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13:59:21 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-wcag2ict-irc
13:59:22 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:59:23 <Zakim> Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
13:59:23 <maryjom> zakim, clear agenda
13:59:23 <Zakim> agenda cleared
13:59:31 <maryjom> chair: Mary Jo Mueller
14:00:12 <olivia> olivia has joined #wcag2ict
14:00:19 <maryjom> meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
14:00:27 <maryjom> Zakim, please time speakers at 2 minutes
14:00:27 <Zakim> ok, maryjom
14:00:35 <maryjom> Agenda+ Announcements
14:00:42 <maryjom> Agenda+ Status of remaining work before next publication
14:00:46 <olivia> present+
14:00:48 <maryjom> Agenda+ Survey results: Proposals for remaining work
14:00:52 <GreggVan> GreggVan has joined #wcag2ict
14:00:52 <FernandaBonnin> FernandaBonnin has joined #WCAG2ICT
14:01:15 <FernandaBonnin> present+
14:01:22 <loicmn> present+
14:01:48 <shadi> shadi has joined #wcag2ict
14:02:10 <shadi> present+
14:02:40 <Laura_Miller> Still in?
14:02:46 <Chuck> Yes
14:04:02 <Laura_Miller> Laura_Miller has joined #WCAG2ICT
14:04:06 <Mike_Pluke> Mike_Pluke has joined #wcag2ict
14:04:22 <Laura_Miller> Scribe+
14:04:23 <olivia> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/wiki/Scribe-list-&-instructions
14:04:27 <Laura_Miller> Scribe+ Laura_Miller
14:04:41 <maryjom> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/wiki/Scribe-list-&-instructions#instructions
14:05:21 <maryjom> regrets: Phil
14:05:25 <Laura_Miller> Laura_Miller has joined #WCAG2ICT
14:05:37 <Laura_Miller> Scribe+ Laura_Miller
14:06:05 <Sam> Sam has joined #wcag2ict
14:06:20 <Laura_Miller> Present+
14:06:33 <Sam> present+
14:06:44 <Chuck> zakim, take up item 1
14:06:45 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Announcements -- taken up [from maryjom]
14:07:42 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: time difference is all caught up.
14:07:42 <Mike_Pluke> present+
14:07:57 <Chuck> q+
14:08:24 <Laura_Miller> maryjom: before we can review draft as a task force we have a bit of work to do.
14:08:59 <Chuck> ack Ch
14:09:04 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: I opened issues on the last bit of editorial work and clean up on the document.
14:09:12 <Laura_Miller> Chuck: No new information on the horizontal review
14:09:43 <Devanshu> Devanshu has joined #wcag2ict
14:09:58 <Devanshu> present+
14:10:01 <Laura_Miller> Chuck: New IRC client - w3c is aware that there are issues with the new client and they are working the issues. There is an open web page (notes in Tuesday’s meeting) where you can report issues with IRC client. Or send an email to Kevin White.
14:10:10 <Laura_Miller> Chuck: there are accessibility issues being addressed
14:10:51 <Chuck> zakim, take up next item
14:10:51 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Status of remaining work before next publication -- taken up [from maryjom]
14:11:00 <maryjom> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/wiki/Work-left-for-second-public-draft
14:11:34 <Laura_Miller> maryjom: I keep updating this document so that everyone can see what is left to do. A number of things we are surveying once we get the content changes (reflow for example).
14:11:50 <Laura_Miller> maryjom: I have started drafting issues. One issue that we have not completed is issue 4.
14:12:24 <Laura_Miller> maryjom: next week will not have the extra (friday) meeting.
14:12:54 <Laura_Miller> maryjom: will not meet on Monday for the coordination call either.
14:14:09 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: check your information in the contributors section/acknowledgement section to make sure your affiliation is correct and contact info etc.
14:14:58 <Chuck> zakim, take up item 3
14:14:58 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Survey results: Proposals for remaining work -- taken up [from maryjom]
14:15:42 <maryjom> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICTfinishclosed/results
14:16:04 <maryjom> TOPIC: SC Problematic for Closed – 2.1.1 Keyboard
14:16:17 <maryjom> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICTfinishclosed/results#xq5
14:16:18 <ChrisLoiselle> I self fund https://www.irccloud.com/ and have had no errors, as an alternative , just listing here for reference sake.
14:17:43 <maryjom> maryjom has joined #wcag2ict
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14:18:00 <Mike_Pluke> Mike_Pluke has joined #wcag2ict
14:18:12 <Sam> Sam has joined #wcag2ict
14:18:30 <maryjom> DRAFT RESOLUTION: Incorporate option 5 for 2.1.1 Keyboard into the SC Problematic for Closed Functionality section, as-is.
14:18:33 <loicmn> +1
14:18:35 <Devanshu> +1
14:18:37 <Sam> +1
14:18:38 <Mike_Pluke> +1
14:18:41 <Laura_Miller> +1
14:18:43 <FernandaBonnin> +1
14:18:51 <GreggVan> for mac users oh and PC too  --   Textual 7 works great - and continues to work great   https://pcmacstore.com/en/app/1262957439/textual-7#google_vignette
14:18:53 <ChrisLoiselle> +1
14:19:15 <olivia> +1
14:19:20 <maryjom> RESOLUTION: Incorporate option 5 for 2.1.1 Keyboard into the SC Problematic for Closed Functionality section, as-is.
14:19:35 <maryjom> TOPIC: SC Problematic for Closed Functionality – 4.1.3 Status Messages
14:20:02 <maryjom> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICTfinishclosed/results#xq6
14:20:24 <maryjom> DRAFT RESOLUTION: Incorporate option 5 for 2.1.1 Keyboard into the SC Problematic for Closed Functionality section, as-is.
14:20:28 <loicmn> +1
14:20:31 <Sam> +1
14:20:31 <Laura_Miller> +1
14:20:32 <Devanshu> +1
14:20:44 <olivia> +1
14:20:47 <Chuck> present+
14:20:49 <Mike_Pluke> +1
14:20:49 <GreggVan> q+
14:20:56 <Chuck> ack Gregg
14:20:57 <FernandaBonnin> q+
14:21:06 <Mike_Pluke> present+
14:21:26 <ChrisLoiselle> present+
14:21:43 <Chuck> q+ to suggest that an issue be raised
14:22:01 <Laura_Miller> GreggVan: we should be writing a general statement about closed products instead of these individual statements.
14:23:13 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: we are giving examples.
14:24:05 <Laura_Miller> GreggVan: as long as it says programmatically determined, we are in good shape
14:24:20 <Laura_Miller> q=
14:24:22 <Laura_Miller> Q+
14:24:31 <maryjom> q?
14:24:37 <Chuck> ack Fern
14:24:37 <maryjom> ack FernandaBonnin
14:24:44 <Sam> Sam has joined #wcag2ict
14:24:47 <dmontalvo> s|(notes in Tuesday’s meeting)|https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BMEOIEzKOSCsdMvOiB62o5qxQtk-mS-XGL6_HRmGodA/edit#heading=h.8hihtwl9wwm2|
14:24:48 <maryjom> ack Chuck
14:24:49 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to suggest that an issue be raised
14:24:58 <Sam> q+
14:25:13 <Laura_Miller> Chuck: I think this is a big and valid concern. We do have consensus on this issue. Recommendation is to have GreggVan raise the issue.
14:25:21 <maryjom> ack Laura_Miller
14:25:22 <Chuck> scribe+ Chuck
14:25:32 <GreggVan> q+
14:25:36 <maryjom> q?
14:25:39 <Chuck> Laura_Miller:  To Gregg, what is the recommended solution?  No examples?  What would Gregg like to see?
14:25:49 <maryjom> ack Sam
14:26:24 <Laura_Miller> Sam: Since we can’t say N/A, this is the best we can do without using N/A.
14:26:39 <Laura_Miller> Sam: It is not comprehensive but it is better than nothing.
14:26:53 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
14:26:58 <Laura_Miller> Sam: It would be good to hear GreggVan’s suggestion for cognitive disability.
14:27:26 <Sam> Sam has joined #wcag2ict
14:27:48 <Laura_Miller> GreggVan: The solution is to take the section on closed products and describe the issues in the beginning.
14:28:00 <Laura_Miller> GreggVan: List those that will have problems.
14:28:43 <Laura_Miller> GreggVan: Instead of saying it multiple times. Say it at the beginning of the section and do not say it repetitively
14:29:41 <Sam> Sam has joined #wcag2ict
14:29:51 <Sam> q+
14:30:11 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom:  I am afraid of undoing everything we have done as well.
14:30:17 <maryjom> ack Sam
14:30:35 <Laura_Miller> Greggvan: I have made this comment 3 times.
14:31:11 <Laura_Miller> Sam: at CSUN there were conversations that lamented the speed at which the w3c releases new standards
14:31:13 <GreggVan> +1\
14:31:36 <Chuck> Chuck has joined #wcag2ict
14:31:43 <Laura_Miller> Sam: there is a real demand for this. I like that GreggVan has mentioned cognitive disabilities but I would not want to redo the helpful and supportive text that is there.
14:32:13 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: it takes it back to 2013 when it was not explanatory. Created problems with the EN tried to apply it.
14:32:15 <Chuck> q+
14:32:23 <Chuck> ack Ch
14:32:34 <maryjom> ack sam
14:32:44 <maryjom> q?
14:33:00 <Laura_Miller> Chuck: from what I’m hearing, GreggVan has offered to write up a proposal. The group can respond. Recommendation that we do this on it’s own track. Handle the survey results in front of us now.
14:33:07 <Sam> Sam has joined #wcag2ict
14:33:23 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: back to Status messages.
14:33:33 <maryjom> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICTfinishclosed/results#xq5
14:33:45 <maryjom> DRAFT RESOLUTION: Incorporate option 4 for 4.1.3 Status Messages into the SC Problematic for Closed Functionality section, as-is
14:33:55 <Sam> +1
14:33:55 <Mike_Pluke> +1
14:33:56 <Laura_Miller> +1
14:33:56 <loicmn> +1
14:33:56 <Devanshu> +1
14:33:58 <FernandaBonnin> +1
14:33:59 <olivia> +1
14:34:00 <ChrisLoiselle> +1
14:34:11 <maryjom> RESOLUTION: Incorporate option 4 for 4.1.3 Status Messages into the SC Problematic for Closed Functionality section, as-is
14:34:47 <maryjom> s/option 4/option 5/
14:35:12 <maryjom> rrsagent, make minutes
14:35:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-wcag2ict-minutes.html maryjom
14:35:33 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:35:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-wcag2ict-minutes.html dmontalvo
14:37:08 <ChrisLoiselle> the original resolution for status message said 4
14:37:16 <Chuck> s/option 5/option 4/
14:37:51 <maryjom> rrsagent, make minutes
14:37:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-wcag2ict-minutes.html maryjom
14:38:47 <maryjom> TOPIC: Question 7: Issue 26: Adjustments to 4.1.1 Parsing to address AG WG concerns
14:39:12 <maryjom> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICTfinishclosed/results#xq7
14:39:35 <GreggVan> q+
14:39:41 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
14:40:16 <Chuck> Chuck has joined #wcag2ict
14:41:32 <Chuck> Laura_Miller:  I don't have answer to Gregg's question of:  4.1.1 was removed from WCAG because browsers do the repair for screen readers.  Does something do the repair for screen readers when it is non web or software?
14:41:35 <Laura_Miller> GreggVan: 4.1.1 was removed from WCAG because browsers do the repair for screen readers. Does something do the repair for screen readers when it is non web or software.
14:42:09 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: I queried a bunch of them and they don’t. They go through the accessibility APIs.
14:42:19 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: The dom is not open for testing.
14:42:32 <Laura_Miller> GreggVan: The APIs all access the dom not the root code?
14:43:18 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: as a tester you don’t have access to the code.
14:43:30 <Laura_Miller> GreggVan: what does the API expose?
14:43:59 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: How can you report against 4.1.1 parsing if you can’t test for it.
14:44:37 <Sam> Sam has joined #wcag2ict
14:45:46 <Laura_Miller> GreggVan: Does it expose the DOM in the html of the email? Or does it feed you to the html markup?
14:46:02 <Laura_Miller> GreggVan: and if it gives you html then the 4.1.1 problem is still there.
14:46:34 <Laura_Miller> GreggVan: I just do not have an idea if email programs act like old accessibility tech.
14:46:40 <Laura_Miller> q+
14:47:01 <maryjom> ack Laura_Miller
14:47:54 <Chuck> Laura_Miller:  Does it matter if there's a text alternative for email?
14:48:10 <dmontalvo> q+
14:49:13 <Chuck> Laura_Miller:  Just responding...  is it required if you have a text alternative?  Text alternatives can be very comprehensive.  You write alt text and provide the links.  If you say the "header says this", you are writing the screen reader code for it in the text alternative.
14:49:43 <Laura_Miller> GreggVan: I will take this on and write this question to our list and see what the response is.
14:49:53 <Chuck> q?
14:50:00 <maryjom> ack dmontalvo
14:50:43 <Laura_Miller> dmontalvo: I would be surprised if the screen readers pull in from DOM. What I’ve seen is UIA API.
14:53:00 <Chuck> q+
14:53:14 <Laura_Miller> GreggVan: I am thinking that the way people are building things, we can possibly ignore this. I will raise the question in email and come back only if this is not true.
14:53:25 <Laura_Miller> GreggVan: we can proceed with the language as is
14:53:27 <Chuck> ack Ch
14:53:35 <maryjom> DRAFT RESOLUTION: Incorporate adjustments to 4.1.1 Parsing general guidance using option 2 and editing to expand DOM
14:53:49 <loicmn> +1
14:53:49 <Mike_Pluke> +1
14:54:02 <Sam> Sam has joined #wcag2ict
14:54:09 <Sam> +1
14:54:10 <Devanshu> +1
14:54:15 <Laura_Miller> +1
14:54:19 <FernandaBonnin> +1
14:54:42 <maryjom> RESOLUTION: Incorporate adjustments to 4.1.1 Parsing general guidance using option 2 and editing to expand DOM
14:55:05 <GreggVan> present+
14:55:40 <Olivia> Olivia has joined #wcag2ict
14:55:43 <maryjom> TOPIC: Question 1: Can a non-web software act as, or have, a conforming alternate version?
14:55:58 <maryjom> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICTfinishclosed/results#xq1
14:56:22 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: we did talk about this last week and did not come to a full resolution.
14:56:42 <Chuck> q+
14:56:51 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: Bruce wants this for regulators. I’m worried this is going beyond our remit.
14:57:14 <Laura_Miller> Q+
14:57:41 <maryjom> ack Chuck
14:57:41 <Laura_Miller> ack chuck
14:57:42 <Chuck> ack Chuck
14:58:03 <Laura_Miller> chuck: I made a comment, I believe that any alterations are going beyond our remit
14:58:09 <maryjom> ack Laura_Miller
14:58:29 <Chuck> Laura_Miller:  Since Bruce isn't here, he wants that "yes" a non-web software have a conforming alternate version?
14:58:58 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: He wants us to do some explanation of this. We currently do not provide guidance about what is and what is not an alternate version.
15:00:55 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: I expressed concern because there may be AI or other things that provide content in a different language (sign language). We didn’t get to it this week. Will resurface next week.
15:01:11 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:01:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-wcag2ict-minutes.html dmontalvo
15:01:18 <maryjom> rrsagent, make minutes
15:01:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-wcag2ict-minutes.html maryjom
16:16:00 <maryjom> maryjom has joined #wcag2ict
16:16:08 <maryjom> zakim, end meeting
16:16:08 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been olivia, FernandaBonnin, loicmn, shadi, Laura_Miller, Sam, Mike_Pluke, Devanshu, Chuck, ChrisLoiselle, GreggVan
16:16:11 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
16:16:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-wcag2ict-minutes.html Zakim
16:16:17 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, maryjom; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:16:18 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag2ict
16:16:19 <maryjom> present+
16:16:26 <maryjom> rrsagent, make minutes
16:16:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-wcag2ict-minutes.html maryjom
16:16:38 <maryjom> rrsagent, bye
16:16:38 <RRSAgent> I see no action items