18:57:20 RRSAgent has joined #matf 18:57:25 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/03/25-matf-irc 18:57:25 RRSAgent, make logs Public 18:57:26 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jj 18:57:33 Zakim, this is MATF March 25, 2024 18:57:33 got it, jj 18:57:39 present+ 18:58:06 TOPIC: Updated Work Statement - broader scope 19:02:21 present+ 19:02:23 RacheleDiTullio has joined #matf 19:02:32 QuintinB has joined #MATF 19:02:33 AlainVagner has joined #matf 19:04:16 scribenick: hdv 19:04:27 Mick has joined #MATF 19:05:11 jj: the work statement has been reviewed in the taskforce, outside and by W3C staff… conclusion from this review round is that we'd need to broaden scope to the mobile space, to include web applications and webviews 19:05:19 present+ 19:05:20 jj: sharing the link… 19:05:20 Work Statement: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q5ggj1BedAKlxugFn9xxahKbKgZeeZsxytdw-o1HQsE/edit 19:05:58 jj: I didn't have time yet to process all the notes… 19:06:09 jj: one is to change native applications to mobile applications 19:06:52 jj: where we say native applications 19:07:47 kim_patch has joined #MATF 19:08:04 jj: for the 5th bullet in Scope of Work, where we talk about adding native mobile techniques, we removed that entirely 19:09:04 jj: for the timeline, it looks like we have been a little optimistic, we've almost reached april so phase 1 is over, but still has some work items left 19:09:10 jj: any comments on the scope? 19:09:24 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q5ggj1BedAKlxugFn9xxahKbKgZeeZsxytdw-o1HQsE/edit 19:09:24 q+ 19:09:58 ack hdv 19:10:13 hdv: on the 6th item, which kind of resources would we be updating? 19:10:46 jj: basically the mapping document and other sources that is in the Google Drive, as well as the old wiki. Mostly documents outside the W3C domain 19:11:26 Topic: MATF Meeting Matrix - picking a day/time 19:11:33 jj: 13 people filled out the meeting matrix 19:11:41 jj: quite a lot of people are in GMT+1 19:12:19 jj: 2 are in +8 and a few people in -5… we might have to do two different meetings, one in even and another in odd weeks 19:12:28 jj: I'll do some suggestions to figure out what to do 19:14:29 [ checking who's in the matrix ] 19:16:22 [ introductions from Rachel DiTullio and Quintin Balsdon ] 19:17:13 [ introduction from Tori ] 19:18:00 Topic: Guidance structure 19:18:54 jj: there are multiple options for structure… we could structure it like WCAG itself, or we could list considerations like it is done in the current mobile accessibility working group note 19:19:04 jj: what would be most usable for you? 19:20:31 tori: I was thinking… there are considerations for mobile that need to start at design or even concept… and then there's issues specific to implementation, where it is most important that things stay accessible 19:20:47 What I think is missing is some kind of tagging system, for quick topics and summary. However, I do like the exiting structure because it lends itself to being parseable and can be made into a diagram like Intopia's map: https://intopia.digital/articles/intopia-launches-wcag-2-2-map/ 19:21:57 QuintinB: some kind of tagging system on each of the criteria would be very useful, so that it is more clear what kind of role is involved with identifying and fixing the issue 19:22:28 QuintinB: would help us create smaller chunks of data… you can represent WCAG in a JSON file which allows you to restructure it as expanding guidelines, I like that 19:22:51 present+ AlainVagner 19:22:57 present+ RacheleDiTullio 19:23:04 QuintinB: we might have to reasses A/AA/AAA based on what the platform is 19:23:07 present+ Tori_Clark 19:23:17 present+ Karla_Rubiano 19:23:32 present+ Jamie_Herrera 19:24:09 QuintinB: the other thing I would think of is bubbling up to a more generic WCAG and then have a web content WCAG and an mobile WCAG 19:26:16 Evinced MCAG: https://github.com/GetEvinced/mcag 19:26:46 tori: I wonder if there's a value to dissect if we want a mobile specific set of guidelines to also include user agent guidelines? 19:26:57 tori: being explicit is something current WCAG does not always do 19:27:18 tori: to make it explicit and specific would be very helpful 19:28:09 jj: agreed 19:28:23 jj: are there other guidelines, public or internal ones at work, that people use? 19:29:03 JamieHerrera: the Human Interface guidelines and Material UI guidelines are helpful 19:29:19 JamieHerrera: one thing that's a gap in WCAG I think, important for mobile apps, is the content grouping piece 19:29:34 JamieHerrera: it's an example of an opportunity to fill gaps where WCAG is not enough 19:30:38 jj: I think Kim knows better, but the previous MATF has done suggestions for best practices and success criteria in WCAG 2.* 19:31:16 Kim: what's most useful is to come up with user examples, there are some of those in WCAG 19:31:36 Mobile Accessibility Mapping: https://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-accessibility-mapping/ 19:31:46 Kim: these are quite old, the ones n on the current website, but this is the kind of very clear example that would be useful, eg this user has this need because of this and this 19:33:11 Kim: some of them are in https://www.w3.org/TR/IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20/mobile 19:33:13 Mobile Accessibility Examples from UAA: https://www.w3.org/TR/IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20/mobile 19:33:34 JamieHerrera: seems to be web examples 19:33:58 Kim: yes, but could do something like that for native mobile too… useful to write examples like these and get them in the documents 19:35:18 QuintinB: I really appreciate in all of WCAG that it is technology agnostic 19:35:55 jj: wearables could be interesting to look at too 19:36:41 Jamie: would hesitate to add that to the current iteration though, could be a completely different task force 19:37:44 Jamie: to help us stay focused 19:37:55 jj: we could make that explicit too 19:39:00 Google's CSUN slides: https://sites.google.com/view/csun2024/google-sessions 19:40:29 RacheleDiTullio: we went to a session on keyboard testing. Thought it was pretty interesting that keyboard shortcuts are underdocumented 19:41:18 jj: agreed that iOS and Android lack a support page or something that has all the keyboard shortcuts 19:41:31 QuintinB: and they aren't labelled very well in the interface eitehr 19:41:36 s/eitehr/either 19:41:47 Jamie: ctrl+tab is really the workhorse for keyboard movement in iOS 19:42:51 Jamie: arrow keys are also helpful to get around but not great for getting to individual actions. Also not clear for user 19:43:14 s/user/users 19:43:28 CSUN resources: Keyboard accessibility testing on mobile devices by Moaan Ahmed, Sam Ogami and Purva Sane (slides) https://github.com/workday-accessibility/accessibility-eval/blob/main/keyboard.md https://workday.app.box.com/s/ygn1057yknn71mjz9v7tn4aoy32k25dl Mobile Content Accessibility Guidelines by Illai Zeevi https://getevinced.github.io/mcag/ Building Accessible Mobile Products by Perrin Anto https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yadfEBQJfIIK7EUwu-IQIs4[CUT] 19:43:41 Keyboard accessibility testing on mobile devices by Moaan Ahmed, Sam Ogami and Purva Sane (slides) https://github.com/workday-accessibility/accessibility-eval/blob/main/keyboard.md https://workday.app.box.com/s/ygn1057yknn71mjz9v7tn4aoy32k25dl 19:43:45 Mobile Content Accessibility Guidelines by Illai Zeevi https://getevinced.github.io/mcag/\ 19:43:50 Building Accessible Mobile Products by Perrin Anto https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yadfEBQJfIIK7EUwu-IQIs4PWcnoXh-Y/view 19:43:53 Lessons Learned from Mobile App Accessibility Testing by Rachele DiTullio https://racheleditullio.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/Lessons-learned-from-mobile-app-accessibility-testing.pptx 19:43:57 Mind the Gap: Navigating Accessible Web & Mobile App Design by Julian Kittelson-Aldred https://1drv.ms/p/s!Ausu1Z4YE7u3gZweP6dDCr9uG4KSvg?e=ifKjV4 19:44:02 Perspectives on Phone Use from People with Limited Dexterity by Lauren Winston and Kristi Saney https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1MzRqVgZCjnCcICEnR8oi3vBqkazU71Wm/edit#slide=id.p1 19:44:05 State of Native Mobile Accessibility Standards & Testing by Joe Humbert https://app.box.com/s/m08lijr6a59wc251mwi4lhpdbkekx056/file/1472738656276 19:44:07 Jamie: one thing to look at for this group would be to look at which WCAG criteria don't apply to apps 19:44:14 Jamie: I know there's some on appt.org 19:45:07 The keyboard GitHub link from CSUN: https://github.com/workday-accessibility/accessibility-eval/blob/main/keyboard.md 19:45:35 Jamie: another would be to look at the intended experience for the app user that is very different from desktop 19:46:04 Jamie: another issue we look at regularly is how designers make a UI fit on a smaller screen, sometimes a different kind of experience people are looking for, not just a smaller screen version 19:46:18 Jamie: so something around designing for mobile is lacking in the current space 19:46:37 Keyboards on mobile also present a lot of friction for developers because learning all the tricks for speedy navigation can be overwhelming and feel like a small win. It's not our job to teach them but acknowledging the lift with resources could be useful 19:47:38 jj: there is also a lot of difference between vendors and how they deal with keyhboard accessibility… potentially we can publish some of those resources and/or add them to our list of external resources 19:47:53 At least having some guideline about being consistant with the platform might be useful 19:48:44 Jamie: what would the process be for former members to potentially come back? we may be able to get participation from folks at Apple and Google who were former MATF 19:48:56 Jamie: if the focus would include mobile app accessibility 19:49:48 jj: seems like not everyone is aware we focus on native now and have been restarting since the start of this year 19:50:09 jj: to make it a success we'll need people from the larger companies, especially the ones who have their own guidelines 19:50:24 jj: we'll probably also get people from testing companies to join 19:53:47 jj: interesting topics today re keyboard accessibility. Probably also want to look at mapping specific properties between mobile and web eg how names are computed 19:55:05 jj: another interesting topic is localisation of labels in languages other than English 19:55:42 Kim: as someone who's used voice to text on computers for a long time, wanted to add it could be so much better 19:55:52 kim_patch: if the user could control which elements they are using that would make it a lot better 19:56:03 s/Kim/kim_patch 19:56:32 kim_patch: speech is less mature than it could be 19:57:27 Jamie: a lot of the accessibility labels are intended as hint text, in which case it often doesn't work well 19:58:41 kim_patch: re keyboard shortcuts…there was this project around standardising labels/shortcuts for voice… I don't think all of it is up anymore but there is some WCAG history in an attempt to make it not about keyboard only 19:58:53 kim_patch: seems like that's even more needed today,with mobile 20:00:36 Zakim, end meeting please 20:00:36 As of this point the attendees have been jj, hdv, Mick, AlainVagner, RacheleDiTullio, Tori_Clark, Karla_Rubiano, Jamie_Herrera 20:00:38 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 20:00:39 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/25-matf-minutes.html Zakim 20:00:46 I am happy to have been of service, hdv; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 20:00:46 Zakim has left #matf