13:57:17 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pwe
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13:57:21 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:57:22 <Zakim> Meeting: Positive Work Environment CG
13:57:48 <wendyreid> date: 2024-03-19
13:57:55 <wendyreid> chair: wendyreid, tzviya
14:07:31 <sheila> sheila has joined #pwe
14:07:39 <sheila> present+
14:08:31 <tzviya> present+
14:09:19 <wendyreid> present+
14:09:34 <JenStrickland> JenStrickland has joined #pwe
14:09:40 <JenStrickland> present+
14:09:45 <tzviya> regrets+ David
14:09:48 <csarven> present+
14:09:56 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/policies/code-of-conduct/
14:10:11 <wendyreid> scribe+
14:10:17 <wendyreid> tzviya: We published!
14:10:29 <wendyreid> ... as soon as we published, we got some comments and we're hoping to sneak it in
14:10:38 <wendyreid> ... there's an acknowledgements section and we forgot to update it
14:10:54 <wendyreid> ... there's a lot of people who contributed to this update, since we've been working on it for 4 years
14:11:05 <wendyreid> ... there's people who contributed who's names don't appear
14:11:57 <wendyreid> ... we're unsure how to approach editing the contributors
14:11:57 <sheila> q+
14:12:02 <wendyreid> ... thought we'd ask for advice
14:12:10 <wendyreid> ... we want to update
14:12:29 <wendyreid> ... typically a group adds all members, but we have a lot of members who do not attend
14:12:44 <csarven> q+
14:12:47 <wendyreid> ... we forgot a few important people
14:12:50 <tzviya> ack sheila
14:15:13 <wendyreid> [discussing contributor eligibility]
14:15:17 <tzviya> ack csarven
14:16:17 <tzviya> q+
14:16:29 <wendyreid> csarven: The complaints being mentioned, was it within PWE or elsewhere, was it reported or processed in any way? The optics might matter for attribution
14:17:07 <wendyreid> ... or if it's "I've observed this person violating the code..." but the process to handle it has not been followed yet
14:17:31 <wendyreid> sheila: Makes sense to me
14:17:32 <tzviya> ack me
14:17:48 <wendyreid> tzviya: What makes this challenging, the reporting mechanisms are inadequate
14:17:56 <wendyreid> ... we got comments on the ombuds situation
14:18:09 <csarven> q+
14:18:10 <wendyreid> ... it's true, we've been working on it, Sheila has been working on it
14:18:15 <wendyreid> ... it's out of our hands
14:18:33 <wendyreid> ... if confidentiality were in place, and this was reported, we'd not know if it was handled
14:18:52 <csarven> q-
14:19:10 <sheila> q+
14:19:20 <wendyreid> ... I don't want to know details, but I'm uncomfortable with removing someone based on what others' allude to
14:19:22 <tzviya> ack sheila
14:19:26 <wendyreid> ... confidentiality issues
14:19:32 <wendyreid> sheila: I understand someone raising it
14:19:48 <wendyreid> ... it's hard to see people credited who haven't followed the spirit of the document
14:20:13 <wendyreid> ... I wonder if there's a world where they haven't been removed from the organization, as long as they are still a member, they are credited
14:20:31 <wendyreid> ... we don't have the context or the authority to determine whose violations are bad enough to warrant removal
14:20:50 <wendyreid> ... that's maybe as far as we can go with it
14:20:59 <wendyreid> ... don't feel comfortable ranking violations against each other
14:21:25 <wendyreid> JenStrickland: We're in a weird place, the ombuds program is not working, there's not always proper resolution for issues even now
14:22:31 <wendyreid> ... we have to be neutral
14:22:33 <wendyreid> q+
14:22:39 <tzviya> ack wendyreid
14:24:29 <csarven> q+
14:24:48 <sheila> +1
14:24:51 <wendyreid> tzviya: Might be worth doing as a paragraph of contributors
14:25:04 <Ralph> [Ralph joins]
14:25:31 <wendyreid> csarven: Separate topic maybe, in the SOLID CG, we have a code of conduct, we also acknowledge the W3C code
14:25:33 <tzviya> wendyreid: It is tricky but this document is still unique. We wouldn't have this discussion if it was a technical document. And we do have the culture of ack'ing and giving credit where it is due. It could be arbitrary / and weaponised. I can also see the other side seeing someone's name...
14:26:16 <tzviya> ack csarven
14:26:17 <wendyreid> ... our code of conduct extends the W3C one, we have enforcement to a certain extent, improve the work space where possible
14:26:48 <wendyreid> ... I'm curious to know, if this is a rare thing in W3C to have their own CoC committee or enforcement processes
14:27:02 <csarven> Solid CoC: https://github.com/solid/process/blob/main/code-of-conduct.md
14:29:26 <wendyreid> [giving Ralph an overview of discussion so far]
14:30:03 <tzviya> q?
14:31:03 <wendyreid> Ralph: My intuition is that removing someone from a published list may raise flags, but updating it with people who need to be included is reasonable
14:31:20 <sheila> q+
14:31:29 <wendyreid> sheila:
14:31:31 <tzviya> ack sheila
14:34:29 <wendyreid> s/sheila://
14:34:40 <wendyreid> tzviya: Sheila, any update on ombuds?
14:34:48 <wendyreid> sheila: I met with Seth, it's on his priority list
14:35:04 <wendyreid> ... he is going to do more thinking on internal vs external but is leaning towards external
14:35:12 <wendyreid> ... I'm going to send him some resources
14:35:23 <wendyreid> ... challenge is finding ombuds who aren't academic-focused
14:35:35 <wendyreid> ... resources for sourcing outside those institutions
14:36:05 <wendyreid> JenStrickland: Would there be something that's more conflict-mediation oriented? Non-violent communication practitioners
14:36:44 <wendyreid> sheila: I'm looking at that, and we're looking at mediators/investigators, and I'm talking with the ombuds association to try and find options, I've only done this in the US
14:36:47 <wendyreid> ... we need international
14:36:53 <wendyreid> tzviya: Thanks
14:37:09 <tzviya> s/ombuds association/international ombuds association
14:40:18 <wendyreid> tzviya: Now that the code is published and ombuds is moving, what now?
14:40:36 <wendyreid> Ralph: I would love to see effort put into what kinds of activities we can do to increase positivity
14:40:46 <sheila> q+
14:40:57 <tzviya> ack sheila
14:40:57 <wendyreid> ... what can we do during remote meetings, in person meetings, etc
14:41:02 <wendyreid> ... help us feel more connected
14:41:34 <wendyreid> sheila: Dispute resolution guidelines, I did one of the AC onboarding videos, and I wanted to talk about dispute resolution
14:41:44 <wendyreid> ... I know we're working on ombuds and mediators
14:41:49 <wendyreid> ... a priority for me too
14:42:02 <csarven> q+
14:42:49 <wendyreid> tzviya: We put it on ice a bit since we didn't know how to proceed
14:43:07 <tzviya> ack csarven
14:43:08 <wendyreid> wendyreid: We need to have it reviewed, but we did want to publish parts of it that we felt good about
14:43:57 <wendyreid> csarven: If any group were to provide training, it would be this group, to come in and understand the code and facilitate the meetings
14:44:07 <wendyreid> ... more training for community groups
14:44:18 <wendyreid> ... a lot of the encounters I have, I think people are unaware of the code
14:44:28 <wendyreid> ... or at least unaware of its contents
14:44:44 <wendyreid> ... training for chairs to be more understanding of dynamics
14:44:58 <wendyreid> ... more to it than common sense, why the code exists and what are our expectations
14:45:25 <wendyreid> ... even in SOLID's case, we run into cases where we're not sure how to handle something
14:45:39 <wendyreid> ... we're hoping that there can be more input to make CGs a better work space
14:45:45 <tzviya> q+ to mention translations
14:45:56 <wendyreid> ... this group can help educate and train the wider community on the code and its contents
14:46:33 <sheila> love the idea of a resource and training hub around the CoC etc
14:46:51 <Ralph> s/CoC/Code
14:47:01 <wendyreid> JenStrickland: Sarven brings up an interesting point, there is the training, but maybe members of PWE can go to groups to help educate them
14:47:56 <sheila> q+
14:48:08 <tzviya> ack Ralph
14:48:08 <Zakim> Ralph, you wanted to mention terminology
14:50:33 <JenStrickland> C.O.C. is such a common acronym. It's not like it's used as the curse word, spoken as a rooster, for example. The irony that Sheila works for Bocoup with their rooster makes me lol.
14:52:51 <wendyreid> tzviya: We've done talks, we've done sessions on running better meetings
14:53:06 <tzviya> ack me
14:53:06 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to mention translations
14:53:08 <wendyreid> ... in terms of speaking about the code, it's not done yet, an overview for chairs to do
14:53:18 <wendyreid> ... giving chairs a script to run through
14:53:26 <wendyreid> q+
14:53:44 <wendyreid> tzviya: I haven't looked at this in a while, but to give chairs materials to work with
14:53:46 <tzviya> ack shei
14:54:15 <wendyreid> sheila: I really love the suggestion, I wonder if we could do an activity to identify the biggest pain points, look at the resources, and then see if we're covering them
14:54:28 <wendyreid> ... look at our resource library and filling the gaps
14:54:39 <wendyreid> ... here is an organized set of resources
14:54:52 <wendyreid> ... here's a way for us to be proactive
14:54:58 <tzviya> ack wendyreid
14:57:25 <sheila> q+
14:57:31 <JenStrickland> q+
14:57:35 <wendyreid> wendyreid: Let's build up those resources! We should bring back the chairs meeting, and more training and resource opportunities
14:58:27 <wendyreid> csarven: I think as a side effect, by attracting more individuals to the conduct, we can improve behaviour and work
14:58:43 <tzviya> ack sheila
14:59:02 <wendyreid> sheila: Wanted to add, we also could revisit the conversation of the tenor of the listserv
14:59:26 <wendyreid> ... resource lists, next steps on dispute resolution, something around listservs and moderation
14:59:35 <tzviya> ack JenStrickland
15:00:14 <wendyreid> JenStrickland: The trainings that Wendy held had lower attendance, maybe it's worth having PWE do sessions with groups presenting the training, as a conversation too
15:00:42 <wendyreid> ... get feedback and information on challenges groups have about implementing positive work environments and inclusion in their groups
15:00:56 <sheila> +1 to the idea of a tour, once we have our resources gathered!
15:01:40 <wendyreid> ... what we're doing in PWE is what W3C wants, more collaboration, more inclusion, more technical development that benefits society
15:02:08 <wendyreid> ... a good example is the sustainability group, they work hard to work together
15:02:26 <wendyreid> ... an opportunity for us to help
15:02:29 <wendyreid> tzviya: Thanks Jen
15:02:52 <wendyreid> ... I think we need to gather resources, then it would be interesting to see if we can pull something like that off, if groups are willing to spare their time
15:03:21 <wendyreid> JenStrickland: Maybe a requirement for groups, to address issues that have been reported, or to prevent them
15:04:04 <wendyreid> tzviya: I hear what you're saying, I'm not sure we can change groups but stepping in, but it needs some thought on how to proceed
15:05:28 <wendyreid> ... we need to sell it by convincing them that this will improve their product, their work
15:05:36 <cwilso> present+
15:05:50 <Ralph> [CWilso joins]
15:06:15 <wendyreid> ... here's how diversity can improve your specification
15:06:37 <wendyreid> ... first step, lets get our ducks in a row
15:06:45 <wendyreid> ... get the documents organized
15:06:58 <wendyreid> zakim, end meeting
15:06:58 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been sheila, tzviya, wendyreid, JenStrickland, csarven, cwilso
15:07:00 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
15:07:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/19-pwe-minutes.html Zakim
15:07:10 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:07:10 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pwe
15:07:18 <wendyreid> rrsagent, make logs public
15:07:29 <wendyreid> rrsagent, bye
15:07:29 <RRSAgent> I see no action items