area of i18n research and documentation is reasonably considered part of your job, you should get paid for that 15:07:52 ... you can ask your manager to increase the amount of time that you're alotted 15:08:09 r12a: I don't want to do that because I want more flexibility 15:09:22 fantasai: the second thing is this presents a bit of risk of what happens many years later when you and your website are not going to be around 15:09:49 ... or or github.io goes down because it's not free anymore 15:11:18 r12a: I want complete control of the information and no obligation to work on the information 15:12:14 rrsagent, make minutes 15:12:16 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/16-i18n-minutes.html xfq 15:30:46 fuqiao, don't forget to use my mins2issue tool - the page to package the information and instructions for use should be available from the link to the repo, but of course ping me if you get stuck