18:59:23 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-at
18:59:27 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-aria-at-irc
18:59:30 <jugglinmike> rrsagent, make log public
18:59:39 <jugglinmike> rrsagent, make log public
18:59:46 <jugglinmike> Zakim, start the meeting
18:59:46 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
18:59:48 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jugglinmike
19:00:03 <jugglinmike> meeting: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group Weekly Teleconference
19:02:34 <murray_moss> murray_moss has joined #aria-at
19:07:14 <Joe_Humbert> Joe_Humbert has joined #aria-at
19:11:09 <jugglinmike> present+ IsaDC
19:11:17 <jugglinmike> present+ James_Scholes
19:11:30 <Sam> Sam has joined #aria-at
19:11:33 <jugglinmike> present+ Alyssa_Gourley
19:11:37 <jugglinmike> present+ Sam
19:11:47 <jugglinmike> present+ Michael_Fairchild
19:11:59 <jugglinmike> present+ MattKing
19:12:05 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
19:12:08 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
19:12:17 <jugglinmike> Topic: Review agenda and next meeting dates
19:12:29 <jugglinmike> MattKing: No CG meeting on Wednesday, April 10
19:12:38 <jugglinmike> MattKing: Next community group meeting: Thursday April 18
19:12:51 <jugglinmike> MattKing: Next automation subgroup meeting: Monday, April 8
19:13:07 <jugglinmike> s/MattKing/Matt_King/g
19:13:43 <jugglinmike> Topic: Candidate review decisions
19:13:55 <Joe_Humbert> present+
19:13:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We have a goal of six plans in the "Recommended" phase by June 30th
19:14:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We already have two plans in "Candidate review" and two that I think are ready to move to "Candidate review"
19:14:45 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: For "Command button", the testing is complete, so I'm assuming that there would be no objections to advancing that to "Candidate review"
19:14:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: And the same goes for "Toggle Button"
19:15:08 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Any objections?
19:15:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hearing none, we'll advance those, now
19:15:23 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I'm on it
19:16:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think we need to talk with Apple about whether conveying the "alert" role is a "SHOULD" requirement or a "MAY" requirement
19:16:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We're already positioned to move that discussion forward with Vispero and Apple
19:17:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: we have three candidates for the final test plan to target for this milestone: dialog, action menu button, and slider
19:17:52 <jugglinmike> Topic: Radio test plan
19:17:54 <murray_moss> present+ murray_moss
19:18:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: we have a target to complete testing for this by the 10th of this month
19:18:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We have Hadi, Joe, IsaDC, and Alyssa all assigned to this in the test queue
19:18:53 <jugglinmike> Alyssa_Gourley: I noticed that when I went to test this that there was no output pasted in from the bot
19:20:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: that seems to be stuck with responses for 2 tests missing
19:20:44 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: I believe that if you assign the run to yourself and then assign it back to the bot, it will pick up where it left off
19:22:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I started to do this here on the call, but the page became unresponsive, and now, the page won't load at all. Now, I'm getting an "502" error
19:23:08 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Can we get that automated collection job to finish and then assign it to Alyssa_Gourley
19:23:56 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: Sure
19:24:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hadi is assigned on JAWS, and Joe_Humbert is assigned on macOS
19:25:15 <jugglinmike> Hadi: I don't have the exact text in front of me, but when you "tab" to a radio button, JAWS reads the instruction--how to handle the radio--followed by the essential information about the roles, name, and state...
19:25:46 <jugglinmike> Hadi: ...when I am considering "excessive verbosity", I do not know if lowering the verbosity will eliminate that instruction. Does anyone know about that?
19:26:02 <jugglinmike> Hadi: What do folks think about getting the instructions every time you enter a radio group?
19:26:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In the past, we have said that that kind of tutorial material is a design decision by the screen reader and thus completely acceptable
19:27:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: normally, when we say "excessive verbosity", we're talking about double (or even triple!) speech. It's less about making a judgement call
19:27:45 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's how we've used it historically (I think in order to avoid editorializing too much), but I'm certainly open to other perspectives from folks here on the call today
19:28:41 <jugglinmike> Hadi: It might not always been so cut-and-dry, though. For instance, reading the landmark of a containing element. Do we have any agreed-upon threshold for "excess"?
19:29:11 <jugglinmike> Hadi: I think that some guidance on these more subjective aspects is important to reach consistency
19:30:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't know if we've formally defined any such guidance, but I think that we generally ask, "is this justifiable" rather than "is this justified"?
19:30:33 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I am not assigned to this test
19:30:40 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: murray_moss is
19:30:47 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Oh! I'm sorry; I misspoke
19:32:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: IsaDC is assigned to two others in addition to "radio", so maybe it would be good to have Joe_Humbert take on this one instead
19:32:10 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Sounds good
19:32:17 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Okay, I have assigned myself
19:32:30 <jugglinmike> murray_moss: I'm still on track for completing this next week
19:34:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Are there any more questions on "radio button" planning?
19:35:17 <jugglinmike> Hadi: As I was running the "radio" test, at some stage (it may have been "tabbing" in virtual mode), I wondered: did JAWS switch from "virtual mode" to "PC mode"?
19:36:03 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Yes! I'm glad you saw that. We recently changed the way we format tests so that we can express expectations that are specific for individual commands.
19:36:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: ...the behavior your observed is a candidate for that new way of authoring tests
19:36:56 <jugglinmike> Hadi: I also wanted to mention that JAWS was behaving differently when I was on that page, so I restarted my computer to make sure I was in a good state
19:37:25 <jugglinmike> Hadi: Somehow, though, that behavior--switching from virtual mode to PC mode--it was doing that even when I was arrowing down from the field.
19:37:42 <jugglinmike> Hadi: Could it have been related to the test environment? Have you seen it before?
19:37:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I've seen it before. Not in our tests, but out in the wild. Mostly related to "edit" fields
19:38:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: there's nothing in our test environment that should cause that to happen when it's not supposed to
19:38:38 <jugglinmike> Hadi: Thank you!
19:38:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Any other questions?
19:38:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hearing none, we can adjourn.
19:39:09 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Thank you everybody. Happy testing. I love our new tests and how beautiful they are.
19:39:17 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: What tests are next?
19:40:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: "Dialog", "slider", and "action menu button". I'm pretty sure "dialog" is going to be the first of those, but we shall see. They'll probably all be ready at close to the same time, so we may be able to choose
19:40:25 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
19:40:25 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been IsaDC, James_Scholes, Alyssa_Gourley, Sam, Michael_Fairchild, MattKing, jugglinmike, Joe_Humbert, murray_moss
19:40:27 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
19:40:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim
19:40:35 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent, leave
19:40:35 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
19:40:35 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
19:40:35 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-at