16:55:42 RRSAgent has joined #aria 16:55:47 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/03/21-aria-irc 16:55:47 RRSAgent, make logs Public 16:55:48 Meeting: ARIA WG 16:55:48 agendabot, find agenda 16:55:48 jamesn, OK. This may take a minute... 16:55:48 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b57854a-65cb-421e-b9e0-f9a8da31f160/20240321T130000/ 16:55:48 clear agenda 16:55:48 agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/y5zbrepb 16:55:48 agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/4vwt78ss 16:55:50 agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y 16:55:53 agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates 16:55:55 agenda+ -> aria-keyshortcuts needs attention - should we schedule co-meeting? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2141 16:55:59 agenda+ -> Discourage authors from using role=none/presentation on table cells (and maybe list items) https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2135 16:56:02 agenda+ -> Clarify whether author errors in "required accessibility parent/child" (formerly "required context") should be handled by UA https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2137 16:56:05 agenda+ -> Consider switching to ROLE_SYSTEM_LISTITEM on MSAA + IAccessible2 https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/223 16:56:09 agenda+ -> Data grid example, form field missing accessible name https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2148 16:56:12 agenda+ -> marquee and timer listed as live region roles but have intrinsic aria-live="off" https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2144 16:57:53 agenda+ No Meeting April 11, 2024 16:58:08 zakim, order is 1,2,11,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 16:58:08 sorry, jamesn, I do not recognize a party named 'order' 16:59:02 zakim, agenda order is 1,2,11,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 16:59:02 ok, jamesn 16:59:15 spectranaut_ has joined #aria 17:01:04 Francis_Storr has joined #aria 17:02:08 chair: JamesNurthen 17:02:48 scotto has joined #aria 17:03:56 present+ Daniel 17:04:00 giacomo-petri has joined #aria 17:04:04 present+ 17:04:12 present+ 17:04:24 present+ 17:04:29 scribe: Rahim 17:04:32 Present+ 17:04:43 present+ 17:04:44 zakim, next item 17:04:44 agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/y5zbrepb -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:04:54 pkra has joined #aria 17:04:57 present+ 17:05:00 katez has joined #aria 17:05:06 present+ 17:05:13 CurtBellew has joined #aria 17:05:30 q+ 17:05:50 present+ 17:06:00 jamesn: aria #2152: my initial understanding is that this is not the same thing as aria-required. Requested in the past for checkboxes 17:06:26 mario_Batusic: Not totally the same, but required at least once (or more) 17:06:53 present+ 17:07:16 q+ 17:07:21 scotto: Allowing aria-required to be used at group level would not solve this use case; would trickle down, every element is exposed. We've had this discussion multiple times before citing similar examples; level of effort to make this work is roughly assigning required attributes on elements 17:07:29 sarah_h has joined #aria 17:07:32 ack scotto 17:07:36 ack jamesn 17:08:07 jamesn: would echo what Scott said; to make it meaningful for non-SR users, need to have visible text explaining that you must fill in one of the things (use aria-describedby in this case anyway) 17:09:08 mario_Batusic: can use an asterisk 17:09:23 jamesn: can this be closed as "not going to implement"? 17:09:31 mario_Batusic: would appreciate setting aria-required on the group 17:09:55 jamesn: if you'd like to write up an explainer, you can do that. aria-required may not be the right attribute 17:10:21 scotto: it's worth reviewing other closed issues that are about this with rationale on why we did not go forward with this 17:10:38 q+ 17:10:53 ack spectranaut_ 17:11:29 spectranaut_: in the editor's meeting, we talked about adding labels with aria attributes so it's easy to find issues related to an attribute (e.g., searching for "aria-required"). It would be nice to search all closed issues about aria-required, wanted to let the ARIA WG know this and we should add the label to this issue 17:12:02 Francis_Storr: would agree with this (aria #2152), I like this idea on supplying aria-required 17:13:19 q+ 17:13:26 ...could be the element at the group level (not individual form controls) that could be in an invalid state 17:14:19 jamesn: the idea of a required checkbox doesn't make sense to me 17:14:27 https://github.com/openui/open-ui/issues/487 17:14:38 ack scotto 17:15:18 zakim, next item 17:15:18 agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/4vwt78ss -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:16:27 jamesn: for accname #234, need to create tests for this 17:16:32 Rahim: I can look into it 17:18:05 Rahim: James C. recently rewrote white space utility function for WPT testing, good time to test 17:18:20 ...white space utility function for computing label* 17:19:12 scotto: html-aam #537: would disagree with HTML definition 17:20:20 jamesn: for accname #233: similar to #234 and white space issue 17:20:30 Rahim: I can take this one as well 17:21:46 jamesn: html-aam #538 still needs more work before merge, over to Rahim as well 17:22:07 Matt_King has joined #aria 17:22:38 ...relates to values and associated states 17:22:44 present+ 17:23:41 jcraig: also look into what a11y notifications are being sent 17:24:49 zakim, next item 17:24:49 agendum 11 -- No Meeting April 11, 2024 -- taken up [from jamesn] 17:25:07 jamesn: I will cancel the calendar entry for Apr 11; James N/Val on vacation 17:25:17 zakim, next item 17:25:17 agendum 11 was just opened, Rahim 17:25:26 zakim, close this item 17:25:26 agendum 11 closed 17:25:27 I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:25:27 3. -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y [from agendabot] 17:25:29 zakim, next item 17:25:29 agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:25:48 jamesn: James C., any that you want people to review? 17:26:22 jongund has joined #aria 17:26:52 jcraig: if anybody wants to review, and can review, please jump on it 17:30:24 zakim, next item 17:30:24 agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:30:54 jamesn: list of deep dive topics is building up again 17:31:43 sarah_h: yes, happy to schedule something. I'll be out mid April but next week works 17:32:31 zakim, next item 17:32:31 agendum 5 -- -> aria-keyshortcuts needs attention - should we schedule co-meeting? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2141 -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:33:15 jamesn: this is a question for the WG. He offered to do a joint call to discuss but James C. said the issue is clear enough and don't need a joint call 17:33:35 jcraig: if Addison is willing to write a PR that fixes it, that would be the most efficient way to do it 17:33:54 ...if a meeting is preferred to coach one of us (ARIA WG) to write a PR, we can do that. Feedback seems reasonable 17:34:38 jcraig: Google is the driver for this, and Google docs is one of the largest users of this, would prefer if someone from that team is there. But if Addison writes the PR, don't need Google involvement 17:35:13 jamesn: don't feel that much other stuff than editorial needs to change, i.e., address localization/language concerns 17:35:47 zakim, next item 17:35:47 agendum 6 -- -> Discourage authors from using role=none/presentation on table cells (and maybe list items) https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2135 -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:36:23 q+ 17:36:26 jamesn: we may have spoken about this (perhaps in triage). I wanted to talk about this more...what do folks think about this? 17:36:33 q+ 17:36:44 q+ 17:37:15 ack scotto 17:37:44 scotto: for aria #2135, I don't think it's bad to have authoring guidance but don't think this is the right place to put it. I'm thinking of situations where people need to put presentation role on a native cell so they can add additional custom cells inside of it, to fix table markup (because native markup can't be changed). Absolutely agree with the sentiment here , but ARIA may not be the right place for this 17:37:48 ack Matt_King 17:39:03 Matt_King: trying to parse what Scott just said; I was going to say it almost feels like anytime a role is a required a11y child...I'm trying to think of a situation where you end up with a list item in a list that doesn't have a role, what is it? This may always result in an invalid a11y tree, how would it not? 17:39:05 Q+ 17:39:09 q+ 17:40:05 scotto: I'm describing a situation where someone has created a table but a column of the table is exposed as two separate columns so they put role="none" on native HTML elements (which is what this issue is about); someone then has added two
s to the HTML elements and put the necessary roles on those so the native elements' role has been suppressed, they've re-added the necessary roles to re-create the table markup as intended 17:40:11 ack sarah_h 17:41:26 ack CoryJoseph 17:41:35 sarah_h: I have another example: when we were making our date picker, we had native markup; at one point it was working better with "gridcell" but pros and cons to both approaches. In another example, we had fixed headers on a table; used CSS to fix headers but had to use role="presentation" on native elements. I can see an author warning to ensure correct usage, but a MUST NOT/SHOULD NOT author guidance may be warranted 17:42:30 CoryJoseph: I just ran into a case where this is happening on a list item and it was a breaking issue; it made the content disappear from the a11y tree (in a bad way). Similar to the example that Sarah just described but implementation broke everything. I'm leaning towards Scott's opinion that this feels like a hack to fix something in table structure 17:42:32 ack jamesn 17:43:07 jamesn: Would echo Scott/Sarah's thoughts; we needed this to work around various issues in the past but I agree it shouldn't be a prohibition. If done, you must ensure robust testing and make sure everything works 17:44:04 example of what i was talking about - https://codepen.io/scottohara/pen/LYvWvKK 17:44:11 Matt_King: Is there a way to say something such as: if you override the role of a required a11y child then you MUST do something. What would be the wording for these types of scenarios? 17:44:50 jamesn: Should we add warning language for this? 17:45:12 scotto: I'm not against adding warning language at all; I can't think of how it would be written. Sounds like an authoring practices guide topic 17:45:46 Matt_King: We have this in the APG and provide some forms of guidance; there's space to add real guidance on the damage it could do and things one should be careful about 17:46:06 jamesn: We could put a section in ARIA spec section 5.2.6; this could be the place to put it 17:46:33 ...should we file a child APG issue? 17:47:05 Matt_King: OK (you can assign aria #2135 to me) so long as there is a comment in the issue to clarify the assignment 17:47:14 zakim, next item 17:47:14 agendum 7 -- -> Clarify whether author errors in "required accessibility parent/child" (formerly "required context") should be handled by UA https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2137 17:47:17 ... -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:48:36 spectranaut_: it was put on the agenda a long time ago; James C. found the spec reference he was looking for talking about orphaned roles where required a11y parent isn't present. Spec says you shouldn't surface the role in this situation 17:49:38 jcraig: A couple reasons I haven't closed this: I haven't had a chance to review html-aam and also, this is a good test case to determine if implementation is having difficulty with this, this is a good example where we can roll the normative requirement back. Mozilla was the filer for this issue and had some of the best support, but there are different failures across engines (Gecko, Chrome) 17:49:56 ...leave this one open and assign to me 17:50:07 qv? 17:50:46 scotto: there are instances in html-aam where these things are called out. I recall filings bugs, e.g., elements put inside
element (e.g., Gecko exposed those as buttons but they didn't do anything). This may be one reason why they were making cleanups for similar issues 17:50:55 agenda? 17:51:27 jcraig: There was another one that came up similar to this; if you intersperse a
in between a list or list item, the list item still gets a bullet. In this scenario, we need an exception to ignore the role 17:51:42 ...I haven't dug through the browser comparisons on whether browsers are rendering the bullet 17:52:37 ...if the UAs are rendering it, we should make what they're rendering accessible 17:53:16 jamesn: Could end up with a 5 item list made up of 5 individual lists 17:54:03 q+ 17:54:23 jcraig: recommending that we don't hide the list semantics, align with how it's visually rendered 17:54:26 ack scotto 17:54:50 scotto: Worth bringing up to CSS folks, they may not have considered this edge case 17:55:13 ...I can file the CSS issue for this 17:55:35 agenda? 17:56:15 present+ 17:56:41 Matt_King: A question: after I create the issue for aria #2135; James N. recommends waiting for APG response on next steps 17:58:13 rrsagent, make minutes 17:58:15 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/21-aria-minutes.html Rahim 18:58:59 jongund has joined #aria 20:39:19 jongund has joined #aria 20:39:41 jongund has joined #aria 20:41:49 jongund has joined #aria 21:38:32 jongund has joined #aria 23:47:12 jongund has joined #aria