IRC log of rqtf on 2024-03-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:40:02 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/03/27-rqtf-irc
12:40:06 [janina]
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12:40:06 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:40:07 [Zakim]
please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jasonjgw
12:40:14 [jasonjgw]
meeting: RQTF meeting
12:40:26 [DavidSwallow]
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12:40:37 [jasonjgw]
chair: jasonjgw
12:40:40 [jasonjgw]
present+
12:40:41 [jasonjgw]
scribe+
12:41:45 [jasonjgw]
agenda+ Collaboration Tools Accessibility User Requirements.
12:41:45 [jasonjgw]
agenda+ Miscellaneous updates and topics.
12:52:19 [janina]
present+
12:59:40 [DavidSwallow]
present+
13:00:13 [JPaton]
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13:00:37 [matatk]
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13:03:28 [lisa]
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13:03:58 [lisa]
present+
13:04:05 [matatk]
present+
13:04:31 [janina]
scribe+
13:04:31 [jasonjgw]
zakim, next item
13:04:31 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Collaboration Tools Accessibility User Requirements. -- taken up [from jasonjgw]
13:05:04 [JPaton]
present+ John_Paton
13:06:13 [janina]
jasonjgw: Summarizes we're here to discuss CTAU
13:06:24 [janina]
CTAUR progress ...
13:06:36 [webirc91]
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13:06:42 [janina]
jasonjgw: CTAUR is a doc in our *AUR series
13:06:55 [webirc91]
present+
13:07:10 [webirc91]
scribe+
13:07:15 [Raja_Kushalnagar]
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13:07:23 [webirc91]
present+ Jennie
13:07:32 [janina]
jasonjgw: CTAUR addresses collaborative aspects in synchronous and asynchronous tools
13:07:53 [janina]
jasonjgw: Thanks Dave for his liaisoning help
13:08:45 [janina]
jasonjgw: Notes RQTF addressed some COGA comments with edits of various kinds
13:09:13 [janina]
jasonjgw: Notes WD recently updated
13:09:41 [janina]
jasonjgw: Purpose today is to understand any further changes
13:10:01 [janina]
jasonjgw: RQTF believes CTAUR is nearing completion, so now is a good time to catch anything left
13:10:35 [janina]
jasonjgw: Today we want to focus on any remaining items
13:10:47 [janina]
jasonjgw: Invites Dave to move us forward ...
13:11:18 [janina]
DavidSwallow: Notes RQTF welcomed COGA comments
13:11:32 [janina]
DavidSwallow: Notes also COGA appreciates the attention received
13:12:07 [janina]
DavidSwallow: have attempted to organize issues around themes; some about scope; some about tracking
13:12:37 [janina]
DavidSwallow: some re language and structure
13:12:39 [janina]
q?
13:13:12 [janina]
q?
13:13:47 [janina]
DavidSwallow: Notes substantive edits to better address scope
13:14:34 [webirc91]
janina: I think we added language to clarify Github and other environments - we call that asynchronous
13:14:47 [webirc91]
...Revision control systems. They function similarly
13:15:05 [webirc91]
...We have synchronous and asynchronous in the explanatory notes.
13:15:53 [janina]
jasonjgw: We also clarified scope that we're discussing collab functionality as pertains to many kinds of content
13:16:15 [janina]
jasonjgw: So the features related to collaboration are in scope; and content editing specifics are not
13:17:37 [lisa]
q+
13:17:49 [janina]
DavidSwallow: Perhaps best to have COGA review
13:18:31 [janina]
lisa: Found intro para confused
13:18:33 [janina]
q+
13:18:37 [janina]
ack lis
13:19:30 [lisa]
"many of the gaps in WCAG on improving accessibility for people with cognitive and learning disabilities has been addressed in [coga-usable].
13:19:33 [webirc91]
janina: If you would like to propose changes, you can add a pull request
13:19:44 [webirc91]
...and we dropped some of the language based on the email this morning
13:19:56 [webirc91]
...No put down was intended
13:20:05 [webirc91]
...If a wording change helps, please suggest something
13:20:12 [webirc91]
Lisa: I will try my best
13:20:16 [webirc91]
janina: email is fine too.
13:20:33 [webirc91]
...Editorial considerations - share those
13:20:51 [janina]
ack ja
13:21:07 [janina]
subtopic: Reviewing History
13:21:56 [janina]
DavidSwallow: Several issues related to reviewing history were rejected; 50,
13:23:13 [janina]
DavidSwallow: Also a needs and reqs pair ...
13:23:25 [webirc91]
q+
13:23:28 [janina]
DavidSwallow: The user need and req seem a bit different to me
13:23:34 [lisa]
q+
13:24:38 [janina]
present+ Jenny
13:25:13 [janina]
jenny: Notes many environments she works with history of what happened affects a lot of groups I work with
13:25:24 [janina]
jenny: summary of what happened can be very important
13:25:29 [janina]
q+
13:25:33 [lisa]
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13:25:34 [janina]
ack web
13:25:45 [janina]
jenny: person cfan get easily disoriented
13:26:13 [webirc91]
janina: I think we tried to address this. I'm happy to suggest we can try to address it better.
13:26:30 [webirc91]
...We called out that multiple groups have this need.
13:26:47 [webirc91]
...We talk about needing to be able to focus, know specifically about one area.
13:26:57 [webirc91]
...I think we tripped up regarding summaries.
13:27:05 [webirc91]
...I think AI would be the most likely source.
13:27:27 [webirc91]
...I think we say something like this is better but humans completing this would be helpful.
13:28:33 [janina]
jasonjgw: Agrees edits to try and capture our sense of what ech can do, vs what we need humans to contribute
13:28:45 [janina]
q?
13:28:51 [janina]
ack ja
13:29:13 [janina]
ack li
13:30:00 [janina]
lisa: We're asking for consistent marking
13:30:13 [janina]
lisa: adding a directory would be consistently named
13:30:58 [janina]
lisa: consistent placement of where instructions are
13:31:17 [janina]
q+
13:32:00 [janina]
lisa: We're not asking authors to provide, but a consistent place were they can
13:32:16 [webirc91]
janina: To me, this sits between some environments do this, and some do not
13:32:34 [webirc91]
...We added section 9 about preferring things that are standard, and not inventing new ways to do things.
13:32:40 [webirc91]
...We did attempt to address this.
13:33:07 [janina]
janina: Sec 9 did attempt to address, happy if we can further clarify
13:33:38 [janina]
jasonjgw: Notes we're more than half way through the call ... Asks what's left of categories?
13:34:10 [janina]
subtopic: Other Items
13:34:15 [lisa]
Q+
13:34:25 [janina]
DavidSwallow: Issue 59 asking for a Common Pitfalls section
13:34:35 [lisa]
Q-
13:34:49 [janina]
DavidSwallow: COGA keen to see where these issues are actually in current draft
13:35:19 [webirc91]
janina: We could go item by item.
13:35:44 [webirc91]
...We discussed the piece about the reference to Making Content Usable.
13:35:53 [lisa]
Q+
13:35:56 [webirc91]
...I am not sure we have specifics here
13:36:13 [webirc91]
...Common pitfalls ... it is not just one type of environment or tool
13:36:20 [webirc91]
...I'm not sure which pitfalls are generalizable.
13:36:38 [webirc91]
...We did, where we thought we could expand it, expand over a number of recommendations.
13:37:07 [janina]
jasonjgw: Notes this doc, like others in the AUR set, is quite confined
13:37:35 [janina]
jasonjgw: We don't discuss in this doc topics covered in other W3C docs unless there's some nonobvious implication for the current doc
13:37:38 [janina]
q?
13:37:39 [janina]
q?
13:37:45 [janina]
ack ja
13:37:47 [janina]
ack li
13:38:19 [janina]
lisa: Common Pitfalls was our summary of problems COGA has experienced using github in W3C work
13:38:30 [janina]
lisa: unfamiliar terms like fork, branch
13:38:48 [janina]
lisa: Even others in W3C get confused
13:39:10 [janina]
lisa: Other is the complex work process
13:39:45 [janina]
lisa: Can make the process unusable for some COGA people (Executive function)
13:41:30 [janina]
lisa: Believes we're really talking about live regions; don't expect people to learn a new markup lang for your environment
13:41:45 [webirc91]
janina: That is section 9
13:41:48 [janina]
janina: That is Sec 9
13:42:26 [webirc91]
q+
13:42:33 [janina]
jasonjgw: Also edits where we note collab tools create barriers for others; i.e. multiple functions when collaborating
13:43:40 [webirc91]
janina: And in the introduction, talking about how they are complex in their nature
13:43:50 [lisa]
q+
13:43:53 [webirc91]
...I can't think of another document from the W3C like 1.5
13:44:09 [webirc91]
...Because you are looking for the benefit, while the tools need to support all kinds of situations
13:44:14 [webirc91]
...That needs to be built into the tool
13:44:24 [webirc91]
...The team needs to be aware of how to make everyone in the team functional
13:44:30 [webirc91]
...Why else did you invite them to the team
13:44:42 [webirc91]
...1.5 is sort of a trial balloon in technical guidance
13:44:46 [webirc91]
q?
13:45:29 [janina]
ack webirc91
13:45:48 [lisa]
+1 to jennie
13:45:52 [janina]
jenny: notes cog load in Sec 9; does it specify that can be an absolute barrier
13:45:53 [lisa]
needs to be in
13:46:00 [janina]
jasonjgw: If not clear, we can clarify
13:46:41 [janina]
jenny: helping people understand the difference for the general population vis a vis someone with a cognitive disability the enourmous impact it can have for some
13:46:46 [lisa]
+1
13:46:54 [janina]
jenny: could make the tool absolutely unusable
13:47:22 [webirc91]
janina: That is a general WAI principle
13:47:32 [webirc91]
...essential for some, useful for all - not the exact quote
13:48:25 [janina]
lisa: Don't see all the items in oujr comment;
13:48:49 [janina]
jasonjgw: There may or may not be established convfentions for devs to follow
13:49:11 [lisa]
q+
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13:49:53 [janina]
jasonjgw: we're unclear how much more we can say; what can be added
13:51:27 [janina]
lisa: if we can't say about what's not well defined, much else needs to be pulled from the doc
13:52:37 [lisa]
thank you everyone!!!
13:52:46 [janina]
DavidSwallow: Suggests a follow up section? There's still more to go through
13:52:50 [webirc91]
I really appreciate the discussion.
13:53:39 [janina]
Jenny, I want to appreciate your emphasis that some people will be completely disenfranchised whereas the general population is just inconvenienced. I will look through the doc for making that clearer
13:54:15 [janina]
jasonjgw: Asks for people to volunteer on follow up
13:54:20 [webirc91]
Thank you Janina, and apologies if I missed it! It was in one of the issue responses David had brought up, so just bringing it back to the group's awareness.
13:54:22 [janina]
present+ scott
13:54:33 [janina]
scott: Thanks everyone for their participation and time
13:56:13 [lisa]
thanks again everyone
13:57:00 [jasonjgw]
zakim, end meeting
13:57:00 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been jasonjgw, janina, DavidSwallow, lisa, matatk, John_Paton, webirc, Jennie, Jenny, scott
13:57:02 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
13:57:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/27-rqtf-minutes.html Zakim
13:57:10 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, jasonjgw; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
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